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Old 11-12-2014, 02:43 PM   #1
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Difference between stock and catback?

I am thinking about a borla catback but was wondering if it is really that different from stock. I know axle back makes a big difference in sound but do the over axle pipes really add anything? Are they different diameters?

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Old 11-12-2014, 03:58 PM   #2
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Having a larger diameter pipe isn't a bad thing. Usually a catback comes with 2.5" pipe compared to 2.25". Also if it's stainless the tone will be slightly different.
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Old 11-12-2014, 03:58 PM   #3
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Stock is 2.25 and the catback will be 2.5 it will add a little hp it's a good idea if u plan on doing ur headers and mid pipe

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Old 11-12-2014, 04:08 PM   #4
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I had this discussion with Ken the lead calibrator at MPT when I was considering 2.75" GT over axle pipes. In his experience, the stock 2.25" is more than enough for the 3.7, he said the only reason he would suggest moving to 2.5 would be for mid to high level boost.

Past that, you're losing some backpressure and thus low end torque.

I had a 2.5" catback and came back to my stock 2.25" overaxles . I feel increased low end torque. I do miss the deep tone the bigger pipes gave, but I unwittingly sacrificed performance.

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Old 11-12-2014, 04:20 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14mustang v6 View Post
Stock is 2.25 and the catback will be 2.5 it will add a little hp it's a good idea if u plan on doing YOU'R headers and mid pipe

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FALSE
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyM91 View Post
I had this discussion with Ken the lead calibrator at MPT when I was considering 2.75" GT over axle pipes. In his experience, the stock 2.25" is more than enough for the 3.7, he said the only reason he would suggest moving to 2.5 would be for mid to high level boost.

Past that, you're losing some backpressure and thus low end torque.

I had a 2.5" catback and came back to my stock 2.25" overaxles . I feel increased low end torque. I do miss the deep tone the bigger pipes gave, but I unwittingly sacrificed performance.

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TRUE

Your best bet is to upgrade your mid-pipe for more power and trq. It yeilds a much better more proven increase. Headers work too LT or Shorties depends what your looking for. Also removing your cats helps TONS... It all just depends what you want and looking to accomplish. There are too many variables to go through...plus this helps too:
A beginner's guide to modifying your V6
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Old 11-12-2014, 04:26 PM   #6
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Just for reference, here is the email I got from Ken:

The guys at Borla are correct. 2.75” is probably over-kill for a naturally aspirated 3.7L. It’s probably over-kill for a forced induction 3.7 even.

*

To give you an idea of the amount of flow that size piping will support. Our Ecoboost F150 runs a single 3” exhaust split into two 2” pipes after the Magnaflow muffler and over the axle. Our truck makes 600 whp and over 600 lb/ft tq at the wheels on nitrous, and has no signs of exhaust restriction.

*

We also recently finished tuning a twin turbo*2013 GT that made nearly 1200 whp. Hos car runs dual 3” from front to back, and also has an electric cut-out on each side. At 11 psi and 900 whp, we saw no performance increase by opening the exhaust cut-outs. Only at 16 psi and 1000 whp did we see an increase in performance. Opening the cut-outs gained 186 whp.

*

So, as you can see 2.75” piping is designed to support a pretty extreme amount of power. Going too large slows exhaust flow, which reduces scavenging, reduces back-pressure, increases noise, and typically decreases power. This is also something that can’t be “tuned out”.

*

Personally I’d run 2.25” all the way back, and 2.5” if you’re thinking of forced induction in the future.

*

Ken Osborne

* Lead Calibrator




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Old 11-12-2014, 04:58 PM   #7
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So the 2.5" does give a deeper tone? Might be worth it, lol.
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Old 11-12-2014, 05:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by au01st View Post
So the 2.5" does give a deeper tone? Might be worth it, lol.
It does if you don't mind sacrificing some torque.

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Old 11-12-2014, 06:02 PM   #9
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While I'll agreeyou will lose some torque, it will be minimal. I have no numbers to back up my statement it won't be so drastic that you would even notice. When I had my Cobra I went to a 3" catback and I never even noticed a difference either way. All I know is that it sounded bada$$!!!
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socal Stangman View Post
While I'll agreeyou will lose some torque, it will be minimal. I have no numbers to back up my statement it won't be so drastic that you would even notice. When I had my Cobra I went to a 3" catback and I never even noticed a difference either way. All I know is that it sounded bada$$!!!
While it wasn't anything drastic, I definitely felt a difference coming back to 2.25. Keep in mind that Cobra is a totally different car, and a V8, so it likely could have used that 3".

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Old 11-12-2014, 08:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyM91 View Post
While it wasn't anything drastic, I definitely felt a difference coming back to 2.25. Keep in mind that Cobra is a totally different car, and a V8, so it likely could have used that 3".

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That's a good point. I can't speak for the v6. I still believe it's minimal and most wouldn't even notice, just my .02.
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Old 11-12-2014, 10:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fintile View Post
FALSE


TRUE

Your best bet is to upgrade your mid-pipe for more power and trq. It yeilds a much better more proven increase. Headers work too LT or Shorties depends what your looking for. Also removing your cats helps TONS... It all just depends what you want and looking to accomplish. There are too many variables to go through...plus this helps too:
A beginner's guide to modifying your V6
So it's smart to upgrade ur headers and mid pipe to 2.5 but leave the stock 2.25 for ur catback??😱😱

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Old 11-12-2014, 10:16 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14mustang v6 View Post
So it's smart to upgrade ur headers and mid pipe to 2.5 but leave the stock 2.25 for ur catback??😱😱

airaid cai, bbk tb, bbk shortys, Ford cut/clamp, magnaflow comp catback. bama tunes, 3.73s,
I too am not convinced, and here's why: Myths about "back-pressure"

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Old 11-12-2014, 10:27 PM   #14
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To be honest, I'd trust the word of tuners who have a lot of experience with the cars modded and stock over a forum post. This wasn't just MPT'S take either, it was Borla and Bama's. I originally dismissed Borla's claims because it sounded too much like a sales pitch. But that, combined with research I did proves them likely correct.

