High-Flow Cat Benefit? - Mustang Evolution

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Old 11-17-2014, 12:19 PM   #1
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High-Flow Cat Benefit?

Hey guys,

Anyone have any DATA on gains from going with a high-flow cat? Is it even worth it?

Piecing together a CAI, BBK shorties and Borla Tourings and trying to figure out if there's any real-world benefit in the high flow cat.

On a more subjective note does anyone have an opinion on what it does to the tone and note of the exhaust?

Thanks!
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Old 11-17-2014, 01:23 PM   #2
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I had HFC's on my 350z. I paid around 400.00 for them and I didnt really notice much difference. Im sure they do help but for the cost I think its minimal. Never tried them on a Mustang though...
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Old 11-17-2014, 05:20 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by WordySanchez View Post
Hey guys,

Anyone have any DATA on gains from going with a high-flow cat? Is it even worth it?

Piecing together a CAI, BBK shorties and Borla Tourings and trying to figure out if there's any real-world benefit in the high flow cat.

On a more subjective note does anyone have an opinion on what it does to the tone and note of the exhaust?

Thanks!
Save yourself the trouble and get rid of your cats (if legal in your area). Buy off road prochamber midpipe, they will be a perfect compliment to your shorties. Use a pair of dynomax bullets before this mid pipe, and you're golden. They will keep the rasp out, while still maintaining the level of volume. And since you've Borla tourings, your overall exhaust note wouldn't be obnoxious.

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Old 11-17-2014, 06:09 PM   #4
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Save yourself the trouble and get rid of your cats (if legal in your area). Buy off road prochamber midpipe, they will be a perfect compliment to your shorties. Use a pair of dynomax bullets before this mid pipe, and you're golden. They will keep the rasp out, while still maintaining the level of volume. And since you've Borla tourings, your overall exhaust note wouldn't be obnoxious.

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If you live in the USA, it's always illegal to run with no cats.

I ran a BBK high flow catted x pipe for a long time before my new catless setup. Since I changed headers and the mid pipe at once I can't speak for that over stock, but going from high flow to catless I felt a noticeable improvement.

Nothing crazy, but there's more power.

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Old 11-17-2014, 08:27 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by JoeyM91 View Post
If you live in the USA, it's always illegal to run with no cats.

I ran a BBK high flow catted x pipe for a long time before my new catless setup. Since I changed headers and the mid pipe at once I can't speak for that over stock, but going from high flow to catless I felt a noticeable improvement.

Nothing crazy, but there's more power.

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I guess I should have said if OP didn't need to get emissions testing done, then he can get an off road pipe. Driving without cats is pretty much illegal everywhere I guess.

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Old 11-17-2014, 09:55 PM   #6
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Hm, that's all really good info. Modern cars only get ODBII plug in during the inspections here, they never visually inspect, so I think I"d be fine as long as there was not obnoxious fumes or noise.


Either way I think I'll worry about that mid-pipe section as a "phase 2" and do the shorties and Borlas to start.


Thanks everyone for sharing your experience.
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Old 11-17-2014, 10:52 PM   #7
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You're welcome man. Did you buy your borlas yet? Have you looked into the s types? They, together with a pair of shorty headers make a killer combination on our stangs. Just my 0.2 though

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Old 11-17-2014, 11:35 PM   #8
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Haven't pulled the trigger yet. I'm on the fence (leaning towards Tourings) just because 1) I don't know what kind of volume mucking with the cats/midpipe is gonna add and 2) Coming from the rotary world I'm looking forward to driving something deeper/mellow that doesn't smell like burning cat hair.






That said I'm hoping to hear the Stingers in person. With my ears apparently, hearing them on computer speakers only does so much for me. Hoping to hit some car shows, as no one in the awesome local Mustang club I found has Stingers.
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Old 11-18-2014, 12:05 AM   #9
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You're welcome man. Did you buy your borlas yet? Have you looked into the s types? They, together with a pair of shorty headers make a killer combination on our stangs. Just my 0.2 though

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I have a pair of s types, I like the sound but a deeper rumble/louder are shorties enough? Does adding the high flow cats help with sound?
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Old 11-18-2014, 12:14 AM   #10
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Hm, that's all really good info. Modern cars only get ODBII plug in during the inspections, they never visually inspect, so I think I"d be fine as long as there was not obnoxious fumes or noise.


Either way I think I'll worry about that mid-pipe section as a "phase 2" and do the shorties and Borlas to start.


Thanks everyone for sharing your experience.

That's not correct. In NC and most states there is the obd 2 plug in test to check for codes and a visual safety/ emissions checks that looks at tires, lights, and make sure all OEM emissions equipment is still on the car. Are some inspectors less through when they do the check? Sure but there is always the chance. I actually had a car fail because the previous owner pulled the air pump and egr off the car. No codes but it failed the visual.

As far as if there will be any gains on a stock car removing the cats will yield little to no gain as with stock power levels the exhaust flows sufficiently. Now if you add forced induction or large shot of N2O then yeah they will become a restitution and you will see bigger gains.


