High-Flow Cat Benefit? - Page 2 - Mustang Evolution

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Old 11-22-2014, 12:35 AM   #36
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Here is the real scoop.
http://kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Commo...aust_tests.pdf

I can personally verify with dyno testing of my own.

Cats vs. no cats = zero HP gains.
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Old 11-22-2014, 12:41 AM   #37
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My assumption is that its less about "more" or "less" backpressure or flow as it is the correct amount (which is for people smarter than me to figure).

So whatever that magic number of CFMs is, if a cat can accomodate it, then it would not have an impact. Likewise when one begins to fail and clog, then its a problem.

From what I've read since this thread was started it seems that engines can be tuned to produce different torque curves depending on the backpressure and I imagine that's something a tuning shop with a dyno and a ****load of experience can probably help determine.

For my purposes I think I'll go with no-stink and less work If mine sees the track its gonna be some leisurely road racing this summer.
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Old 11-22-2014, 12:50 AM   #38
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My assumption is that its less about "more" or "less" backpressure or flow as it is the correct amount (which is for people smarter than me to figure).

So whatever that magic number of CFMs is, if a cat can accomodate it, then it would not have an impact. Likewise when one begins to fail and clog, then its a problem.

From what I've read since this thread was started it seems that engines can be tuned to produce different torque curves depending on the backpressure and I imagine that's something a tuning shop with a dyno and a ****load of experience can probably help determine.

For my purposes I think I'll go with no-stink and less work If mine sees the track its gonna be some leisurely road racing this summer.
The point I am making is that a modern cat has zero back pressure to it, so no change is made when removing them beyond sound.
Ever notice that a cat is a much larger diameter than the pipe?
Here is fact of fluid dynamics.
Every time you increase the size of a column of fluid (air is considered a very thin fluid) you increase the flow by a factor of 4....FOUR!
Now look at through modern cat. It's like looking through a screen door.
Its mostly straight through with little columns for the exhaust to go through.
Now do the math....how much area is taken up by those little thin walls in there.
20% maybe?
How much capacity is increased by enlarging that area?
If it's a factor of 2 you increase flow by 400%.
Think those little walls make a difference if you double the size of the can?

Short answer, no.
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Old 11-22-2014, 11:05 AM   #39
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KB link was a good read, thanks for sharing. So if you don't get any additional power, you shouldn't expect any mpg increases/decreases as well? One of the first things I thought I noticed was 2 mpg increase after removing the cats, but haven't done hard testing.
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Old 11-22-2014, 03:36 PM   #40
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I hear and see what your saying Fabman but the better you get air in and out the more power (hp/tq) you will have. It's hard for me to believe that removing the stocks cats have no effect on flow. Each motor is different though. Fabman you said you didn't gain anything going cat less. What motor and mods do you have? Not saying I don't believe you as I haven't tested on my stang but I will soon.
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Old 11-22-2014, 08:50 PM   #41
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I hear and see what your saying Fabman but the better you get air in and out the more power (hp/tq) you will have. It's hard for me to believe that removing the stocks cats have no effect on flow. Each motor is different though. Fabman you said you didn't gain anything going cat less. What motor and mods do you have? Not saying I don't believe you as I haven't tested on my stang but I will soon.
I have nothing to gain by being dishonest...I'm not selling anything.

Motor is a fully built 3 valve on e85, stroked to a 302 (not a 298), stage 3 CNC heads and cams-locked and degreed in (Big ports/Big lift cams)
2.6L KB S/C @20.5 psi, 1 3/4" ARH long tubes, 3" X and full 3" exhaust right out to 3" straight through Magnaflows.
I shift it at 7000 rpm. Believe me when I tell you it moves some air.
My buddy has a 775 RWHP GT 500 with a 3" catted X and he's not hurting for power either.
I seriously doubt that a stock V6 or 5.0 is going to move more air than either of these cars....

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Old 11-22-2014, 09:05 PM   #42
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Aaahhh I see...nice mods! I'm sure that thing is moving out lol. I still want to see for myself tho.
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:10 PM   #43
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Aaahhh I see...nice mods! I'm sure that thing is moving out lol.
I still want to see for myself tho.
Here you go.....
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:50 PM   #44
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Don't know why the second video isn't showing on my iphone but it is on my desktop.
Here are the links to both vids:
Cats:
Sal Molinare and Borelli Motor Sports "302BLWN" 2006 Mustang GT @ Sacramento Raceway - YouTube

