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Old 09-25-2015, 03:35 PM   #106
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I don't remember my wife's 3.7 being that slow, then again I only drove it a few times. That is horribly depressing


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I think there was something seriously messed up with his car.
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Old 09-25-2015, 03:36 PM   #107
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I don't remember my wife's 3.7 being that slow, then again I only drove it a few times. That is horribly depressing


🍼and 🌽 fed coyote.
Them 2.73s lol. Valerie was under 3k in 3rd at 50mph, i told her she missed 3rd and went into 5th when we were test driving, but nope ... she was in 3rd. 3.55 is a world of difference now.
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Old 09-25-2015, 03:51 PM   #108
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Them 2.73s lol. Valerie was under 3k in 3rd at 50mph, i told her she missed 3rd and went into 5th when we were test driving, but nope ... she was in 3rd. 3.55 is a world of difference now.
Oh right good point. Ish definitely had 2.73s. So do I, for that matter, so something to keep in mind when y'all are viewing my results.

---------- Post added at 03:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 PM ----------

Volt, congrats on passing your 2,000th post!
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Old 09-25-2015, 04:02 PM   #109
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Oh right good point. Ish definitely had 2.73s. So do I, for that matter, so something to keep in mind when y'all are viewing my results.

---------- Post added at 03:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 PM ----------

Volt, congrats on passing your 2,000th post!
we're just going to measure delta from the baseline look at us, usin fancy words and Shiii


Man, 2,000 posts ... i need to get back to work haha.
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Old 09-25-2015, 04:22 PM   #110
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we're just going to measure delta from the baseline look at us, usin fancy words and Shiii


Man, 2,000 posts ... i need to get back to work haha.
Right, best will be to report the results as a percent change, normalized to the stock tune, stock intake. Eliminate that factor. But, it will affect the absolute number, and not everyone in the audience might understand that, so when we write it up we should mention that to be clear.
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Old 09-25-2015, 04:26 PM   #111
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Diehard - are you aware of how we could get pressure readings after the filter element? I think it is a good idea, but I am personally not aware of how we could do it in conjunction with the trials we have planned for the other tests. It almost sounds like a separate test that would have to be done on a bench-top setup, just looking at the pressure differential before and after the filter element.
That's Volt's call but the first thing that entered my mind was that plugged hole on the side of the intake tube, if it's a manual.
I assume Volt's diff pressure gauge has hoses that could adapt to it.
Actually, I kinda assumed the ram air effect test would position the sensor downstream of the filter, for the best reading. Oh wait, that was for the stock filter. Not sure if stock tube has that extra connection on OE.
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Old 09-25-2015, 04:30 PM   #112
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That's Volt's call but the first thing that entered my mind was that plugged hole on the side of the intake tube, if it's a manual.
I assume Volt's diff pressure gauge has hoses that could adapt to it.
Actually, I kinda assumed the ram air effect test would position the sensor downstream of the filter, for the best reading. Oh wait, that was for the stock filter. Not sure if stock tube has that extra connection on OE.
I have an auto. Wherever we position the sensor for the ram air test, we'd have to do it for not just the stock intake but all of them to have any meaningful comparison. But I don't know how Volt's pressure gauge works and how he/we are planning to mount it, so let's let him enlighten us on that.
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Old 09-25-2015, 04:47 PM   #113
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I have an auto. Wherever we position the sensor for the ram air test, we'd have to do it for not just the stock intake but all of them to have any meaningful comparison. But I don't know how Volt's pressure gauge works and how he/we are planning to mount it, so let's let him enlighten us on that.
Its just a magnahelic gauge

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=magnahelic+gauge

I was going to place it in the stock snorkel, so it would read in the stock box under the panel filter, and just read under the open element filter in the steeda application. This is the same gauge i used when measuring the hood scoop on my mazdaspeed3, so its pretty accurate for things like this, and the same gauge i used in this thread: General discussion on pressure zones
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Old 09-25-2015, 05:00 PM   #114
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I'm definitely approaching this in an objective, scientific manner, and I know Voltwings is as well. I'll conduct these experiments in the same controlled way that I conduct my own experiments in the lab for my job (research scientist and professor at Texas A&M). Doing it because I want to answer the question, not to prove a certain point-of-view.

