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Old 02-29-2016, 05:21 PM   #1
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OE Horsepower numbers and the future

So back in the day a 305hp N/A Cobra was touted as the ultimate engine performance under 40k ish...Now with our v6's coming out with 305 and the gt's with 400 ish out of the gate...

when will the average consumer become bored and complain their twin turbo corolla at 500 crank hp from the factory is just too slow? lol

Just a thought I had after work about the timeline of engine efficiency and diminishing returns/horsepower limits and driver satisfaction, what do you guys think?
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:54 PM   #2
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One important thing to consider is horsepower relative to the weight of the car. Although HP has gone up cars now weigh a lot more then they did 15-20 years ago. I could be wrong but I think as companies continue to get the weight down they will reduce performance for fuel efficiency to meet government regulations. I don't really see the day when everyone is driving 10-11 second cars from the factory. I think performance with continue to be show cased in the limited models like the GT350, Z/28, etc.


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Old 02-29-2016, 07:54 PM   #3
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One important thing to consider is horsepower relative to the weight of the car. Although HP has gone up cars now weigh a lot more then they did 15-20 years ago. I could be wrong but I think as companies continue to get the weight down they will reduce performance for fuel efficiency to meet government regulations. I don't really see the day when everyone is driving 10-11 second cars from the factory. I think performance with continue to be show cased in the limited models like the GT350, Z/28, etc.


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I guess you can argue the weight of more technology and equipment to move along a heavier car with "little effort" for the drivers mind, but maybe your right...wondering where the top of the line shelby's will be at in 15-20 years..800-900 HP supercharged at ~60k MSRP? (in future dollars worth)
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Old 03-01-2016, 07:05 AM   #4
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It would be interesting to compare HP-to-weight ratios for all these cars.
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Old 03-01-2016, 07:12 AM   #5
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We are at the point now where you haven't really seen power numbers go up on passenger cars. I mean Maximas were at 260hp back in the early 2000s just as an example.


For the performance cars yeah but the S550 kind of illustrates for the average joe consumer you do not need to go up much more than the 400hp mark.


I honestly do not think we are going to see much more of a jump in power except for extreme applications. We are going to see more and more cars touting technology, integration and eventually auto drive over power numbers.
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Old 03-01-2016, 08:01 AM   #6
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Off the top of my head the new v6 Altima is roughly a little more hp than the previous generations but it's still less than 300 crank I think it was 280 hp


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Old 03-01-2016, 08:34 AM   #7
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I saw an article the other day that compared "muscle" cars from the late 60's and early 70's to a Toyota Sienna minivan of 2016.
The Sienna does 0 to 60 in 8.1 seconds. The list of cars back then that could not beat that time was impressive:
390 Mustang GT
350 Camaro
383 Charger
Barracuda S

All of these cars did the sprint in 8.2 or worse, according to road tests of that time. I think that we romanticize somewhat how fast cars were --- but one thing is for certain..........the improvement in performance up to this time has been immense. Current cars like the Chiron with 1,500 HP and 0 to 60 in under 2.4 seconds? That is insane, and would outperform an Indy car from 1970.
All kinds of cars with 500 to 750 HP doing 60 mph in way less than 4 seconds today as well. I don't think that this kind of improvement can continue, and that we have reached a plateau where manufacturers are nearly complicit in putting TOO much HP in the hands of those who simply are not equipped to handle it. Add in every other driver texting as they drive, and autonomous cars on the horizon, and strict "performance" is going to be minimized more and more. Millennials are not going to care about HP, only that their new car is able to drive up to them unaided, transport them to an address without touching the gas or steering wheel, and then go park itself.
We who care about cars like a 568 HP GT 350 are becoming the exception to the rule......
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Old 03-01-2016, 09:41 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarzTA17 View Post
One important thing to consider is horsepower relative to the weight of the car. Although HP has gone up cars now weigh a lot more then they did 15-20 years ago. I could be wrong but I think as companies continue to get the weight down they will reduce performance for fuel efficiency to meet government regulations. I don't really see the day when everyone is driving 10-11 second cars from the factory. I think performance with continue to be show cased in the limited models like the GT350, Z/28, etc.


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I was just wondering where the cars weigh more comes in, I know if you go back to my 1973 Cougar that came out with 265 HP from the factory and weighed in 700 pounds more than my Mustang.
Cars and trucks both have actually lost weight from the original street legal predecessors.
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Old 03-01-2016, 12:56 PM   #9
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Nobody was driving anything close to stock in the day! It was common to have 3000-4000 dollars more in your motor after your purchase. Not just these add on mods...but to have motors balanced, blueprinted, new Pistons, rods, cams, heads milled and so forth. Technology has definitely evened the playing field....but make no mistake about it....we had some very fast street machines in the day!


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Old 03-01-2016, 01:15 PM   #10
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It is Crazy how it has gone. We are in the heyday I believe.