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Old 11-18-2014, 12:40 AM   #11
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Apologies, I was speaking for the inspectin process in my state.
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:34 AM   #12
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If you live in the USA, it's always illegal to run with no cats.

I ran a BBK high flow catted x pipe for a long time before my new catless setup. Since I changed headers and the mid pipe at once I can't speak for that over stock, but going from high flow to catless I felt a noticeable improvement.

Nothing crazy, but there's more power.

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Actually replacing a Catalytic converter with anything other than OEM in the OEM location is illegal. My friends truck passed Emissions testing twice in NC and he was written for other than OEM Cats by a NC State Trooper. He paid a $1500 fine after putting it back to stock.
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:09 PM   #13
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Actually replacing a Catalytic converter with anything other than OEM in the OEM location is illegal. My friends truck passed Emissions testing twice in NC and he was written for other than OEM Cats by a NC State Trooper. He paid a $1500 fine after putting it back to stock.
Of course. I was still illegal, but if a cop just visually checked I doubt he'd compare part numbers or knew exactly what the oem cat looked like, he'd just see a cat.

I'm not in a smog/inspection state.

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Old 11-19-2014, 05:05 PM   #14
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Yep, its federal law to have cats. Only a certified mechanic can replace it (and has to document it) with OEM/CARB-legal cat if previous cat was failing or your car is past it's power train warranty (usually 100K miles).

Tbh high-flows don't seem worth it. Unless your area is REALLY strict, cannot stand the fumes what-so-ever, looking for medium volume increase, and little power increase. Then you're still illegal.

The typical O/R midpipe + mid-mounted bullet/race muffler (often called resonators) + axle-back/muffler delete is great for almost any stang
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:30 PM   #15
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Coolio, so you think the resonators in place of the cats is enough to not ruin the sweet sweet music of the Tourings, BBKs and CAI?


Also what is the exaust smell like without the cats? I'm fairly certain I had a girlfriend leave me because of "RotorStink".
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:36 PM   #16
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Catless, you can smell the gas for sure, it's a richer smell but nowhere near as bad as a rotary.

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Old 11-20-2014, 12:37 AM   #17
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Don't think that it'll kill the mellow deep benefit of the BBK/Touring combo?


Also... wtf is up with the cat backs being 400+ more than the axlebacks? I find it hard to believe that I can't get decent pipe made to connect these to the midpipe for well under 400. Am I just naïve?
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Old 11-20-2014, 01:48 AM   #18
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Don't think that it'll kill the mellow deep benefit of the BBK/Touring combo?


Also... wtf is up with the cat backs being 400+ more than the axlebacks? I find it hard to believe that I can't get decent pipe made to connect these to the midpipe for well under 400. Am I just naïve?
Going catless will definitely make things louder and raspier as fawwk. Best bet would be add resonators/race bullets (where cats were originally located or as close to it as possible) as other have suggested.

Also, most exhaust shops are gonna rip you off with cat back to axle back pipes. I believe dynomax make em for $100 a pair, but I'm not too sure of their size.

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Old 11-20-2014, 01:53 AM   #19
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Thanks Bazinga, if the Dyno maxes work, then that basically makes the 500 axlebacks work the same as the cat backs for 300 less. Seems hard for me to believe that this is the case... why wouldn't everyone just do that instead? I'm gonna look into that. Not sure if I really need the benefit of 2.5 over 2.25 though to be honest. I'm not really forcing a tonne more air through the engine.


Do the race bullets really do a good job of killing the rasp?
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:38 AM   #20
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Catless, you can smell the gas for sure, it's a richer smell but nowhere near as bad as a rotary.

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You can only smell it on the outside tho right?
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:06 AM   #21
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You can only smell it on the outside tho right?

No it comes through your air condition vents as well in your car.


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Old 11-20-2014, 10:55 AM   #22
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Thanks Bazinga, if the Dyno maxes work, then that basically makes the 500 axlebacks work the same as the cat backs for 300 less. Seems hard for me to believe that this is the case... why wouldn't everyone just do that instead? I'm gonna look into that. Not sure if I really need the benefit of 2.5 over 2.25 though to be honest. I'm not really forcing a tonne more air through the engine.


Do the race bullets really do a good job of killing the rasp?
Maybe the reason why not everyone with a v6 is buying dynomax catback pipes is cuz of the pipe size?

The race bullets indeed do a good job with killing rasp out. They are supposed to absorb the unwanted harsh noise from the engine, which essentially translates into rasp. Hence you need em as close to the exhaust manifolds as possible. Check svt forums, there are a couple good reads over there.

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Old 11-20-2014, 11:27 AM   #23
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You can only smell it on the outside tho right?
Personally, I only smell it on the outside or if my windows are down.

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Old 11-20-2014, 11:48 AM   #24
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I can only smell fumes when I've been at a stop for a while (in traffic or drive-thru) with my windows down or when I pull into my garage and get out of my car. With the windows up, no fumes.

As for picking a mid-mounted resonator, there are differences. I'm currently deep into research of the best resonator and axle-back combo for my 3v. I.e. Pypes M-80's have a hot rod, medium deep tone while Borla S-Types have a very deep tone.