Here is a video of the explanation:

Performance Exhaust - More Horsepower: http://youtu.be/Ivgp1LBsGEQ

Now here is a much higher level explanation:

(It's a PDF) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...jFZaO8tVWijYQw

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Old 11-12-2014, 10:46 PM   #15
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How are u going to tell me I'm wrong when I said its best to get the tailpipe 2.5 if ur going to upgrade ur mid pipe and headers to 2.5 later down the road.. saying I'm wrong.. ur saying it's best to have ur headers and mid pipe 2.5 but leave everything else 2.25..

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Old 11-12-2014, 11:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyM91 View Post
To be honest, I'd trust the word of tuners who have a lot of experience with the cars modded and stock over a forum post. This wasn't just MPT'S take either, it was Borla and Bama's. I originally dismissed Borla's claims because it sounded too much like a sales pitch. But that, combined with research I did proves them likely correct.

Here is a video of the explanation:

Performance Exhaust - More Horsepower: http://youtu.be/Ivgp1LBsGEQ

Now here is a much higher level explanation:

(It's a PDF) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...jFZaO8tVWijYQw

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I can't view the second link on my phone right now, but the video you posted says the exact same thing as what I linked to. Back pressure is bad for exhaust flow. Period. But smaller diameters can help to increase velocity, if tuned to the pressure waves coming from the cylinders. The engineer needs to optimize both. I guess my issue with what you originally wrote is that "you lose some back pressure and thus low end torque." So maybe your conclusion is correct but not your reasoning.

I welcome a counterpoint if you have one. Just trying to learn by thinking this through and talking it out, I'm not arguing with you.

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Old 11-13-2014, 08:44 AM   #17
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Maybe backpressure isn't the right word to use anymore, but there is a negative pressure wave that increases the velocity of the exhaust gases.

That 2nd link is a pdf, if you have an android phone it should automatically download and give you a notification. It opens in Polaris Office by default. As for iOS, I'm not quite sure. I'm sure they have some sort of equivalent. It's a detailed paper on exhaust gases and scavenging in particular.

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Old 11-13-2014, 09:23 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyM91 View Post
Maybe backpressure isn't the right word to use anymore, but there is a negative pressure wave that increases the velocity of the exhaust gases.

That 2nd link is a pdf, if you have an android phone it should automatically download and give you a notification. It opens in Polaris Office by default. As for iOS, I'm not quite sure. I'm sure they have some sort of equivalent. It's a detailed paper on exhaust gases and scavenging in particular.

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Looking forward to reading the paper. I'm at work but I'll read it at lunch. I have an Android phone but I think yesterday I was just having Wi-Fi issues or something.

I think we're on the same page regarding this debate. It was just a lingo issue.
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Old 11-13-2014, 01:14 PM   #19
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I read the longer paper. It's good and I suggest the OP to read it if he hasn't already. But I'm wondering why you posted it in support of "back pressure increases low end torque." It very clearly says that it does not. Just the one quote that they put at the bottom said it does (at the expense of high end horsepower) but the other 5 pages said that back pressure is evil. So both things you posted were in support of what I was saying. Little confused now what your stance really is.

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Old 11-13-2014, 02:45 PM   #20
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I was presenting both sides of the argument in a sense. In theory, it's best to have all one diameter pipe for velocity ' s sake, but in practicality the information I got from tuners and the exhaust companies confirm that leaving the overaxles is the way to go.

Sorry, the way I presented all of that was a little murky. Scatter brained the last couple days.

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Old 11-13-2014, 02:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyM91 View Post
I was presenting both sides of the argument in a sense. In theory, it's best to have all one diameter pipe for velocity ' s sake, but in practicality the information I got from tuners and the exhaust companies confirm that leaving the overaxles is the way to go.

Sorry, the way I presented all of that was a little murky. Scatter brained the last couple days.

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Fair enough. Well that gets me thinking - we're talking way down at the overaxles here... Is there really going to be much effect on scavenging from all the way over there? Seems like headers would be the only design aspect that's going to make any significant difference one way or the other.
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Old 11-13-2014, 03:00 PM   #22
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The overaxles are still a good length. So we're still talking about 1/3rd of the exhaust system. It's still producing a negative pressure wave. Initially, I thought that going from a 2.5" midpipe down to a 2.25" overaxles is creating a taper and according to that paper and the video, a bad thing. Perhaps that is creating a "good" taper? Like blowing air through a straw that's slightly bigger on one end. As I said, I only have the word of the tuners and my personal experience with going back and forth between the sizes.

With the 2.5" overaxles I felt less torque down low than I do now with the 2.25. Possibly more on the high end with the 2.5 though.

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Old 11-22-2014, 11:52 AM   #23
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So why are the borla catbacks 2.25? seems like a waste if stock is already 2.25.

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Old 11-22-2014, 12:26 PM   #24
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So why are the borla catbacks 2.25? seems like a waste if stock is already 2.25.

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Because money. Lol. Their's is stainless steel so it can look pretty.

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