No Cats:
Specfab Racing....! - YouTube
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:51 PM   #45
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Oh no I sorry you misunderstood what I was saying. I believe you but I was saying I want to try an o/r mid pipe for myself. Just to see what it's like. I've run out of mods to do without going FI.
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:54 PM   #46
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Oh no I sorry you misunderstood what I was saying. I believe you but I was saying I want to try an o/r mid pipe for myself. Just to see what it's like. I've run out of mods to do without going FI.
Well, there you have it then. Enjoy.
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:56 PM   #47
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Oh no I sorry you misunderstood what I was saying. I believe you but I was saying I want to try an o/r mid pipe for myself. Just to see what it's like. I've run out of mods to do without going FI. Nice runs. As I was saying that bad boy is moving out.
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:58 PM   #48
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It does alright for a 4000 pound daily driver...
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Old 12-03-2014, 10:26 AM   #49
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Fabman I've got a question for you I thought of the other day. When you purchase a cat-less midpipe, why do certain retailers suggest a custom tune to "make the best of it" if it doesn't provide any additional power gains? (excluding CEL disabling)
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Old 12-03-2014, 10:45 AM   #50
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Fabman I've got a question for you I thought of the other day. When you purchase a cat-less midpipe, why do certain retailers suggest a custom tune to "make the best of it" if it doesn't provide any additional power gains? (excluding CEL disabling)
Afew reasons;
1) since there is no catalytic conversion in the exhaust gasses, the oxy sensors are seeing a much richer condition.
2) Off road pipes usually cause dash lights to come on for this reason.
3) When you get a re tune, usually you will go from a regular gas tune to a 92 or 93 octane tune. The extra octane allows the tuner to add global spark and more finely adjust fuel trims and other tables within the tune. This is where the power comes from. If you notice, most aftermarket performance parts suggest or come with a "Tune".

Let me ask you this:
If you bought a Hello Kitty steering wheel cover, and it came with a "tune" and you made 12 more HP....was it the steering wheel cover or the tune that did it?
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:05 AM   #51
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Afew reasons;

1) since there is no catalytic conversion in the exhaust gasses, the oxy sensors are seeing a much richer condition.

2) Off road pipes usually cause dash lights to come on for this reason.

3) When you get a re tune, usually you will go from a regular gas tune to a 92 or 93 octane tune. The extra octane allows the tuner to add global spark and more finely adjust fuel trims and other tables within the tune. This is where the power comes from. If you notice, most aftermarket performance parts suggest or come with a "Tune".



Let me ask you this:

If you bought a Hello Kitty steering wheel cover, and it came with a "tune" and you made 12 more HP....was it the steering wheel cover or the tune that did it?

Obviously the Hello Kitty Steering Wheel Cover, no one is that dumb!


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Old 12-03-2014, 11:29 AM   #52
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Obviously the Hello Kitty Steering Wheel Cover, no one is that dumb!


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You may be surprised....
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:35 AM   #53
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Afew reasons;
1) since there is no catalytic conversion in the exhaust gasses, the oxy sensors are seeing a much richer condition.
2) Off road pipes usually cause dash lights to come on for this reason.
3) When you get a re tune, usually you will go from a regular gas tune to a 92 or 93 octane tune. The extra octane allows the tuner to add global spark and more finely adjust fuel trims and other tables within the tune. This is where the power comes from. If you notice, most aftermarket performance parts suggest or come with a "Tune".

Let me ask you this:
If you bought a Hello Kitty steering wheel cover, and it came with a "tune" and you made 12 more HP....was it the steering wheel cover or the tune that did it?
ok wait a minute. True what your saying but without the mid pipe tbe tuner wouldn't be able to make it so your producing more power so actually the o/r midpipe is doing something. No?
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:38 AM   #54
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Afew reasons;
1) since there is no catalytic conversion in the exhaust gasses, the oxy sensors are seeing a much richer condition.
2) Off road pipes usually cause dash lights to come on for this reason.
3) When you get a re tune, usually you will go from a regular gas tune to a 92 or 93 octane tune. The extra octane allows the tuner to add global spark and more finely adjust fuel trims and other tables within the tune. This is where the power comes from. If you notice, most aftermarket performance parts suggest or come with a "Tune".

Let me ask you this:
If you bought a Hello Kitty steering wheel cover, and it came with a "tune" and you made 12 more HP....was it the steering wheel cover or the tune that did it?
I'm already familiar with your first and second points, custom tuning, and aftermarket modifications that may be more effective under proper calibration.

My question was more directed towards someone who has a custom tune (i.e. 93 octane race tune), goes to an O/R mid-pipe, then is suggested to get a re-tune to benefit from the "new free flowing" mid-pipe (as in power gains), with CEL's completely disregarded.
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:01 PM   #55
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Yes, even if you already have a tune, it is best to have the tune adjusted when deleting the cats for more than just the CEL.
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:09 PM   #56
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ok wait a minute. True what your saying but without the mid pipe tbe tuner wouldn't be able to make it so your producing more power so actually the o/r midpipe is doing something. No?
In most cases, no. The part is the reason for the tune.
The performance is from the tune unless the tune is spot on perfect....then no gain will be realized.
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:11 PM   #57
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I have nothing to gain by being dishonest...I'm not selling anything.

