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Old 04-08-2015, 08:29 AM   #36
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I've also seen some where the oil pump isnt situated properly it can cause oil to back up into the turbo and burn. This vette i raced once was doing a James bond disappearing act lol.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:37 AM   #37
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Well the shop I talked to has now deferred to mid mounts so the oil doesn't have to be pumped so far! They also usually go with bigger turbos to help compensate for some of the lag. I have a automatic and the lag can be a good thing with a automatic...not a lot lol but some.


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Old 04-08-2015, 08:42 AM   #38
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Not to sound argumentative, but having done turbos for a few years now, i literally have to disagree with everything in that post.

There are options for a few kits that keep the turbo in the engine bay, no need to re-invent the wheel here. Remote mounted turbos really are a last resort on a car with no other engine bay space.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:53 AM   #39
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Well one thing it helps address is the heat factor. Mid and rear mounted run ALOT cooler. You have the turbo I'm researching it.....so I'm not by any means a expert.....That's not really reinventing the turbo it's just running contrary to the usual mounting of them. If I understand correctly other manufactures such as Porsche have utilized rear mounting.


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Old 04-08-2015, 08:58 AM   #40
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That is because the engine in a porsche is in the rear, so that doesn't really count. Its also slightly counter intuitive, because turbos actually thrive with heat. High-enthalpy (heat energy basically) exhaust gas is what gets a turbo going. By placing the turbos further away, the exhaust has a chance to cool, and the transient response - off boost characteristics of the turbo - suffer, as well as actual spool and lag. A simple turbo blanket and wrapped or coated exhaust manifolds will both lower engine bay heat and improve turbo efficiency, this is what i meant by not having to re-invent the wheel.

Not to mention it adds a lot of complexity (and probable failure points) having to rely on an oil pump since the turbo cant gravity drain. There are other sales pitches people can try to make, but really the only reason to have remote mounted turbos is when they wont fit in the engine bay.
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:13 AM   #41
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Well I was talking to a mechanic NOT a sales person. A company that installs WHATEVER turbo you like. He personally liked the concept. The amount of heat generated by a turbo is the killer....I agree with you remote mounting is going to be more complex. Since STS is out of business they are looking for a new company. Hellion supposedly is in the process of designing one. Trying to contact ON3 performance and LPF. I bought my car 15,000.00! Even with a SC or turbo I'll be under the price of a GT convertible premium. My goal is not to blow a GT away...lol. Just to build a fun sleeper. No scoops ...no tail fins or stripes...it's just a v6 ??? You gotta spot me a few cars....right???


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Old 04-08-2015, 09:17 AM   #42
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Well any mechanica that says they will use a larger turbo to compensate for the lag is obviously not verry Sharp.

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Old 04-08-2015, 09:24 AM   #43
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Sts used a larger turbo to compensate for the design of rear mounting( from what I understand) They acknowledged lag from remote mounting and this was part of the way they compensated. But ultimately I heard they had refined the design a lot before there departure from the turbo scene.


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Old 04-08-2015, 09:28 AM   #44
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1. Well I was talking to a mechanic NOT a sales person. 2. A company that installs WHATEVER turbo you like. 3. He personally liked the concept. 4. The amount of heat generated by a turbo is the killer....I agree with you remote mounting is going to be more complex. Since STS is out of business they are looking for a new company. Hellion supposedly is in the process of designing one. Trying to contact ON3 performance and LPF. I bought my car 15,000.00! Even with a SC or turbo I'll be under the price of a GT convertible premium. My goal is not to blow a GT away...lol. Just to build a fun sleeper. No scoops ...no tail fins or stripes...it's just a v6 ??? You gotta spot me a few cars....right???


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1. If he works at a shop and you're talking about doing work there, he is a salesperson. My initial remark was that people were more trying to justify rear mounted turbos on "selling points" like lower heat and blah blah blah, instead of the fact that they're used simply when theres nowhere else to put them.

2. of course they will, you're paying them.

3. It is a neat concept, and again, he doesnt really have much stock in it if it doesnt perform, you asked him to put the turbo there, so he did.

