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Old 11-24-2014, 10:17 AM   #1
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Can our cars hit 11's n/a?

I've seen plenty of tuned n/a cars making low 12's in the 1/4 but whats keeping us from breaking into the 11's, is it the lack of aftermarket cams?


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Old 11-24-2014, 10:34 AM   #2
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Cams really don't benefit this engine as much as older engines due to the TI-VCT system.

Is it possible to hit 11.9, 11.8 NA, maybe. Ported intake manifold and some engine work might get you there. Certainly not a basic bolt on car. Not likely though.

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Old 11-24-2014, 10:38 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyM91 View Post
Cams really don't benefit this engine as much as older engines due to the TI-VCT system.

Is it possible to hit 11.9, 11.8 NA, maybe. Ported intake manifold and some engine work might get you there. Certainly not a basic bolt on car. Not likely though.

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Why do you say that?
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Old 11-24-2014, 10:45 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Why do you say that?
Just basing that one what I've seen so far. Not saying it isn't possible, but so far no one has gotten there.

Again, definitely not with basic bolt ons. Unless maybe with picture perfect conditions and a flawless tune.

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Old 11-24-2014, 10:46 AM   #5
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I meant in regards to the cams.
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Old 11-24-2014, 10:56 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
I meant in regards to the cams.
I haven't seen any gains from either the 3.7 or the 5.0, that is without deleting the VCT system with the phaser locks from the papers I've read about various builds plus the lack of aftermarket enthusiasm for them has to be for a reason.

Not to say I couldn't be wrong.

Somewhat off topic but I did find this neat little paper done about TI-VCT engines:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...o_L6eTEUVl2K8w


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Old 11-24-2014, 11:06 AM   #7
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Lol, well i hate to just jump in and seem like i'm busting your chops, but cams are quite beneficial on the 5.0 motor, especially with Ti-vct still intact. They arent really beneficial on the stock GT manifold, but that manifold isnt designed for RPMs, it really requires a boss or CJ manifold + Rpms to get gains out of the cams, but there are several 5.0s over 500 whp all motor. Even though Ti-vct can adjust the overlap and timing events, a well breathing motor will always benefit from more lift / duration. The ti-vct is what actually saves these motors, typically on a fixed cam car you have to trade low end for top end, on a Ti-vct car you get to have your cake and eat it too; no loss of low end and monster top end.

The v6 has a high rise plenum that is ... "similar" in a sense to the Boss or CJ manifolds, and you can see that in the way it builds power (dyno graphs), and the rpms its able to hold that power to. I think cams would be beneficial, and it would be possible to see 11's all motor, the problem is just cost. I was saving up, planning, and had already ordered a set of exhaust cams to do a budget build on my 5.0 shooting for about 475-480 whp all motor. Even that was still going to cost me around $3000 said and done before the retune and everything ... you can see now why people just opt for boost.

All motor serves its purpose to those that want it, but you have to really want it. Thats really why i dont believe there isnt much support for cams for the 3.7, i dont think people really appreciate the costs associated with it, and the aftermarket doesnt see a profit there.
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Old 11-24-2014, 11:12 AM   #8
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The reason you dellete the VCT is to run a big custom cam, or for the people who want a real lope from them.

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Old 11-24-2014, 11:16 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Lol, well i hate to just jump in and seem like i'm busting your chops, but cams are quite beneficial on the 5.0 motor, especially with Ti-vct still intact. They arent really beneficial on the stock GT manifold, but that manifold isnt designed for RPMs, it really requires a boss or CJ manifold + Rpms to get gains out of the cams, but there are several 5.0s over 500 whp all motor. Even though Ti-vct can adjust the overlap and timing events, a well breathing motor will always benefit from more lift / duration. The ti-vct is what actually saves these motors, typically on a fixed cam car you have to trade low end for top end, on a Ti-vct car you get to have your cake and eat it too; no loss of low end and monster top end.