Diehard - are you aware of how we could get pressure readings after the filter element? I think it is a good idea, but I am personally not aware of how we could do it in conjunction with the trials we have planned for the other tests. It almost sounds like a separate test that would have to be done on a bench-top setup, just looking at the pressure differential before and after the filter element.
Add a bung where you want to see pressure, then use a pressure transducer. I was reading an SAE article where they did a bench-top test of automotive intakes using a subwoofer in a box to replicate the pulsating volumetric demand at the same frequency of pulses that would be seen through the intake.

I will try to find it again so I can get more details on how they set that test up. We just got some instrumentation that will enable us to very precisely see the pressure differential in the intake runner, cylinder, and exhuast while the engine is running. We just ordered a combustion imaging camera that is also very fast
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:16 PM   #115
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Add a bung where you want to see pressure, then use a pressure transducer. I was reading an SAE article where they did a bench-top test of automotive intakes using a subwoofer in a box to replicate the pulsating volumetric demand at the same frequency of pulses that would be seen through the intake.

I will try to find it again so I can get more details on how they set that test up. We just got some instrumentation that will enable us to very precisely see the pressure differential in the intake runner, cylinder, and exhuast while the engine is running. We just ordered a combustion imaging camera that is also very fast
Oh that is very cool. My best friend is a researcher at Sandia National Labs in Livermore, CA doing combustion research. In his PhD work when we were at Univ. of Michigan they used an optically clear combustion chamber and high speed imaging to visualize it.
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Old 09-25-2015, 07:16 PM   #116
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Oh that is very cool. My best friend is a researcher at Sandia National Labs in Livermore, CA doing combustion research. In his PhD work when we were at Univ. of Michigan they used an optically clear combustion chamber and high speed imaging to visualize it.
Very interesting to me that you named those 3 organizations as well as the optical combustion engine. I don't want to give out too much personal information, but I have a mutual acquaintance with somebody who did that same project at Michigan Tech. In their setup, they used saphire windows in the piston with a mirror inside of it at a 45 degree angle so they could get an upward view of the combustion by looking at it from the side. Its been done near me at UW Madison as well from what I've been told. I think I would be out-of-place to start talking too much about who I know from sandia labs, but it wasn't at their California location though.
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Old 09-25-2015, 07:43 PM   #117
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Very interesting to me that you named those 3 organizations as well as the optical combustion engine. I don't want to give out too much personal information, but I have a mutual acquaintance with somebody who did that same project at Michigan Tech. In their setup, they used saphire windows in the piston with a mirror inside of it at a 45 degree angle so they could get an upward view of the combustion by looking at it from the side. Its been done near me at UW Madison as well from what I've been told. I think I would be out-of-place to start talking too much about who I know from sandia labs, but it wasn't at their California location though.
Sounds like we need to talk offline. BTW I went to UW Madison a couple months ago. LOVED it. Would love to get a job there if they have a faculty opening. Madison reminded of Ann Arbor very much. Ann Arbor with a big lake! Anyway.... Back to the intake.
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Old 09-25-2015, 08:18 PM   #118
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Its just a magnahelic gauge

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=magnahelic+gauge

I was going to place it in the stock snorkel, so it would read in the stock box under the panel filter, and just read under the open element filter in the steeda application. This is the same gauge i used when measuring the hood scoop on my mazdaspeed3, so its pretty accurate for things like this, and the same gauge i used in this thread: General discussion on pressure zones
So if I understand it correctly, it sounds like you're using it just for pressure and not for differential pressure. And checking for an increase in pressure while car is in motion (ram effect).
I was assuming you would be looking at differential pressure and use hose(looks like 3/16" is used) to access two points (high and low pressure zones).

In looking under my hood for an idea of connection points I discovered one of my lines(calling it a vacuum line for lack of the correct title) was not connected to where it obviously was suppose to connect to.
Although I attached the pictures here, I plan on starting a new thread for questions on exactly what those lines are suppose to be doing and why I didn't get any negative symptoms with the open vacuum connection.

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Unconnected Vacuum Line - ???
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:06 PM   #119
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So if I understand it correctly, it sounds like you're using it just for pressure and not for differential pressure. And checking for an increase in pressure while car is in motion (ram effect).
I was assuming you would be looking at differential pressure and use hose(looks like 3/16" is used) to access two points (high and low pressure zones).

In looking under my hood for an idea of connection points I discovered one of my lines(calling it a vacuum line for lack of the correct title) was not connected to where it obviously was suppose to connect to.
Although I attached the pictures here, I plan on starting a new thread for questions on exactly what those lines are suppose to be doing and why I didn't get any negative symptoms with the open vacuum connection.