Motor is a fully built 3 valve on e85, stroked to a 302 (not a 298), stage 3 CNC heads and cams-locked and degreed in (Big ports/Big lift cams)
2.6L KB S/C @20.5 psi, 1 3/4" ARH long tubes, 3" X and full 3" exhaust right out to 3" straight through Magnaflows.
I shift it at 7000 rpm. Believe me when I tell you it moves some air.
My buddy has a 775 RWHP GT 500 with a 3" catted X and he's not hurting for power either.
I seriously doubt that a stock V6 or 5.0 is going to move more air than either of these cars....


i seem to have missed this, and dont exactly see what it is in response to, but i would like to comment on this.

Both you and the GT500 you mentioned are Boosted, so saying an Na 5.0 or 3.7 wont move the same amount of air is true. However, since the 5.0 and 3.7 are NOT boosted, the effects of scavenging are much more important since there is not positive pressure in the intake tract to force the exhaust out. You can see then its really an Apples to Oranges comparison due to the drastically different principles at play here, and thus, really isnt a valid point.
I understand speaking from experience, i dont mean to discredit that, just saying that i dont necessarily agree with the logic there.
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:22 PM   #58
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i seem to have missed this, and dont exactly see what it is in response to, but i would like to comment on this.

Both you and the GT500 you mentioned are Boosted, so saying an Na 5.0 or 3.7 wont move the same amount of air is true. However, since the 5.0 and 3.7 are NOT boosted, the effects of scavenging are much more important since there is not positive pressure in the intake tract to force the exhaust out. You can see then its really an Apples to Oranges comparison due to the drastically different principles at play here, and thus, really isnt a valid point.
I understand speaking from experience, i dont mean to discredit that, just saying that i dont necessarily agree with the logic there.
That's the wonderful thing about America....you can think anything you want.

Bottom line....boosted or non boosted. N/A V6 or 5.0.
There is nothing gained from removing an otherwise correctly functioning Cat.
The smaller the motor, the less it matters. It's not like you have these perfectly tuned equal length headers where somebody actually did the math to get the real true primary length, OD and collector sizes for a specific combination at a specific RPM. 90% of headers out there are just low restriction manifolds.....not true headers. Look at the pictures. How come one tube is several inches (or feet) shorter than another one? For a true "Header" to work like it's supposed to, all the tubes must be within 1/4" in length and the have same volume. Just like ported heads.
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:34 PM   #59
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That's the wonderful thing about America....you can think anything you want.

Bottom line....boosted or non boosted. N/A V6 or 5.0.
There is nothing gained from removing an otherwise correctly functioning Cat.
The smaller the motor, the less it matters. It's not like you have these perfectly tuned equal length headers where somebody actually did the math to get the real true primary length, OD and collector sizes for a specific combination at a specific RPM. 90% of headers out there are just low restriction manifolds.....not true headers. Look at the pictures. How come one tube is several inches (or feet) shorter than another one? For a true "Header" to work like it's supposed to, all the tubes must be within 1/4" in length and the have same volume. Just like ported heads.

Indeed. I suppose you and i will have to agree to disagree.
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:47 PM   #60
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I didnt even think about the fact that Fabman's car and the GT500 are boosted. The 5.0s I was referring to in my earlier post as having gains are all NA. You can even search the forum and find guys that have picked up some ponies from switching to an o/r mid-pipe. So you may not have picked up anything with your setup but that's not to say NA setups won't. I'll see if any of my workmates have dyno I can post up of the gains before and after.
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:05 PM   #61
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I didnt even think about the fact that Fabman's car and the GT500 are boosted. The 5.0s I was referring to in my earlier post as having gains are all NA. You can even search the forum and find guys that have picked up some ponies from switching to an o/r mid-pipe. So you may not have picked up anything with your setup but that's not to say NA setups won't. I'll see if any of my workmates have dyno I can post up of the gains before and after.
Doesn't matter.....N/A or Boosted. It just matters even less N/A and small cuin.
Again, it's not like your getting any meaningful "Scavenging" without a real tuned exhaust....especially if you are running stock manifolds.

It's what my engineering instructor used to call "Mechanical Masturbation".
Yeah, sure it feels good, but somehow it's just not quite the real thing.

And with that, I think all points have been made, take it for what it's worth....believe what you want and everybody have a great day.

