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Old 09-28-2015, 08:45 AM   #141
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Ram air results would also be interesting. We could do a lot with that. Duct positioning and design.
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Old 09-28-2015, 09:05 AM   #142
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idk if any one suggested outside temps (think it was) but I'll suggest doing idle re-learn after intake swap and before test.

trying to elim variables
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Old 09-28-2015, 09:07 AM   #143
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First: I personally want to see the differences between the the inside of the air box (before the air filter). and the as close as possible to the throttle body under full throttle. That will tell me about the restrictions in the stock air inlet circuit. Of course there will be an initial drop until the fluid comes up to speed.

Second: Same test between stock air filter and a "low restriction" air filter would be very informative.

Third: Repeat the test with an aftermarket CAI Kit and stock setup under the same conditions.

I don't know how much humidity would change the results. But I do remember that we could't do wind tunnel tests if the humidity was above a certain percent (don't remember the percentage) I only mention this because from day to day the humidity changes, so I think that they should be made as close as possible time wise.

I hope this post didn't add to the confusion already noted on this thread. I personally am interested in the results. Although this subject has been beat to death, it would be nice to get some empirical results instead of conjecture by people that don't know how to change spark plugs and are trying to justify their purchases to themselves and others.

I would love to do this test myself but I don't have the proper equipment, and I am too anal to use some low buck guages. Probably get the same results, but thats me. I wish you guys that are considering the test were near me, I would love to add my 2 cents and experience to the test procedure.
Thanks a lot for the input. We'll see what we can do. Just so you guys know how long to expect to wait, it doesn't look like Voltwings and I have a common free weekend until October 16. We live a couple hours apart, so it's tough. Given that it will take a few days for the thorough data analysis and write up, you can expect results somewhere around Oct 20-23.
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Old 09-28-2015, 09:13 AM   #144
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idk if any one suggested outside temps (think it was) but I'll suggest doing idle re-learn after intake swap and before test.

trying to elim variables
We'll try to do all the tests as close to each other within the day, hoping that DA doesn't change much. That said, we'll still record temperature and humidity at each run, and normalize results to that, if necessary. Idle re-learn is a great idea, thanks.

I'll see if I can get a detailed protocol written about a week before the experiment and post it up here. That will give everyone a chance for a good review and feedback to make minor changes before we run it.
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Old 09-28-2015, 10:22 AM   #145
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All you need is a "STOP WATCH"

And a friend that knows how to use it.
The tools to change the air intakes and a non-tuned stock mufflers 3.7 Mustang.

Go from about 20mph to 100 mph and see how long it took. ( That is what the stop watch is for) "STOCK MUSTANG

Then install the Airaid and do it again. See how long it took.
This is the only test that will actually tell you what good the Airaid is.
All of the scientific mambo jumbo crap you want to do will not tell you a thing about weather the Airaid is making your car accelerate faster.

A dyno test just plain sucks compared to a real world way to compare by driving the car.
Ronnie
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Old 09-28-2015, 10:33 AM   #146
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you are NOT going to be able to measure anything like that accurately with just a stop watch and someone saying "Go".

Earlier I had mentioned driver being a big part of the equation and still think it is.

still liking this thread and most ones about CAI's I don't
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:10 AM   #147
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And when that test is done, it will prove that the 300 bucks spent on the CAI would have better been spent on a Tuner. Won't have to drive it around for the computer to calibrate to it, just enjoy the instant performance feel and gain with the tuner.

Again, it's nice eye candy under the hood though.
Exactly. I actually had a CAI (air raid) in before I got my SCT tuner so I can say without question that I felt no difference in performance with the $280 CAI so I sent it back. A
Later, after I used the SCT (with no custom tune) I felt a remarkable difference. Literally turned my Stang from a granny Stang to the muscle car it was meant to be.

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Old 09-28-2015, 11:20 AM   #148
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And a friend that knows how to use it.
The tools to change the air intakes and a non-tuned stock mufflers 3.7 Mustang.