Attachment 191525
Unconnected Vacuum Line - ???
Looking at his gauge and the other thread he has on the hood vent pressure test he did, the gauge is for differential pressure, not absolute pressure. Which makes sense... I mean, all pressure gauges are essentially differential... just one end would be open to atmosphere if you want an "absolute" measurement. Now as for what Volt wants to measure, yes you are right, he said ram air effect which would be in front of the intake while the car is in motion, but that still needs to be measured with respect to something else. He needs to connect the other hose somewhere. It could be the atmosphere, or it could be somewhere behind the element I guess. But we're talking two different tests now. I think to study just the ram effect, one hose should be in front of the filter and another open to atmosphere. To study the differential across the filter, obviously one in front and one behind, but the question is where on my car would you do that. Maybe the PCV inlet?
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:19 PM   #120
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Looking at his gauge and the other thread he has on the hood vent pressure test he did, the gauge is for differential pressure, not absolute pressure. Which makes sense... I mean, all pressure gauges are essentially differential... just one end would be open to atmosphere if you want an "absolute" measurement. Now as for what Volt wants to measure, yes you are right, he said ram air effect which would be in front of the intake while the car is in motion, but that still needs to be measured with respect to something else. He needs to connect the other hose somewhere. It could be the atmosphere, or it could be somewhere behind the element I guess. But we're talking two different tests now. I think to study just the ram effect, one hose should be in front of the filter and another open to atmosphere. To study the differential across the filter, obviously one in front and one behind, but the question is where on my car would you do that. Maybe the PCV inlet?
Looks like the unit he has can be used to measure pressure, vacuum or diff pressure.
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:23 PM   #121
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This thread used to be simple enough for me to understand. But now Voltwings has ascended to the level of "godd*** genius" and I can no longer follow.
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:32 PM   #122
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This thread used to be simple enough for me to understand. But now Voltwings has ascended to the level of "godd*** genius" and I can no longer follow.
Totally agree! Wtf peeps. Lol. Its just a cold air intake. Get it or don't. Its a $300 dollar piece. Its not a life changing product here. 😉

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Old 09-25-2015, 09:33 PM   #123
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Totally agree! Wtf peeps. Lol. Its just a cold air intake. Get it or don't. Its a $300 dollar piece. Its not a life changing product here.

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I think people have been touched in many ways by this thread....
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:35 PM   #124
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LOL

Who said discussions on CAI's are dead?
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:35 PM   #125
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This thread used to be simple enough for me to understand. But now Voltwings has ascended to the level of "godd*** genius" and I can no longer follow.
Thats Voltwings for ya, lol





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Totally agree! Wtf peeps. Lol. Its just a cold air intake. Get it or don't. Its a $300 dollar piece. Its not a life changing product here. 😉

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Ebay... $50 for the same cheap crap tube, then you can buy a good filter.
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:38 PM   #126
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Thats Voltwings for ya, lol







Ebay... $50 for the same cheap crap tube, then you can buy a good filter.
Sold, done deal! 😜

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Old 09-25-2015, 09:45 PM   #127
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Looks like the unit he has can be used to measure pressure, vacuum or diff pressure.
What I'm saying is all three of those things are the same thing... Pressure is a differential measurement. What you are calling "pressure" is positive differential pressure, what you are calling "vacuum" is negative differential pressure. All pressure gauges have to measure across two things. So yes he can measure pressure and vacuum on the same gauge but it does that by measuring differential pressure across wherever he connects the two hoses... leaving one end open to atmosphere is an option if you want to get the so-called absolute pressure.

What we do depends on what people are interested in. We could do both ram air effect and differential across the filter element, but just realize that doing all of these will take a lot of time. Personally I think differential across the element is not really related to the main point of this study - evaluating aftermarket CAIs against stock. The ram air test has the benefit of being able to run parallel to our other tests... we could mount the pressure gauge while running our other trials, no added time to test.
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:55 PM   #128
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What I'm saying is all three of those things are the same thing... Pressure is a differential measurement. What you are calling "pressure" is positive differential pressure, what you are calling "vacuum" is negative differential pressure. All pressure gauges have to measure across two things. So yes he can measure pressure and vacuum on the same gauge but it does that by measuring differential pressure across wherever he connects the two hoses... leaving one end open to atmosphere is an option if you want to get the so-called absolute pressure.