4. Again, not really. A proper intercooler, and even just some basic, basic heat maintenance will keep everything fine. Your turbo gets hot, but unless you're road racing or doing some SERIOUS driving, it will never get hot enough to matter.


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Well any mechanica that says they will use a larger turbo to compensate for the lag is obviously not verry Sharp.

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+1

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Sts used a larger turbo to compensate for the design of rear mounting( from what I understand) They acknowledged lag from remote mounting and this was part of the way they compensated. But ultimately I heard they had refined the design a lot before there departure from the turbo scene.


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All else equal, the larger the turbo, the greater the lag. Sure, you could throw a tiny AR on a large compressor, but at that point it defeats the purpose since that frankenturbo wont really have a decent powerband. I'm not just sitting here trying to shoot down your ideas for the hell of it, i'm just trying to keep you from wasting your money on something that will be expensive and under perform. Its as trivial as someone who is a hardcore drag racer in the market for some 22" rims.
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:38 AM   #45
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No I appreciate your feedback....I'm going to move slowly and take in all the feedback I can. I will weigh carefully all the info....to make a decision. Hasans experience of blowing up his motor is a little unnerving...now I heard turbo is better for higher RPMS then SC....SC is better for low and mid range??? As long as your willing to comment..thanks


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Old 04-08-2015, 09:53 AM   #46
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well, thats where it really starts getting tricky. Depending on what size turbine housing (exhaust side of the turbo) you choose will determine how well is spools vs how much top end it has. A small housing will spool very fast, and have excellent transient response - which is how the car behaves driving around town. The downside is its very possible it will become a restriction in the upper rpms and the powerband will fall. Look up and stock turbo dyno, mazdaspeed3, focus ST, cobalt SS ... all stock turbo cars suffer from turbine sides that are too small, but they do this for the sake of response.

The trade off however as you move to a larger housing that will breathe better at higher rpms is you give up some spool. These motors can spool some decent sized turbos, you'd be amazed the difference a little VVT tweaking will make in spool. So in a nutshell, yes, in an ideal world, turbos favor all the RPMs you can give them, assuming they can breathe.

Now your description of superchargers is more related to positive displacement blowers like the GT500, in the case of the 3.7 your only option is a centrifugal blower, which for all intents and purposes just acts like a very large turbo - power with RPM. For strictly the case of the 3.7, the turbo is the clear cut winner. The Procharger offers simplicity and safety, in that its virtually impossible to overboost on a supercharger, but the turbo is almost guarenteed to have a better powerband if ALL the supporting pieces are in place - thats the other thing, the procharger almost literally is a bolt on affair, the turbo needs a little more love.
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:08 PM   #47
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Oh and please don't cheap on a dyno tune - make sure your tuner has experience tuning 2011+ mustangs, aka VVT. Which clearly wasn't the case with Hassan, rest is history. You can have a bulletproof motor, $10k worth of supporting mods but they're no good if your tune isn't on spot.
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:26 PM   #48
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Well my early gut feeling with 5000.00 of my money is SC....safe and reliable 410hp-430hp is PLENTY! But I'm still listening....


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Old 04-08-2015, 12:32 PM   #49
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Well my early gut feeling with 5000.00 of my money is SC....safe and reliable 410hp-430hp is PLENTY! But I'm still listening....


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It's not going to be what you think. Your 410hp will be nothing like a 5.0 with 410. Go turbo

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Old 04-08-2015, 12:43 PM   #50
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Oh and please don't cheap on a dyno tune - make sure your tuner has experience tuning 2011+ mustangs, aka VVT. Which clearly wasn't the case with Hassan, rest is history. You can have a bulletproof motor, $10k worth of supporting mods but they're no good if your tune isn't on spot.
You nailed it!
Now in selling this kit, going to finish building the motor, and I'm going to get another car ;p

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Old 04-08-2015, 12:50 PM   #51
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So airfire....your saying a bad tune caused the issue???


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Old 04-08-2015, 12:55 PM   #52
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Yeah, we broke down the datalogs in ... some thread, it may very well be his build thread, but i dont feel like digging through there to find it lol. If i remember correctly, it looks like one bank leaned out for whatever reason.
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:02 PM   #53
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So you have to have a shop tune the car? Renders my SCT 4 useless?