Go from about 20mph to 100 mph and see how long it took. ( That is what the stop watch is for) "STOCK MUSTANG

Then install the Airaid and do it again. See how long it took.
This is the only test that will actually tell you what good the Airaid is.
All of the scientific mambo jumbo crap you want to do will not tell you a thing about weather the Airaid is making your car accelerate faster.

A dyno test just plain sucks compared to a real world way to compare by driving the car.
Ronnie
The datalogger has a MPH PID as well as a time PID, We had already said we were going to compare those.

Now, what the scientific mambo jumbo crap will tell us is:
-The amount of air each intake is pulling in at any given point - you can then compare the max and average between the two.
-The amount of "heat" its pulling in (via IAT measurements) - and whether or not it gets better / worse through a pull, sitting at idle...
-Any ram air effect that the stock box may have that an open element filter will not. This will never show up on a dyno, so this is really the only way to test whether a CAI actually pulls any additional air than the stock box.
Having a datalog will also allow us to create a "virtual dyno" of the plot, since all it essentially is, is RPM over time. This will also show where in the RPM band any gains are occurring.

We'll get the 20-100 or whatever by default when we're getting everything else, but since we're already getting everything else, we may as well look at that data too.
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:24 AM   #149
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and by 20-100 we know you meant 20-65.....
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:33 AM   #150
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And a friend that knows how to use it.
The tools to change the air intakes and a non-tuned stock mufflers 3.7 Mustang.

Go from about 20mph to 100 mph and see how long it took. ( That is what the stop watch is for) "STOCK MUSTANG

Then install the Airaid and do it again. See how long it took.
This is the only test that will actually tell you what good the Airaid is.
All of the scientific mambo jumbo crap you want to do will not tell you a thing about weather the Airaid is making your car accelerate faster.

A dyno test just plain sucks compared to a real world way to compare by driving the car.
Ronnie
"Scientific mumo jumbo"-- then proceeds to list the steps to make what is basically a scientific experiment to test the performance of it.

By the way, the scientific mumbo jumbo is the only way you will be able to discern a difference that is as small as that brought by a "CAI". Its such a small difference that you need to be precise in measuring it and know the actual properties of it. That's part of how they make things that actually work. Testing 500 bad designs is expensive and still wont get the best result for the money.
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Old 09-28-2015, 12:44 PM   #151
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Thank you, Volt, Panther, and Mud. I've been shaking my head all morning.
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Old 09-28-2015, 01:50 PM   #152
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about 20 mph to at least 100mpg

To 65 is better then nothing but to 100 would be better.
I thought you wanted to check actual performance between the stock air box and the Airaid.

Run stock against the Airaid for a real life answer.
As far as using a stop watch, I said get someone that actually knows how to use one.

The alternative is to go to the drag strip and let the Chrondikes do the timing.
Then you would have to go from dead stop and have wheel spin to contend with.

The stock Ford airbox and tube are so different they will show different air flow and any other discrepancies when compared to the Airaid.

Timing the runs is the best way to compare the outcome of each one.
An automatic transmission would even be better for better consistency.

Ronnie
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Old 09-28-2015, 02:43 PM   #153
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SCT datalogs out to the thousandth of a second, so your buddy would have to be rrreeeaaall good with a stopwatch.
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Old 09-28-2015, 02:46 PM   #154
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Ronnie please stop digging your hole deeper lol.

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Old 09-28-2015, 02:50 PM   #155
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The best part is, there is still gonna be 2,000 more Which CAI is the best threads and Is getting a CAI worth it threads. Ha ha ha. I say, hell yes to CAI if you want a good looking piece of engine candy and an awesome sound while WOT.