What we do depends on what people are interested in. We could do both ram air effect and differential across the filter element, but just realize that doing all of these will take a lot of time. Personally I think differential across the element is not really related to the main point of this study - evaluating aftermarket CAIs against stock. The ram air test has the benefit of being able to run parallel to our other tests... we could mount the pressure gauge while running our other trials, no added time to test.
Yes, somewhat familiar with that stuff. Worked with environmental consulting engineers for over 40 years. A few years of that in the instrumentation dept. But in any case after working a lifetime with engineers in different fields, one tends to pick up a little bit of a lot of things. Ended up working as a plumbing/fire protection engineer, before retiring.
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:04 PM   #129
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Yes, somewhat familiar with that stuff. Worked with environmental consulting engineers for over 40 years. A few years of that in the instrumentation dept. But in any case after working a lifetime with engineers in different fields, one tends to pick up a little bit of a lot of things. Ended up working as a plumbing/fire protection engineer, before retiring.
Hey man you don't need to validate yourself, you've helped me a ton on this forum with my water pump issues. All I'm trying to do is figure out what we're all talking about to make sure we collect the data that people want. I'd really like to hear what people are interested in, because I want questions to be answered for good. No more of this "my butt dyno says it makes a difference" and "people who I consider to be very knowledgeable said so". My goal is to have one very solid write-up that everyone can reference to see quantifiable results. And I don't want to have to do multiple experiments on multiple weekends in order to do that. So anything you guys can tell me about what you want to see is valuable to me and Voltwings.

So the question is: what do you all care about more - ram air effect or differential pressure across the filter element? And hey, maybe we'll do both, if it doesn't take a whole lot more time.
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:12 PM   #130
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Ram air is very easy to measure, differential is not haha. Personally, differential wont really be relevant i feel, because it will only matter towards people using the exact same filter, in the exact same condition as the one tested.

To answer the earlier question, one hose from the gauge will go to the stock airbox, through the snorkel in the front, the other will be left open to the cabin with the windows down for a measurement against atmosphere.
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:33 PM   #131
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^^ I agree 100%.
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Old 09-26-2015, 12:05 PM   #132
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I know this will never happen ___BUT---

Would it not be nice to find someone with a stock 3.7 V6 and without ever been tuned and stock exhaust still on it to do this test?????????
A totally un-modified Mustang.

Time it with the stock air box.
Time it with the Airaid.
See if there is a difference. Not on a dyno because without outside air flow it would not be a test at all.
Actually driving and timing the run.
Not very scientific but a better real world result.
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Old 09-26-2015, 12:58 PM   #133
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Would it not be nice to find someone with a stock 3.7 V6 and without ever been tuned and stock exhaust still on it to do this test?????????
A totally un-modified Mustang.

Time it with the stock air box.
Time it with the Airaid.
See if there is a difference. Not on a dyno because without outside air flow it would not be a test at all.
Actually driving and timing the run.
Not very scientific but a better real world result.
Ronnie
That's test #1, stock tune and stock intake. Why does it matter if the car has ever been tuned before? And whoever said anything about a dyno?
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Old 09-26-2015, 04:40 PM   #134
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Hey man you don't need to validate yourself, you've helped me a ton on this forum with my water pump issues. All I'm trying to do is figure out what we're all talking about to make sure we collect the data that people want. I'd really like to hear what people are interested in, because I want questions to be answered for good. No more of this "my butt dyno says it makes a difference" and "people who I consider to be very knowledgeable said so". My goal is to have one very solid write-up that everyone can reference to see quantifiable results. And I don't want to have to do multiple experiments on multiple weekends in order to do that. So anything you guys can tell me about what you want to see is valuable to me and Voltwings.