The v6 has a high rise plenum that is ... "similar" in a sense to the Boss or CJ manifolds, and you can see that in the way it builds power (dyno graphs), and the rpms its able to hold that power to. I think cams would be beneficial, and it would be possible to see 11's all motor, the problem is just cost. I was saving up, planning, and had already ordered a set of exhaust cams to do a budget build on my 5.0 shooting for about 475-480 whp all motor. Even that was still going to cost me around $3000 said and done before the retune and everything ... you can see now why people just opt for boost.

All motor serves its purpose to those that want it, but you have to really want it. Thats really why i dont believe there isnt much support for cams for the 3.7, i dont think people really appreciate the costs associated with it, and the aftermarket doesnt see a profit there.
Fair enough, I can be wrong lol.

So far for the 3.7 I've only seen Super Six come out with a mild set.

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Old 11-24-2014, 11:16 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Rapinator126 View Post
The reason you dellete the VCT is to run a big custom cam, or for the people who want a real lope from them.

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Have you been following Darren's thread on SVTp? Went with custom MMR cams that deleted the Ti-vct and all that jazz and put down hp about on par with CC stage 3's, but less torque... MMR is pointing the finger at Rev auto saying they werent installed right, rev auto is saying MMR gave them a bogus cam card, but its a mess. Those cams are MASSIVE too, he sent me the profile for them somewhere. A slight threadjack, but since the information here is "cams" i feel its semi relevant.

CJ,SCJ,CAMS etc.
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Old 11-24-2014, 11:18 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Have you been following Darren's thread on SVTp? Went with custom MMR cams that deleted the Ti-vct and all that jazz and put down hp about on par with CC stage 3's, but less torque... MMR is pointing the finger at Rev auto saying they werent installed right, rev auto is saying MMR gave them a bogus cam card, but its a mess. Those cams are MASSIVE too, he sent me the profile for them somewhere. A slight threadjack, but since the information here is "cams" i feel its semi relevant.

CJ,SCJ,CAMS etc.
No. Thats why I don't like MMR. They are sneaky. L&M is the best for custom cams, he is down to earth and will sit there and talk with you, on a person to person basis vs just seeing $$

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Old 11-24-2014, 11:24 AM   #12
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I've heard both of those statements more times than i can count. Found the cam card.
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Old 11-24-2014, 11:31 AM   #13
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honestly not that big of a cam, the duration at 50° is less than the NSR stage 3's

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Old 11-24-2014, 11:38 AM   #14
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Thats what was blowing my mind ... The lift is big, but the duration is quite shallow... hell, the Ford Racing exhaust cams i had sitting in my garage were 11mm / 290* duration. I figured they just planned on making up the extra flow with lift as opposed to duration, but i havent kept up on my cam research since i gave up on my build a few months ago.
At any rate, he's out a ton of money and doesnt have much performance to show for it. The biggest gripe now is that the lobe centers are not correct at all for an N/a application and thats costing them quite a bit.


Point of all this being, someone is going to have to do this R&D for the 3.7 to have cams. The installing, the tuning, the testing ... its quite a high dollar demand.
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:03 PM   #15
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So will it cost me more to get there all motor versus boost?


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Old 11-24-2014, 01:12 PM   #16
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Well, the same or more, but with boost you obviously have the potential for much more power than all motor. It just depends on what you want.
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:14 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Well, the same or more, but with boost you obviously have the potential for much more power than all motor. It just depends on what you want.


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Old 11-24-2014, 01:14 PM   #18
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If all motor would run more reliably, I would like to stay to that route, whatever makes the most power with the smallest impact on the engine's overall life.


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Old 11-24-2014, 01:34 PM   #19
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Well, spinning to massive RPMs isnt doing the engine any favors either. There's always a trade off. I wanted all motor so i didnt have to deal with massive underhood heat, more added weight, and a more linear powerband since i enjoy road courses. In the end though i just couldnt justify the costs, and wasnt comfortable spinning a stock GT motor to 7500-8000 rpms for 30 minutes at a time, so i just stuck with bolt ons.
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Old 11-24-2014, 05:15 PM   #20
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Another question I've wondered about, has anybody tried a setup like the EB for our v6? Like whatever setup with the 3.5 EB but tuned for our engine? Am I missing something?