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Old 09-28-2015, 03:01 PM   #156
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Thinking Out Loud

Thinking about this Ram air effect test on the stock box versus the so-called "open element filters".
Of course both Airaid and Steeda intake box connect to the stock rectangular intake from the grille area. So if there is a measurable difference between the stock and the aftermarket it would be as the result of the integrity of the Airaid/Steeda box tightness (against the hood and other small openings).
I don't know what the vacuum pressure is as the result of the intake draw from the engine but we already know that we get engine compartment air from the aftermarket boxes as shown by air inlet temp differences when car is not moving forward. So this shows that the aftermarket boxes are benefitting from the ram air effect at higher speeds, as well.
What we would like to assume is that a slightly higher ram air pressure on the stock box and filter, as opposed to that on an aftermarket set-up, results in more air to the throttle body. But with the introduction of an opening in the airway, by way of the sloppy fitting air box, it changes the effects of the engines vacuum pressure at the gauge location, and the resulting ram air pressure. So are any difference in reading really going to prove anything?
I am simply playing the devil's advocate, for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further.
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Old 09-28-2015, 03:02 PM   #157
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You guys are taking this CAI thing to the next level...
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Old 09-28-2015, 03:04 PM   #158
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Thinking about this Ram air effect test on the stock box versus the so-called "open element filters".
Of course both Airaid and Steeda intake box connect to the stock rectangular intake from the grille area. So if there is a measurable difference between the stock and the aftermarket it would be as the result of the integrity of the Airaid/Steeda box tightness (against the hood and other small openings).
I don't know what the vacuum pressure is as the result of the intake draw from the engine but we already know that we get engine compartment air from the aftermarket boxes as shown by air inlet temp differences when car is not moving forward. So this shows that the aftermarket boxes are benefitting from the ram air effect at higher speeds, as well.
What we would like to assume is that a slightly higher ram air pressure on the stock box and filter, as opposed to that on an aftermarket set-up, results in more air to the throttle body. But with the introduction of an opening in the airway, by way of the sloppy fitting air box, it changes the effects of the engines vacuum pressure at the gauge location, and the resulting ram air pressure. So are any difference in reading really going to prove anything?
I am simply playing the devil's advocate, for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further.
The amount of air the engine pulls in is independent of how much is being fed to the filter / airbox. All ram air proves is more power (airflow) potential, not necessarily that there is.

What this test will essentially do is show how much air is available to the intake for "consumption." We'll then take it a step further and measure G/s (grams per second) at the MAF and see how much of that potential is in fact being ingested.
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Old 09-28-2015, 03:16 PM   #159
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The amount of air the engine pulls in is independent of how much is being fed to the filter / airbox. All ram air proves is more power (airflow) potential, not necessarily that there is.

What this test will essentially do is show how much air is available to the intake for "consumption." We'll then take it a step further and measure G/s (grams per second) at the MAF and see how much of that potential is in fact being ingested.
It sounds like you're saying the engine running doesn't affect the pressure in the tube, only the velocity pressure coming in from the front of the tube. I guess it's over my head.
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Old 09-29-2015, 11:22 AM   #160
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Something that would be interesting, if you could compare clean/dirty filters. If someone has a dirty oem one to compare to a new one. If I still had my oem I'd just mail it to you.
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:08 AM   #161
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also remember when you swap out units to place a rag in the lower snorkle so if/when you drop a bolt/socket it doesn't end up way down inside the lower intake!!!!!
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Old 09-30-2015, 11:28 AM   #162
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always fun to watch. the only time they've ever seen a real increase in a cai was on their s2000 without a tune. oh for the air flow on a dyno comment. most good dynos use a rather large induction fan to simulate interstate air flow over the car

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Old 09-30-2015, 12:00 PM   #163
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Ugh, don't even get me started on those dorks, their stuff is so bad i honestly cant tell if its supposed to be satire or not.

