Combating heat production on a FI setup - Mustang Evolution

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Old 10-22-2015, 07:08 AM   #1
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Combating heat production on a FI setup

So as i get ready to head back to the US from deployment i realized i missed my car loke crazy an ive got some money that has FI written all over it.
I only have a few mods left before the only thing left i can do besides a rebuilt engine is FI. Searching the threads i found some pieces left out.
Ive looked into both turbos and s/c and for this thread ill stick with s/c because it seems to encounter an extra issue.
First, how much extra strain is put on your engine when running a smaller pulley rated for higher psi combined with with a wastegate? For refrence ill say an 8 rib pulley putting out 14 psi with a wastegate rated for 10 psi.
Second is something i dont see often, but cooling the air. So ive actually read a few books on it and searched the internet pretty well and found a few techniques id like to hear your thoughts.

I read somewhere a guy talking about throwing snow on the intercooler and gaining like 50 hp and it leaked my interest. I read a book on formula one racing and they dont use radiators. Makes sense now that i look at the cars they are needle shaped haha, but they use co2 if i remember correctly? To an extreme extent to combat the insanely high revs.
Ive heard of WRX's spraying water on the intercooler acting like your sweat to pull out heat does anyone use a setup like this? Seems like its be worth the effort if anyone has stats to indefinitely prove it

Lastly has anyone ever tried to inject co2 as a cooling agent? Hahah sounds insane but hey you never know, i have no idea if itd work or how long itd last but what are your thoughts?

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Old 10-22-2015, 07:37 AM   #2
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I am going to get a vortech supercharger... HOPEFULLY soon by end of year but we will see. I think instead of snow they may have been referring to a SNOW brand system. Basically look up methane injection. it does cool down the air/fuel mix for colder combustion and to my understanding not only increases HP but helps lessen the stress on the engine.
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Old 10-22-2015, 07:47 AM   #3
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Definitely run an intercooled setup. Add a meth kit and run ice in intercooler at track.

Friend of mine has a vortech on his 3.7 and is running 11.7@117 with this setup through an auto.

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Old 10-22-2015, 09:05 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swhitfield2013 View Post
So as i get ready to head back to the US from deployment i realized i missed my car loke crazy an ive got some money that has FI written all over it.
I only have a few mods left before the only thing left i can do besides a rebuilt engine is FI. Searching the threads i found some pieces left out.
Ive looked into both turbos and s/c and for this thread ill stick with s/c because it seems to encounter an extra issue.
First, how much extra strain is put on your engine when running a smaller pulley rated for higher psi combined with with a wastegate? For refrence ill say an 8 rib pulley putting out 14 psi with a wastegate rated for 10 psi.
Second is something i dont see often, but cooling the air. So ive actually read a few books on it and searched the internet pretty well and found a few techniques id like to hear your thoughts.

I read somewhere a guy talking about throwing snow on the intercooler and gaining like 50 hp and it leaked my interest. I read a book on formula one racing and they dont use radiators. Makes sense now that i look at the cars they are needle shaped haha, but they use co2 if i remember correctly? To an extreme extent to combat the insanely high revs.
Ive heard of WRX's spraying water on the intercooler acting like your sweat to pull out heat does anyone use a setup like this? Seems like its be worth the effort if anyone has stats to indefinitely prove it

Lastly has anyone ever tried to inject co2 as a cooling agent? Hahah sounds insane but hey you never know, i have no idea if itd work or how long itd last but what are your thoughts?

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I think where you're getting confused is that external cooling devices, Co2, packing snow, etc do not make power. What they do is instead return power that was lost due to heat soak, make sense? The only reason a device like this would return power is because your intercooler core is inefficient and heat soaking your charge air.

Secondly, you do not inject Co2 as a cooling agent, you just spray it on the intercooler, and the gas is freezing as it decompresses so it cools your intercooler. Honestly, this is all a bit superfluous really. Just run a good sized core, and if you're still having Boost Air Temp (BAT) problems, just run a methanol kit and be done with it. I've done tests where in 60* weather a decent methanol kit will pull boost air temps down to the low 40s. Cant do that with water or external Co2 sprayers. No sense in trying to reinvent the wheel.



Taken from the other thread:
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Originally Posted by swhitfield2013 View Post
So i read literally every single one of those links; thanks btw voltwings, i noticed you and a few other mentioned using a bov and a higher psi pulley, also the risk of only the 6 rib pulley on more than a 10psi setup, how much more is that going to harm your engine? Ive heard theories about the 4.10 gears and their effects of revs per mph. Just a guestimation would be nice of how much extra strain like id guess if it was a 14psi pulley, 8 ribs to prevent slip and wastegate of 10psi youd be pushing your car like 20% harder for mid level gains? The only other question i had pertained of ways to negate the heat production of the higher reving supercharger but im gonna start a new thread on it to prevent diluting this one

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FIrst off, its a wastegate, not a BOV. Basically i dont know that there really is any hard math that i can give you to answer that question, without making a ton of assumptions. The point of using the wastegate and higher PSI pulley is to get more boost earlier in the power band. What this essentially does is move your peak torque lower into the powerband, and any time the torque peak is moved lower stress is increased.