The last 5-7 years has been huge in performance bumps. Optimizing has become a necessity because of fleet regulation and such. Obviously technology is parallel to that as well.

My girldfriend has a 66 fastback GT, I remember all our kids said we had to race when I got my 2013. She will kill you. LOL. The Ecoboost kills her.

I would annihilate my two childhood "dream" cars. Countach and Testarossa
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Old 03-01-2016, 01:40 PM   #11
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Your messing with the small dogs....go run down some big blocks.


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Old 03-01-2016, 09:54 PM   #12
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It is Crazy how it has gone. We are in the heyday I believe.

The last 5-7 years has been huge in performance bumps. Optimizing has become a necessity because of fleet regulation and such. Obviously technology is parallel to that as well.

My girldfriend has a 66 fastback GT, I remember all our kids said we had to race when I got my 2013. She will kill you. LOL. The Ecoboost kills her.

I would annihilate my two childhood "dream" cars. Countach and Testarossa
Same here about the Countach, and I had never thought of this until recently. It's amazing that we now have performance cars that are affordable, and can run circles around the euro exotics of the 80's to early 90's.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:48 PM   #13
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I think we are close to the high end of what is possible with NA cars. With VVTI and DI (Variable Valve Timing and Ignition and Direct Injection), there isn't much room for improvement.

My guess is maybe another 15 - 20% more power per liter before we really hit a solid wall with NA engines and spark ignition.

Forced induction is a whole different thing. I think with turbo's making such a huge come back and with how much better they are now with variable geometry, twin scroll, bearings, oiling, etc.. Most manufacturers are going to start prioritizing smaller forced induction engines to replace their larger NA engines. Ford, GM, Mercedes, BMW, Honda are all doing this now. Hell ... Ferrari even replaced the 458's V8 with a smaller twin-turbo V8, and remember, Ferrari despises forced induction for road cars.

I think smaller displacement turbo's with electric assist are where things are headed.


As for power, we have enough now. What we need to do is raise the damn speed limits on the interstates and highways to something that is appropriate for the vehicles we have now. Whats the point in having a car with 300+ horsepower with the gearing and efficiency of being able to achieve 25 MPG at 90 MPH when we are stuck at 55 - 70 MPH and 30 MPG. Technology has advanced significantly since the 70's and 80's, it's time the laws do to.


Another thing ... is the electronic nannies and safety in new cars. A 500 hp car built now is a hell of a lot different than a 500 hp car built 20 years ago. The new car could be an every day driver that nearly anyone could get into and drive. Whereas the 20 year old car might just kill you because it would be fun.



Also .. the old big block muscle cars from the 60's and early 70's were turds from the factory. Their SAE Gross hp ratings are so inflated it's comical.

Here is a good article where they take the old GM classics and dyno them .. the results are like I mentioned, funny.
Chevrolet Muscle Car Dyno Wars - 1970 LS6 Chevelle - Super Chevy Magazine

For example, the 1970 LS6 Chevelle was one of the fastest cars from the era. Rated at 450 hp and 500 lb ft. When dyno'd, put down less power than a stock LS1 Fbody... it made 283 RWHP and 320RWTQ. FWIW, the ram air LS1 Fbody generally dyno'd around 310 RWHP and 320RWTQ.
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Old 03-01-2016, 11:06 PM   #14
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The bigger problem with the speed limits and utilizing power is the state of the roads in many places in the US and the drivers. You have distracted drivers out the ***, congestion, badly designed traffic patterns etc...


Having been to Germany and driving on their roads... those guys do it the hell right. Asphalt laid down double as thick as we do, way better designs, when they repair a road the shut down the road and you find another route. None of this quickie shut down a lane and re-pave the closed lane as fast as possible with a thin layer laid down on an old layer. And their workers actually give a **** about the workmanship too... Probably has something to do with the fact that they are all paid a good living wage there. Anyway...


So doing 90-100mph on the Autobahn is very safe and everyone seems to actually know the rules of the road and will not ride in the left lane unless they are actually passing and if they are and an even faster car is coming up on them they will get the hell out of the way. Dude in a big power car doing 140mph is going to come up QUICK in your rearview if you are being an idiot driving in the left lane at 80 and they are aware of this. I would not trust 3/4 of American drivers in a scenario like that.


#rant
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Old 03-02-2016, 12:49 AM   #15
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Auto-driven electric motor vehicles, transporting passengers quickly and efficiently will eventually become the norm...but until then, engineers will continue to build faster, more exciting and safer vehicles as long as we buy them
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Old 03-02-2016, 03:15 AM   #16
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I'll actually be the one who gets rotten fruit thrown at me and suggest that mass transit is going to start making more and more of a comeback. That and the ability of more and more ppl to telework for a lot of "white collar" jobs.


I'm still waiting for my jetpack personally.
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