Strut tower brace 2 point vs 4 point? - Mustang Evolution

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Old 05-05-2015, 09:13 PM   #1
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Strut tower brace 2 point vs 4 point?

Basically, is there any difference between having the brace bolted onto the car via 4 bolts via 2 bolts? Can you feel the difference at all?

2 Bolt example
Ford Ford Boss 302 Mustang Strut Tower Brace AR3Z-16A200-A (05-14 GT, V6) - Free Shipping

4 Bolt example
SR Performance Black Mustang Strut Tower Brace 383959 (05-14 GT, V6) - Free Shipping
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Old 05-05-2015, 09:53 PM   #2
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I believe Steeda did some sort of research on this and found that there is no significant difference between the two.

I'm trying to find where I saw that.
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Old 05-05-2015, 10:42 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIG View Post
I believe Steeda did some sort of research on this and found that there is no significant difference between the two.

I'm trying to find where I saw that.
Ah okay, I can see both sides of the coin on how it could be better with 4, and also how it could make minimal difference between it as well.

I looked up a couple threads and some said no difference, one said they noticed improved handling with the 4 point on a vert.
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Old 05-05-2015, 11:42 PM   #4
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Mines the 2 PT. I'd imagine you have a little more strength with 4 point but enough to make a difference? Doubtful but of course this is only opinion.


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Old 05-06-2015, 05:52 AM   #5
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idk, but would like to see a blind test of this, not just someone putting it on and "noticing" a significant improvement.
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Old 05-06-2015, 06:09 AM   #6
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i can tell you right now that the 2 bolt takes half the time to take off
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Old 05-06-2015, 06:18 AM   #7
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Why have you needed to remove it?

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Old 05-06-2015, 06:54 AM   #8
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Why have you needed to remove it?

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any time you need to take the intake manifold off... it needs too come off to change plugs and coil packs. it's not a big deal or anything but still more work lol
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Old 05-06-2015, 10:13 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by VIG View Post
I believe Steeda did some sort of research on this and found that there is no significant difference between the two.

I'm trying to find where I saw that.

+1. You can feel a 2 post just as a 4 post of tightened correctly
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Old 05-06-2015, 10:45 AM   #10
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4 post version like SR looks better, IMHO.


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Old 05-06-2015, 11:10 AM   #11
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I have the 2 bolt. It really did make a big difference in the way the car handles. I believe mine is a BMR.
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Old 05-06-2015, 11:37 AM   #12
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you can't compare a 2 post to a 4 post unless the braces themselves are identical.
I would assume if Steeda did some comparisons they would use identical braces with that one exception.
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Old 05-06-2015, 11:53 AM   #13
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The number of bolts holing it on is of far lesser concern than what material and design has been used to make the bar.
The more bends and less material used, the weaker the bar is going to be. If it's a flimsy POS it won't matter how many bolts you use to put it on.
Most of these bars, as with so many aftermarket parts are primarily designed for aesthetics and the generating of revenue for manufacturers.

A proper bar would be a welded in large diameter tube, triangulated to the firewall with no bends in it...but that won't fit and is difficult to remove....
So bring on the compromises.
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Old 05-06-2015, 12:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabman View Post
Most of these bars, as with so many aftermarket parts are primarily designed for aesthetics and the generating of revenue for manufacturers.
this I believe.
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Old 05-06-2015, 12:27 PM   #15
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Add a K-brace under the car, with the tower brace, and you should feel a difference.
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Old 05-06-2015, 01:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabman View Post
The number of bolts holing it on is of far lesser concern than what material and design has been used to make the bar.
The more bends and less material used, the weaker the bar is going to be. If it's a flimsy POS it won't matter how many bolts you use to put it on.
Most of these bars, as with so many aftermarket parts are primarily designed for aesthetics and the generating of revenue for manufacturers.

A proper bar would be a welded in large diameter tube, triangulated to the firewall with no bends in it...but that won't fit and is difficult to remove....
So bring on the compromises.
^^ All of this. A car does not pitch perfectly side to side when turning, it pivots off the firewall, so something that does not tie back to the firewall will not be nearly as effective as something that does. Naturally on the V6 with the IM design this is next to impossible, but some of the nicer GT bars do.

Notice too that the OEM one has slots for the bolts, not holes, so theres even the possibility of deflection before the bar even starts transferring load.
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Old 05-06-2015, 01:49 PM   #17
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"The more bends and less material used, the weaker the bar is going to be."

Not exactly. Depending on the construction bending metal can actually make it stronger.

Now I have a question. On AM I see some pictures of people with bars that have logos in the center of them. Are they just putting emblems on the flat plate or is there some kind of special plate that bolts on where that plate goes? If it is just a stick on exterior emblem, I just wonder about the tape and paint holding up with the engine heat.
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mung View Post
"The more bends and less material used, the weaker the bar is going to be."

Not exactly. Depending on the construction bending metal can actually make it stronger.

Now I have a question. On AM I see some pictures of people with bars that have logos in the center of them. Are they just putting emblems on the flat plate or is there some kind of special plate that bolts on where that plate goes? If it is just a stick on exterior emblem, I just wonder about the tape and paint holding up with the engine heat.
An obscure point, but point taken none the less.
It would have to be a material that work hardens for that to be true.
In this case, it doesn't apply. Nice try though.
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:16 PM   #19
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Here let me explain a little further. A single straight bar will not be as strong as 2 bent bars. That is not obscure at all, it is engineering. You can take a flat piece of sheet metal and it won't support anything, take that same piece and make it into a box and it will support a lot.