Just think of how your legs have to work in various gears / speeds on a mountain bike, its the same concept. Now, really the only way to know how much more "strain" its putting on the motor is to have power figures. I'm pulling these numbers out of my ***, but lets say you were previously making 350 wtq at 4000 rpms, and now with the wastegate you're making 400. 350/400 = .875, so about a 13% increase in "strain" i guess you could call it. Not sure its really relevant, but there it is.
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Old 10-22-2015, 01:33 PM   #5
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BTW, for anyone interested I'm running a killer chiller on my car. Hoping to log iat's tonight but the fluid stays around freezing all the time. No more heat soak between passes. Car has never been this reliable on times. Plus there's no reservoir to refill

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Old 10-25-2015, 04:23 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
I think where you're getting confused is that external cooling devices, Co2, packing snow, etc do not make power. What they do is instead return power that was lost due to heat soak, make sense? The only reason a device like this would return power is because your intercooler core is inefficient and heat soaking your charge air.

Secondly, you do not inject Co2 as a cooling agent, you just spray it on the intercooler, and the gas is freezing as it decompresses so it cools your intercooler. Honestly, this is all a bit superfluous really. Just run a good sized core, and if you're still having Boost Air Temp (BAT) problems, just run a methanol kit and be done with it. I've done tests where in 60* weather a decent methanol kit will pull boost air temps down to the low 40s. Cant do that with water or external Co2 sprayers. No sense in trying to reinvent the wheel.



Taken from the other thread:


FIrst off, its a wastegate, not a BOV. Basically i dont know that there really is any hard math that i can give you to answer that question, without making a ton of assumptions. The point of using the wastegate and higher PSI pulley is to get more boost earlier in the power band. What this essentially does is move your peak torque lower into the powerband, and any time the torque peak is moved lower stress is increased.

Just think of how your legs have to work in various gears / speeds on a mountain bike, its the same concept. Now, really the only way to know how much more "strain" its putting on the motor is to have power figures. I'm pulling these numbers out of my ***, but lets say you were previously making 350 wtq at 4000 rpms, and now with the wastegate you're making 400. 350/400 = .875, so about a 13% increase in "strain" i guess you could call it. Not sure its really relevant, but there it is.
Thanks i appreciate it an ya i looked it up it was someone on here that talked about putting snow on the intercooler, he said they threw snowballs on it then shovelled snow on it to lower the air temp just to see what would happen i was kinda curious as to how practicle that actually was, idk if id ever run meth injection ive always been kinda sceptical of it also kinda seems like a pain in the *** for a dd.
Maybe a time will come that i have nothing else to do to my car then i might hahah i have read about the great effects of running meth injection though seems pretty solid

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Old 10-25-2015, 04:26 AM   #7
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The part i was confused on was so in a few of the books they reffered to lowering the air temp to enrich the amount of oxygen psi entering the engine allowing more fuel and air per combustion equalling more power, just wondered if anyone had anything besides meth injection on their cars for those types of things or different ways they cool the air besides just an air to air

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Old 10-25-2015, 04:27 AM   #8
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Figured id see what i get or ideas seems like most the post in this section are plastidip results which make me cringe or which cai is better

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Old 10-25-2015, 04:34 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Sterlingbeast5.0 View Post
I am going to get a vortech supercharger... HOPEFULLY soon by end of year but we will see. I think instead of snow they may have been referring to a SNOW brand system. Basically look up methane injection. it does cool down the air/fuel mix for colder combustion and to my understanding not only increases HP but helps lessen the stress on the engine.
Hope you have luck with fi, but ya they were literally refering to throwing snow on the intercooler IOT lower air temps raising the amount of oxygen per psi of air to creat a different tune for higher hp, not realistically but just for fun apparently, methane injection seems alright ive read on it before some are good some are bull****,
Ive seen one online variant (not methane injection) but you pour water in a tank then it electrifies it so seperate the oxygen and hydrogen using your battery then suppliments higher oxygen and extra explosive hydrogen into the fuel mixture?
Sounds like bull to me considering youre talking about using your car battery to chemically seperate water to use for combustion?

As for methane ive read about the lower combistion temps and more complete burn provided but idk bout lessening stress on the engine or not id have to look more into that

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Old 10-27-2015, 05:27 PM   #10
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Swain Technologies up in New York has an awesome ceramic coating process which is regarded in my field as the best in the business. If I decide to get serious about this car (I bought it and have been campaigning it on the cheap to make a point), quite a few things will get sent to them (ITB's, manifolds, headers, intake tubes, filter boxes, etc).
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:38 PM   #11
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i would love to see ITBs on this car lol.
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:56 PM   #12
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i would love to see ITBs on this car lol.
they're like 2100 pounds...

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Old 10-28-2015, 06:02 PM   #13
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That's 2100 British Pound of course, equaling 3206.49 US Dollar.
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Old 10-28-2015, 06:24 PM   #14
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Oh yeah, you can build a very nice V8 engine for what i was looking to spend on a 2.0L (up from 1.8 stock) screamer of a motor for the miata ... then i just decided that was silly and scrapped the whole idea lol. NA has its place, especially on a road course, but man its hard to stomach the price sometimes. Dropping like 9k for 200 whp ... could just swap a damn K series Honda motor for that much and be making a ton more power. Thats neither here nor there though /threadjack.
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