On the dyno fans, those are more for cooling a radiator / intercooler than they are to simulate actual driving conditions. For example, the Corvette Vararam intake:

Corvette Air Intake System, Ls3 & Ls7, Snake Charmer, Vararam, 2006-2013

Does not really out perform any other intakes when doing a dyno test, however, when actually at the 1/4 it stomps all of them due to its design and use of Bernoulli's principle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle

Sometimes it just takes getting out there and doing some real world testing because dynos can also fail to simulate load correctly. That was annoying, had a guy perfectly dialed in to a safe 25 psi on the dyno, he goes home and his hitting 28 psi+ on the street ... had to finish up the tune on the street lol.
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Old 09-30-2015, 12:53 PM   #164
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That video looks well made and legit to me and states the same thing that I've read all over the internet... Use your stock intake, keep your filter clean, and spend your $$$ on performance mods that actually help performance. lol
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Old 09-30-2015, 12:53 PM   #165
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The best part is, there is still gonna be 2,000 more Which CAI is the best threads and Is getting a CAI worth it threads. Ha ha ha. I say, hell yes to CAI if you want a good looking piece of engine candy and an awesome sound while WOT.

Non 🍼and non 🌽fed. I $uck!
For **** sake....your right. Idiots will still keep expecting everyone else to do the research for them....
Love the sound it makes for sure.

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Ugh, don't even get me started on those dorks, their stuff is so bad i honestly cant tell if its supposed to be satire or not.

On the dyno fans, those are more for cooling a radiator / intercooler than they are to simulate actual driving conditions. For example, the Corvette Vararam intake:

Corvette Air Intake System, Ls3 & Ls7, Snake Charmer, Vararam, 2006-2013

Does not really out perform any other intakes when doing a dyno test, however, when actually at the 1/4 it stomps all of them due to its design and use of Bernoulli's principle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle

Sometimes it just takes getting out there and doing some real world testing because dynos can also fail to simulate load correctly. That was annoying, had a guy perfectly dialed in to a safe 25 psi on the dyno, he goes home and his hitting 28 psi+ on the street ... had to finish up the tune on the street lol.
Damn, Volt you just keep throwing all this knowledge at us like bricks...I dont know weather to try and catch it or duck for cover! Good info man.

I knew a guy who did the R&D for FUJITA. Basicly would throw a stock car on a dyno, them fabricate an intake and dyno it again until he hit a high number that "looked" good. It was a joke as far as real engineering, but i got a a custom inter-cooler setup from him that was pretty sweet.
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Old 09-30-2015, 12:59 PM   #166
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That video looks well made and legit to me and states the same thing that I've read all over the internet... Use your stock intake, keep your filter clean, and spend your $$$ on performance mods that actually help performance. lol
There are cases where CAIs are an improvement, the mustangs just happen to have a pretty damn good piece from the factory.

Their "test" however are flawed on several levels. They didn't actually use anything made for a specific car, they just slapped a filter on. Head over to the miata forums and you'll find tons of people with homemade intakes making less power than stock. This goes back to that resonance tuning we were talking about earlier, you need at least a 23" intake on a miata to make power, when people take that into consideration, lo and behold, there are gains.

Also, look at that first one they did, there's a kink and a reducer immediately post MAF. This is a big no no as it will cause buffeting and screw up the MAF readings, i'd bet money a proper datalog from that car looks like crap with that set up and explains the power loss. Also, on the subaru, they didn't change the tune ... of course the stock airbox makes plenty of power at stock boost levels, that's what it was designed for! Going to an open element filter on a turbo car doesn't matter until you start upping the boost -_-.

If they want to say what they're saying, they need a ton of disclaimers lol, im getting worked up just sitting over here watching this. All their videos are this bad.
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Old 09-30-2015, 02:09 PM   #167
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Hey Voltwings,
Thank You for saying this:
[QUOTESometimes it just takes getting out there and doing some real world testing because dynos can also fail to simulate load correctly. That was annoying, had a guy perfectly dialed in to a safe 25 psi on the dyno, he goes home and his hitting 28 psi+ on the street ... had to finish up the tune on the street lol.][/QUOTE]

It is what I have been saying and got a lot of grief from the scientific community of Experts.
A real world acceleration comparison is the only way to get true results.