I would put money on the fact that the strut bars made from two bars bent and welded together are MUCH stronger than the single flat metal bars even if the tube bars are lighter material.
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:26 PM   #20
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I'll take your money. You're basically describing a sway bar, the bend(s) essentially makes it a giant spring. The point of a STB is to transfer load, and ANYTHING that gives, yields, moves... reduces the effectiveness of that, so a straight bar is best. The ONLY reason bars are bent is for clearance issues.
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:36 PM   #21
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Sway bars are a different beast. The only way to prove it would be to do break tests on them. First would be pulling it apart from each side, second would be compression the same way, and lastly just for fun would be from the top pushing down on the center mass. All tests done to see where the breaking point is.

Here is another thing that will factor in big time. The big solid bar ones have much more of a chance of having some kind of defect in the metal that would cause it to break. When you cast a single bar like that, you get voids in the metal that cause it to be weak.
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:37 PM   #22
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I'll take your money. You're basically describing a sway bar, the bend(s) essentially makes it a giant spring. The point of a STB is to transfer load, and ANYTHING that gives, yields, moves... reduces the effectiveness of that, so a straight bar is best. The ONLY reason bars are bent is for clearance issues.

I laughed at this more then I probably should have. Pay the man!

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Sway bars are a different beast. The only way to prove it would be to do break tests on them. First would be pulling it apart from each side, second would be compression the same way, and lastly just for fun would be from the top pushing down on the center mass. All tests done to see where the breaking point is.



Here is another thing that will factor in big time. The big solid bar ones have much more of a chance of having some kind of defect in the metal that would cause it to break. When you cast a single bar like that, you get voids in the metal that cause it to be weak.
Nvm. I am out of here. The nerd level is getting over 9000. ::
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:41 PM   #23
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A STB has no need for a tension test... it is never under tension load.
Top pushing down on center mass serves no purpose either because it is not exposed to that load.

It will see compression between the Shock tower, and torsion if properly anchored at the firewall, but again, a triangle is undoubtedly the strongest shape. Firewall - shock tower - shock tower makes a triangle. If you start throwing bends in there you're creating extraneous work, machining, cost, and quite frankly just pointless steps.

You're arguing different points and keep flip flopping between the strength of the material in question, and the purpose of bends vs straight sections.
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:45 PM   #24
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So for example, the Boss brace would be more effective than say the SR brace?


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Old 05-06-2015, 02:48 PM   #25
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No, the Boss brace is a joke and mostly cosmetic.

This is arguably one of the best designs you could possibly have, excluding the fact that the miata is double wishbone vs Macpherson, but thats another discussion altogether.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Coba...ml%3B300%3B202
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:48 PM   #26
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I would think any strut brace is for cosmetics IMO.
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:08 PM   #27
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No, the Boss brace is a joke and mostly cosmetic.

This is arguably one of the best designs you could possibly have, excluding the fact that the miata is double wishbone vs Macpherson, but thats another discussion altogether.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Coba...ml%3B300%3B202
That is the exact type of brace I was talking about. Lots of bends in that.
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:11 PM   #28
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Vs the Boss one that bends directly between the two shock towers, you can see my sway bar analogy now though. Again though, perfectly straight lines, while ideal, are often impossible from a packaging standpoint.

Its also bending from the higher up anchor point (the firewall) to the lower shocktower, so the bend is in the direction of the load. The Boss one, doesnt have an anchor point, it bends in the middle, twice, so really you can expect there to be some give in the middle since there is nowhere for it to anchor except for the other shock tower.
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:16 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mung View Post
"The more bends and less material used, the weaker the bar is going to be."

Not exactly. Depending on the construction bending metal can actually make it stronger.

Now I have a question. On AM I see some pictures of people with bars that have logos in the center of them. Are they just putting emblems on the flat plate or is there some kind of special plate that bolts on where that plate goes? If it is just a stick on exterior emblem, I just wonder about the tape and paint holding up with the engine heat.
First of all, you are talking to an engineer, so lets cut to the chase.
Is it possible for some materials to be work hardened through stress? (bending) Yes.

Are these materials currently being used in today's mass produced strutbars?
No.

In the obscure reference as you have made, would the work hardened material be stronger if it was bent at say, 75 degrees than a non work hardened material of the same dimensions if it were straight? Most doubtful, though that would depend on the loads and geometry of the materiel and finished part.
The fact is that this argument though it does have some small merit is completely irreverent to the discussion at hand so I am giving you the wannabe award and 2 points for trying.




However, I'm deducting 50 points for wasting every bodies time with this foolishness.

Have a nice day.




I'm out.
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:23 PM   #30
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Why do the physics and engineering even matter? Were not here for a lesson, only some simple advice. Play nice.
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:25 PM   #31
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4point might be slightly better but you won't notice the difference. Just my opinion but I'd only buy the 4point if it looks better. Just my .02


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Old 05-06-2015, 03:26 PM   #32
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Why do the physics and engineering even matter?
To be fair, we're discussing suspension... which is 99.99% physics and engineering, sooooooooo
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:27 PM   #33
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to be fair, we're discussing suspension... Which is 99.99% physics and engineering, sooooooooo
why do we care about science when we are talking about turbos
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:28 PM   #34
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Why do the physics and engineering even matter? Were not here for a lesson, only some simple advice. Play nice.
Because, you have to understand what's happening to understand what's happening....capeeshe?

I'm not the one who brought up the ridiculous stuff, I simply made an observation that was relevant to the question that was asked.

Might as well ask if a blue one is stronger than a green one and then argue about the strength of various pigments for ****sakes.
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:30 PM   #35
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I get it. Lets just not let it get out of hand...capeeshe?
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