Right now I have both but wondering if I can just ditch my mid-mounted M-80s and just cut up my Borla S-Type AB and have it mid-mounted w/o the rasp and ricer sounds come back.
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Old 11-20-2014, 12:02 PM   #25
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When you change over the exhaust, does the car's computer make automatic adjustments to the increased flow and lower back-pressure? I remember this as a problem with Harley exhaust changes.
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Old 11-20-2014, 12:19 PM   #26
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When you change over the exhaust, does the car's computer make automatic adjustments to the increased flow and lower back-pressure? I remember this as a problem with Harley exhaust changes.
From my understanding, no. You'd need to recalibrate your tune. Especially on the 2011+
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Old 11-20-2014, 02:19 PM   #27
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The only time I can justify smelling fumes with the windows up is after a Chipotle run...
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Old 11-20-2014, 02:34 PM   #28
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There is no such thing as a "High Flow Cat".
They are made just like the stockers but may be a little smaller (and illegal depending on your state).
Kenne Bell has tested them over and over and saw zero gain.
I ran 10.22 with a catted X pipe then removed the cats and went no faster.
Cats aren't the big demon a lot of folks think they are.
You will likely see no improvement going from stock to off road pipes.
@ 670 rwhp I showed zero gain doing it right. (back to back runs on a chassis dyno including tweaking the tune for the new pipes)
In the real world it ain't worth the bother unless you are making really-really big power.
Now it will certainly sound different, and if that's what you are after I say go for it, but don't expect any real power gains. It ain't gonna happen.
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:06 PM   #29
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There is no such thing as a "High Flow Cat".
They are made just like the stockers but may be a little smaller (and illegal depending on your state).
Kenne Bell has tested them over and over and saw zero gain.
I ran 10.22 with a catted X pipe then removed the cats and went no faster.
Cats aren't the big demon a lot of folks think they are.
You will likely see no improvement going from stock to off road pipes.
@ 670 rwhp I showed zero gain doing it right. (back to back runs on a chassis dyno including tweaking the tune for the new pipes)
In the real world it ain't worth the bother unless you are making really-really big power.
Now it will certainly sound different, and if that's what you are after I say go for it, but don't expect any real power gains. It ain't gonna happen.
I would disagree. For a few reasons.

1) It's just simple physics. An impeded gas flow is going to travel slower than a free-flowing one.

2) What applies to one engine doesn't necessarily translate to all. Especially when we're talking a modern 3.7 V6 vs the old 4.6 V8.

3) I came from a high flow catted mid pipe to a Catless one. I most definitely felt a difference. While I have no dyno numbers to support that, it was enough to feel.

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Old 11-20-2014, 03:14 PM   #30
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I would disagree. For a few reasons.

1) It's just simple physics. An impeded gas flow is going to travel slower than a free-flowing one.

2) What applies to one engine doesn't necessarily translate to all. Especially when we're talking a modern 3.7 V6 vs the old 4.6 V8.

3) I came from a high flow catted mid pipe to a Catless one. I most definitely felt a difference. While I have no dyno numbers to support that, it was enough to feel.

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Physics 101. There is no flow impedance in modern cats. Check it out.
No real dyno tests support it. Butt dynos don't count.
After a lifetime in racing (most of it professionally) and as an exhaust industry professional I can tell you with 100% certainty that what I say is true.

Take it for what it's worth and believe what you want.
At least somebody took the time to be honest with you.
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:22 PM   #31
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^Interesting information. My butt-dyno certainly told me otherwise, but I'll hear you out. My only goal though was sound regardless however.
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:27 PM   #32
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^Interesting information. My butt-dyno certainly told me otherwise, but I'll hear you out. My only goal though was sound regardless however.
Its all good. The sound definitely improves.
Same with shorty headers. No power gain but they along with a catted or catless X pipe sound really good without being overly loud. I ran that setup for years and Loved it.
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Old 11-20-2014, 10:33 PM   #33
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I don't need MAXIMUM power gains, and I'm not willing to go back to smelling like exhaust... rather enjoying a car that's not 20+ years old.

I'm thinking it might make the sound WORSE on a 3.7.

So I think I may stay with the stock midpipe for now, and do the CAI, shorties and tourings firstly for the beautiful music they make and then secondly for whatever power they might yield.

Loving the discussion in this thread though.
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Old 11-20-2014, 10:45 PM   #34
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I would disagree. For a few reasons.

1) It's just simple physics. An impeded gas flow is going to travel slower than a free-flowing one.

In theory that's true but that is dependent that the engine is producing enough exhaust for them to be a bottleneck. In theory everyone should gain hp from going to a 3 inch exhaust but that's not true. On stock like power levels most modern cats are not bottlenecks like they were 30-40 years ago. Sure if you have stock cats in a 1000 hp cat and you put a off road pipe you will see gains but on a stock car with 300 hp your not going to see the "maximum gains" companies advertise.


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Old 11-21-2014, 07:00 AM   #35
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I don't know how much of a performance gain o/r pipes give on the 3.7 but I've seen the gains 5.0 have with them so I do believe it's worth it I just don't want the fumes associated with it lol.
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