We've officially beat this horse to death.
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:14 PM   #62
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I think it was a worthwhile beating. I, for one, am not saying anyone is right or wrong. Some good points were brought up in this thread which I'll keep in mind/are good to know.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:54 PM   #63
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High-Flow Cat Benefit?

Yeah it has been beat to death but I wouldn't call it a way of thinking more so facts.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...mp-X-Pipe-Test
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:23 PM   #64
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Yeah it has been beat to death but I wouldn't call it a way of thinking more so facts.

SVTPerformance Plumbing 101 : Lethal Performance Offroad H & X-Pipe Test
I guess that depends on who you get your facts from.

Manufacturers=selling off road pipes/motivation to make certain claims.

Kenne Bell=NOT selling off road pipes/no motivation to make any claims at all.

Myself=not selling anything/real time back to back dyno pulls and back to back 1/4 mile runs captured on video/No reason to give a rip what anybody thinks.
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:02 PM   #65
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So do other people. So what you have good sir, is circumstantial evidence, not "Facts," Per se'
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:18 PM   #66
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Fair enough
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:22 PM   #67
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So do other people. So what you have good sir, is circumstantial evidence, not "Facts," Per se'
Kenne bell dyno tests don't count as facts?
Did you read the information they provided?

I just offered some real world input on a topic where a question was asked and I happen to have a level of expertise.
My professional time is very expensive and I obviously wasted a bunch of it here.

Like I said, I am not selling anything and have no reason to support any particular perspective so, when in doubt, follow the money.

Have a great day.
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:43 PM   #68
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Your professional time is quite useless as well
.
1. You keep bringing up comparisons of Boosted applications vs Na. The logic is different, the principles are different, the outcomes will. be. different. This again, is apples to oranges.

2. You enjoy using blanket statements and offer no real description. Small cube motors dont benefit from exhaust mods the same as big cube motors? The difference in power gained from a 7.0 and a 2.0 might be quite different, but the Delta is the arguable point here, and therefore makes your statement arguable and/or erroneous. Obviously on an otherwise optimal set up a 7.0 will gain more power, but the percentage change in horsepower should be the means of comparison. Otherwise thats just a dumb thing to say.

3. You are not the only one with a level of expertise here. I have tried to be cordial, but you keep trying to walk off with your last words being that "what i've said is fact, and thats all there is to it."

4. You're selling your perspective, this is a discussion turned argument because you cannot acknowledge another point of view that differs from what you again keep referring to as "fact." Yes, in that case, on that car, at that time those were the results. That is not to say it is undeniably concluded for every car ever ... Again, this is circumstantial evidence, not straight "Facts."

6. your one valid point was something along the lines of "A cat functioning properly in a system will not hurt performance," or something of that nature. This is true, but that again would be circumstantial on a per-car basis, and is a different argument entirely as to what a "properly functioning cat" is.

5. But i digress. We can just continue to "agree to disagree."
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Old 12-03-2014, 05:00 PM   #69
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Well my car has no cats. And guarantee you it would not have made 700+ with them on there.
Same with our 1,400hp fox guarantee you it won't push that through a cat either.

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Old 12-03-2014, 05:06 PM   #70
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Your professional time is quite useless as well
.
1. You keep bringing up comparisons of Boosted applications vs Na. The logic is different, the principles are different, the outcomes will. be. different. This again, is apples to oranges.

2. You enjoy using blanket statements and offer no real description. Small cube motors dont benefit from exhaust mods the same as big cube motors? The difference in power gained from a 7.0 and a 2.0 might be quite different, but the Delta is the arguable point here, and therefore makes your statement arguable and/or erroneous. Obviously on an otherwise optimal set up a 7.0 will gain more power, but the percentage change in horsepower should be the means of comparison. Otherwise thats just a dumb thing to say.

3. You are not the only one with a level of expertise here. I have tried to be cordial, but you keep trying to walk off with your last words being that "what i've said is fact, and thats all there is to it."

4. You're selling your perspective, this is a discussion turned argument because you cannot acknowledge another point of view that differs from what you again keep referring to as "fact." Yes, in that case, on that car, at that time those were the results. That is not to say it is undeniably concluded for every car ever ... Again, this is circumstantial evidence, not straight "Facts."

6. your one valid point was something along the lines of "A cat functioning properly in a system will not hurt performance," or something of that nature. This is true, but that again would be circumstantial on a per-car basis, and is a different argument entirely as to what a "properly functioning cat" is.

5. But i digress. We can just continue to "agree to disagree."
A pissing match? Awsesome.....let me end it this way:
You're right.
You're right about everything and I'm a total no nothing fvck.
Feel better?

Good.
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