So the question is: what do you all care about more - ram air effect or differential pressure across the filter element? And hey, maybe we'll do both, if it doesn't take a whole lot more time.
Sorry...I was just babbling on.
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Old 09-26-2015, 04:45 PM   #135
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Nobody, including me said anything about a dyno -But-

When you read all of these claims in great horsepower increase, The manufactures always seem to use their Dyno.
I have not seen one single test where they actually went to a drag strip and did a totally stock Mustang and then just added an Airaid with no other modification.
That would tell us something.
I would think if there was a timed difference in stock versus Airaid meaning is the car faster with the Airaid or exactly the same.
I say "Airaid" because it is the most popular.
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Airaid Cold Air intake. red caliper covers, 3.7L performance engine cover, Flat black hood spears.Boss 302 strut brace, CDC rear panel, Trunk Cargo net,--Dash carpet cover,
Viser stickers to cover ugly yellow warning crap,Aluminum driveshafft and Swarr Bar.
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Old 09-26-2015, 07:48 PM   #136
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A lot of times, if you look, they're claiming horsepower gains off peak. There may be a 20 or 30 horsepower increase somewhere along the curve, but at peak it may only be 4 or 5 you know. A lot of places are real bad about doing this with the Boss intake on the GT. Yes, technically it is "X" horsepower over stock, but its misleading because they're not advertising peak numbers.

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Old 09-26-2015, 09:21 PM   #137
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What would be nice---Like I said

Take a stock unmodified 3.7 V6 Mustang and do a run of say 20 mph to 100 mph to eliminate any traction problems with the factory air box.

Take the same exact car and install the Airaid with no other changes other then driving the car for enough miles for the computer to set up for the change. At least 30 or 40 normal driving miles. ( Maybe more)

You can't just change air intakes without driving the car to set up the computer for the change or you will get a false result.

Then do the 20 to 100 again and see if there is a difference in acceleration .

A good stop watch would be needed for consistency.
Sitting on a dyno with no airflow, No tire rolling resistance and no air resistance don't tell a darn thing about weather the Airaid is putting out better real life improvement in actual performance.

If it does perform better on a stock unmodified engine it will probably be way better on a tuned modified car.
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2012-candy red- V-6 MCA, Automatic Trans. CFM Valve cover breather. MMD blackTail light trim.Magnaflow axle back street mufflers, JLT oil catch can.MMD hood struts.
Airaid Cold Air intake. red caliper covers, 3.7L performance engine cover, Flat black hood spears.Boss 302 strut brace, CDC rear panel, Trunk Cargo net,--Dash carpet cover,
Viser stickers to cover ugly yellow warning crap,Aluminum driveshafft and Swarr Bar.
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Old 09-27-2015, 11:32 AM   #138
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Ok, we'll take a look at that.
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Old 09-28-2015, 06:31 AM   #139
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And when that test is done, it will prove that the 300 bucks spent on the CAI would have better been spent on a Tuner. Won't have to drive it around for the computer to calibrate to it, just enjoy the instant performance feel and gain with the tuner.

Again, it's nice eye candy under the hood though.
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Old 09-28-2015, 08:23 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakib View Post
Hey man you don't need to validate yourself, you've helped me a ton on this forum with my water pump issues. All I'm trying to do is figure out what we're all talking about to make sure we collect the data that people want. I'd really like to hear what people are interested in, because I want questions to be answered for good. No more of this "my butt dyno says it makes a difference" and "people who I consider to be very knowledgeable said so". My goal is to have one very solid write-up that everyone can reference to see quantifiable results. And I don't want to have to do multiple experiments on multiple weekends in order to do that. So anything you guys can tell me about what you want to see is valuable to me and Voltwings.

So the question is: what do you all care about more - ram air effect or differential pressure across the filter element? And hey, maybe we'll do both, if it doesn't take a whole lot more time.
First: I personally want to see the differences between the the inside of the air box (before the air filter). and the as close as possible to the throttle body under full throttle. That will tell me about the restrictions in the stock air inlet circuit. Of course there will be an initial drop until the fluid comes up to speed.

Second: Same test between stock air filter and a "low restriction" air filter would be very informative.

Third: Repeat the test with an aftermarket CAI Kit and stock setup under the same conditions.

I don't know how much humidity would change the results. But I do remember that we could't do wind tunnel tests if the humidity was above a certain percent (don't remember the percentage) I only mention this because from day to day the humidity changes, so I think that they should be made as close as possible time wise.

I hope this post didn't add to the confusion already noted on this thread. I personally am interested in the results. Although this subject has been beat to death, it would be nice to get some empirical results instead of conjecture by people that don't know how to change spark plugs and are trying to justify their purchases to themselves and others.

I would love to do this test myself but I don't have the proper equipment, and I am too anal to use some low buck guages. Probably get the same results, but thats me. I wish you guys that are considering the test were near me, I would love to add my 2 cents and experience to the test procedure.
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