Now, Let me put my goggles on to read the grief I'm gonna read .
Ronnie

---------- Post added at 03:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 PM ----------

Hey Voltwings,
Thank You for saying this:
[QUOTESometimes it just takes getting out there and doing some real world testing because dynos can also fail to simulate load correctly. That was annoying, had a guy perfectly dialed in to a safe 25 psi on the dyno, he goes home and his hitting 28 psi+ on the street ... had to finish up the tune on the street lol.][/QUOTE]

It is what I have been saying and got a lot of grief from the scientific community of Experts.
A real world acceleration comparison is the only way to get true results.

Now, Let me put my goggles on to read the grief I'm gonna read .
Ronnie
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Old 09-30-2015, 02:10 PM   #168
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What the heck

Don't ask me why it posted double like this.
Ronnie
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Old 10-02-2015, 02:22 AM   #169
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If an aftermarket CAI sucked in more air than its currently sucking in and made the bang bigger and more powerful, you would last about 30 seconds before the check engine light and corresponding "Lean" error code.
Only a tune with increase air parameters will get you more air, not a different looking filter, not a fatter looking tube, not some tornado inducing piece of tin. An engine will suck in all the air it could possible need on just your factory box and filter. Any power you think you feel on just "CAI" is the inner ricer in you, trying to justify the $400 you wasted on a BIG cool looking intake.
Get some gears. Get a tune. Get something......anything ...but a CAI ...heck, even switch from 87 to 93 or buy one of those stubby antennas and then you'll "feel" something.
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:42 AM   #170
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that is what we "believe" but why not spend some time with a friend and find out?
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Old 10-02-2015, 07:53 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Waylap1 View Post
If an aftermarket CAI sucked in more air than its currently sucking in and made the bang bigger and more powerful, you would last about 30 seconds before the check engine light and corresponding "Lean" error code.
Not quite. The MAF curve is designed to compensate for exactly these types of things, otherwise you would run lean any time the weather got cooler, or the density changed.

Most MAFs now days rely on:
A given diameter
A temperature node

Basically, you can measure velocity by how much the temperature node is cooled vs ambient air temperature. Then you know the diameter of the MAF curve so you can calculate the density in that given area and know how much fuel to add. The only way for the car to run lean, in this case, would be to change the MAF diameter and not calibrate for it, or exceed the flow limit of the MAF (which you wont do on this car). This is why some air intakes require a tune (steeda) if the MAF diameter changes, and some do not because the MAF diameter is the same as stock.

Keep in mind also, the MAF curve is just the starting point, there are still target AFR tables that the computer will try to reach, and if the MAF curve needs adjusting, the computer can compensate the fuel trims up to about 40% on this platform. Luckily these cars are pretty good at keeping themselves alive, you'd have to mess up pretty bad to actually cause some damage.

I've included a sample MAF curve to hopefully help with this demonstration.
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Old 10-02-2015, 03:40 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnie948 View Post
It is what I have been saying and got a lot of grief from the scientific community of Experts.
A real world acceleration comparison is the only way to get true results.

Now, Let me put my goggles on to read the grief I'm gonna read .
Ronnie
Ronnie, I believe you missed a key point about our experiment and that is why everyone is giving you grief. We are doing a "real world acceleration comparison". We are not going to a dyno. We're doing pretty much what you are telling us to do, except we are using a datalogger to get the times, not a buddy with a stopwatch. It's the same information as a stopwatch, but far more accurate and precise. While we're at it, we're also going to collect the data for MAF, intake air temperature, and ram air pressure, because why not? It doesn't take anything away from the acceleration measurements, just gives us more information to compare intake performance. No one said anything about a dyno. I don't know why you brought it up and are making such a big deal about it. Classic example of a straw man argument. I suggest you go back and read my original post where I detail the experimental protocol. You'll find that it is hardly different from what you're saying.
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:11 PM   #173
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I get it.

I'll just wait to see the results.
Ronnie
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:16 PM   #174
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2 weeks everyone lol ... 2 weeks.
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:48 PM   #175
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Very interested in the results! Do either of you guys have access to an airaid to perform the same test?

Sent from LG G3.
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