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Old 04-08-2015, 01:06 PM   #54
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So you have to have a shop tune the car? Renders my SCT 4 useless?


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For a turbo I'd say yes.

The SCT is perfect for data logging, still can flash tunes, but tuning the car in shop to perform well with the turbo + all the other mods, is not the same as telling BAMA you got a CAI and want to remove the limiter.


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Old 04-08-2015, 01:12 PM   #55
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Just talked to ON3 Performance...said they scrapped there 3.7 turbo production! NO DEMAND!! Said everybody SAID they wanted one, but, they weren't selling.


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Old 04-08-2015, 01:13 PM   #56
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So you have to have a shop tune the car? Renders my SCT 4 useless?


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Yes, bad tune caused failure.
And a shop will use your sct x4 to store the different tunes for the turbo (for different boost settings)
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:15 PM   #57
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What did the shop say??? That tuned it???


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Old 04-08-2015, 01:32 PM   #58
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What did the shop say??? That tuned it???


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I got into a huge fight with him.
In the end, he refunded me 300

That barely scratched the surface of the cost of a new motor.

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Old 04-08-2015, 01:34 PM   #59
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300?????? For a lost motor??? I would have taken him to court!!


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Old 04-08-2015, 01:35 PM   #60
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300?????? For a lost motor??? I would have taken him to court!!


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Can't.
I signed a waiver.

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Old 04-08-2015, 01:37 PM   #61
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Signed a waiver?? Why would you sign a waiver....he SHOULD be liable if he screwed up your tune and lost the motor.


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Old 04-08-2015, 01:50 PM   #62
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Signed a waiver?? Why would you sign a waiver....he SHOULD be liable if he screwed up your tune and lost the motor.


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Anytime you get a custom dyno tune you sign one. Every shop

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Old 04-08-2015, 01:51 PM   #63
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Signed a waiver?? Why would you sign a waiver....he SHOULD be liable if he screwed up your tune and lost the motor.


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Part of the game, man.
That's why I recommended having lpf tune (if you buy my kit) If at all possible

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Old 04-08-2015, 02:03 PM   #64
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If they dyno it and the tune is good...I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer ....but how does it change?


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Old 04-08-2015, 02:12 PM   #65
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Typically any competent tuner will be able to handle it. Assuming you're using fixed boost by just running wastegate spring pressure, really the only issues come from AFR and spark.

What separates a good tune from an OK tune is how well the tuner changes the rest of the computer to compensate for the turbo, as there are multiple load, heat, and other "safety" tables built into a tune. Basically, if your fuel is covered, you're not running excessive power, and the tune is capable of responding to the conditions a turbo creates, you're fine.


There is something to knowing the platform though. I had a guy come to me once who was saying his tuner had every single boost table maxed out but the car was only making 27 psi on a turbo that should easily be 40+ when maxed. I looked at the tune and sure enough, the turbo was running wide open ... but the tuner didnt adjust the throttle close safety feature, which was still set to 24 psi ... this guy was running a massive turbo wide open against a closed throttle. Took 15 minutes to fix and the car ran great. So while that tuner may very well have known some ins and outs of tuning, he lacked certain platform specific knowledge that kept that tune from being any good.
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Old 04-08-2015, 02:17 PM   #66
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So your saying airfire is the exception rather then the rule...


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Old 04-08-2015, 02:26 PM   #67
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I suppose you could say that.

He went to a shop that had given him reason to believe this could be done, and sadly it ended up being not so. So, while that tuner may in fact know tuning, there were likely some 3.7 specific issues that prevented it from being a good tune by them.
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Old 04-09-2015, 09:02 PM   #68
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If you want to turbo, here's your chance

Lpf turbo kit up for auction on ebay for the 3.7
More details there

http://m.ebay.com/itm/251912968895?_mwBanner=1

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Old 04-09-2015, 09:53 PM   #69
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I just bid 3100.00 if you want to end it now!


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Old 04-09-2015, 10:13 PM   #70
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I just bid 3100.00 if you want to end it now!


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You're gonna have to do better than that

But at least it's a start :p

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