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Old 11-25-2014, 07:31 AM   #21
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Are you saying twin turbo?
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:24 AM   #22
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Are you saying twin turbo?

Yes


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Old 11-25-2014, 08:27 AM   #23
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I just dont think anyone has decided it's worth the effort. A procharger can make more than enough power to blow up the stock motor, and would be substantially cheaper and easier than trying to fab a twin turbo set up (for most people).
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:21 AM   #24
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I just dont think anyone has decided it's worth the effort...
...Except for this guy.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:22 AM   #25
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^ Yea and his car is not making impressive #'s what so ever.

Some cars do better with a single setup vs a twin setup anyways.

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Old 11-25-2014, 09:24 AM   #26
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...Except for this guy.
Notice the disclaimer i threw in there haha

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^ Yea and his car is not making impressive #'s what so ever.

Some cars do better with a single setup vs a twin setup anyways.

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I've always prefered the simplicity of a single, but i'll give the guy props for doing his own work despite the less than stellar numbers.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:43 AM   #27
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^ Yea and his car is not making impressive #'s what so ever.
What defines "impressive" numbers on a system that, by design, is targeting a wide power band rather than chasing peak numbers? And how do you know he's not achieving that yet? Has there been a final dyno posted that I'm not aware of, or are you basing this off his output during earlier stages of development?
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:43 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Have you been following Darren's thread on SVTp? Went with custom MMR cams that deleted the Ti-vct and all that jazz and put down hp about on par with CC stage 3's, but less torque... MMR is pointing the finger at Rev auto saying they werent installed right, rev auto is saying MMR gave them a bogus cam card, but its a mess. Those cams are MASSIVE too, he sent me the profile for them somewhere. A slight threadjack, but since the information here is "cams" i feel its semi relevant.

CJ,SCJ,CAMS etc.

They deleted the VCT? Link me to this please? Did it talk about drivability, gas milage, how it affected everything, ect? Thanks pal(:


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Old 11-25-2014, 09:44 AM   #29
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Link is definetly in the post you quoted.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:45 AM   #30
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^ the car is a all out race car, for the road course. Literally all out race car. It's not a street car

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Old 11-25-2014, 09:53 AM   #31
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Link is definetly in the post you quoted.

Lol mb


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Old 11-25-2014, 09:55 AM   #32
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^ the car is a all out race car, for the road course. Literally all out race car. It's not a street car

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Lol because race car right? Im probably just took to get some Vossens and say F the cams, nobody has done them, nobody has proof of anything deleting the vct, might as well just finish appearance, get some slicks and skinnys and call it a day. Destroys my dream but oh well.


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Old 11-25-2014, 10:05 AM   #33
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Lol because race car right? Im probably just going to get some Vossens and say F the cams, nobody has done them, nobody has proof of anything deleting the vct, might as well just finish appearance, get some slicks and skinnys and call it a day. Destroys my dream but oh well.


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Old 11-25-2014, 10:05 AM   #34
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I was going for a budget build, i had the FRPP Exhaust cams (11mm / 290*) i got for $180 shipped and was trying to piece together an intake cam set and shooting for around ~475-480 whp give or take. In the end though, with the oil pump gears, re-tune, cost of intake cams, install ( i will do a lot myself, but if something goes wrong i wanted that to be someone elses problem) i just couldnt do it and ended up selling the cams.
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Old 11-25-2014, 10:07 AM   #35
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Lol because race car right? Im probably just took to get some Vossens and say F the cams, nobody has done them, nobody has proof of anything deleting the vct, might as well just finish appearance, get some slicks and skinnys and call it a day. Destroys my dream but oh well.


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There is plenty of people who have done it, but they are race cars, not many DD street cars are going to do that. It's part of it, you want a big cam, so in trade your going to have to give up some DD characteristics.


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