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Old 10-11-2016, 05:24 PM   #1
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Dyno pull is confusing me...

Hello everyone, I am a bit confused at the moment...

Here's my car's set up:
2014 V6 automatic
K&N cold air intake
BBK 73 mm throttle body
JBA shorty headers
Roush exhaust
BAMA race tune with 93 octane gas

So, the shorties just got installed today and they did a quick dyno pull to check the air to fuel ratio.

The thing that is confusing me is the result...
Max Power =256.02, Max Torque = 261.75

Now, I don't know what the stock rwhp is, but I have searched this site and did a google search for other sites and the numbers for their bone stock dyno pulls seem much more impressive than my 1 pull with those mods. From what I saw, it looks like I didn't gain even 1 extra hp from these mods, and that's very disappointing.
So, did I actually waste a good bit of money on upgrades? Are my numbers good or bad? This almost seems worse than stock, but I am a noobie, so meh, wha, wha happened?
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Old 10-11-2016, 05:36 PM   #2
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Dyno pull is confusing me...

Only thing that had the potential to gain HP was the throttle body. Even then it wouldn't have been much.


Pick your poison.
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Old 10-11-2016, 06:08 PM   #3
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Only thing that had the potential to gain HP was the throttle body. Even then it wouldn't have been much.


Pick your poison.
Shorty headers show good gains on the 3.7 under the curve but only like 6-8 at peak.
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Old 10-11-2016, 06:13 PM   #4
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Don't worry to much on the numbers. Depending on what type of dyno numbers will differ. As already suggested the bolt ons you listed won't offer many gains in power, but might change where power is made in the power band. Don't be disappointed though keep going and researching future upgrades your car has the potential to be a beast... my 2004 gt made a lot less stock then your v6
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Old 10-11-2016, 06:18 PM   #5
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I guess at this point, the only optimistic high point would be if I haven't actually lost any horse power ;o(. The car definitely feels like it has more pep when I press down on the gas pedal, so it seems like I have gained a little something, perhaps a bit more torque? Now I'm beginning to wonder why I did all of these mods...Somebody cheer me up and tell me I haven't wasted my money foolishly...lol
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Old 10-11-2016, 06:25 PM   #6
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Hi Parkerz28,
You posted your reply while I was typing an entry about needing someone to say something to cheer me up. ;o). Well, the peeps that did the header install for me suggested the next thing to do is a lower gear ratio, and then a super charger. Now, with a super charger I understood that the K&N CAI would go, but they also suggested that I go back to a stock throttle body if I do the super charger. Then after that, a different drive shaft, and possibly a big brake upgrade kit after that. So, yeah, I guess I will continue to do mods, but I guess I need to ask more questions before I do impulse buying. Damn those American Muscle reviews lol.
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Old 10-11-2016, 07:17 PM   #7
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The dyno is wrong. A DOHC motor revving to 7k makes 5.73 more torque than hp? I think not. Post a picture of the graph if you could. There should be close to a 30-40 spread between your peak whp and peak torque on this type of motor.
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Old 10-11-2016, 08:13 PM   #8
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http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...pszpjed1dd.jpg
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Old 10-11-2016, 08:50 PM   #9
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Well, oddly enough the math checks out, although i still dont know that i believe this is 100% accurate.

There are quite a few factors that could lead to a situation like this, so i'll reserve further comments until i've had some time to mull it over, or we get some more information on the situation. Not saying you havent been forthcoming with information, just that we may not know what questions to be asking yet.

Seeing as how your car apparently makes peak hp at 5500 though, the tune is my current suspicion since a factory car makes peak hp at 6500.
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Old 10-11-2016, 10:17 PM   #10
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Hi Voltwings,
Thanks for looking at this for me. Interesting that it might be the tune, because I'm not sure I trust BAMA. The initial tunes that they sent me wouldn't even upload, so the third guy I talked to from BAMA had me on hold forever and then said that I was on hold for so long because my tunes were completely wrong and that he rewrote them from scratch and sent them to me. Those uploaded just fine. When I knew I was ordering the shorty headers, I requested a new tune from BAMA, and they came back and said that I wouldn't need a new tune with those headers and to just use the current ones that I had.

So, for the Racing and Peformance Tune (I'm using the Race Tune):
Octane - 93
Eliminate skip shift - both
Airbox - K&N CAI
Cold Air Kit - Cold Air
Throttle Body - BBK (73mm)
Header Type - Stock
Catback - Roush
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Old 10-12-2016, 04:35 AM   #11
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The bad thing is you don't have the before Dyno sheet.
I still say the best mod I did was the short tubes, it has a lot more low to mid range power. Since that is the RPM range where almost all of us drive makes it a good mod for a street car.
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Old 10-12-2016, 04:55 AM   #12
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Something is wrong. Your dyno numbers are what a 100% stock motor does

Lots of YouTube video's showing dyno pulls with stock 2011+ V6 Mustangs
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Old 10-12-2016, 07:15 AM   #13
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Unfortunately you cant compare numbers alone. I had my own car on 3 different dynos and it made 3 different numbers with like a 50 whp difference between each. My comments on the dyno being wrong were simply how the car managed to make more torque than HP, which should not happen on this type of motor.

I had a similar scenario on my 5.0 with a cobrajet. I had a tall runner manifold, on a DOHC motor, revving to 8k, and my car made 2 more hp than torque. No way, i told the guy his dyno was loaded wrong but he wasn't having it, even after i showed him mathematically it didnt make sense. So i went to another dyno and ended up with a 100 spread between my torque and horsepower, which was much more believable for my setup. The numbers were useless at that point since i had no "before" on that dyno, but i was able to see my powerband, which i was more concerned with.
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Old 10-12-2016, 08:27 AM   #14
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Hi Voltwings

Hi Voltwings,
So, should any dyno see an increase in HP from stock with those mods that I have done? I mean the car definitely has more acceleration than it used to, and its "growl" is back after adding the shorties. It had toned down a bit with the larger throttle body. I've done too many mods in too short a time to make me wonder if all the bits are working together or cancelling each other out in some weird way.
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Old 10-12-2016, 09:47 AM   #15
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Did it shift the point at which the car made peak torque? Were you datalogging the ECU while it was on the dyno?


I bet if you calculate power under the curve, you will find an increase. Power under the curve is what really matters in a street driven car. How much emphasis do you have on what it makes at 9000000 rpm? You leave the stop light at 2500 RPM and cruise at 2000 RPM. 90% of the time, peak hp doesn't add any value to your daily driven V6 imo.
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Old 10-12-2016, 10:49 AM   #16
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Did it shift the point at which the car made peak torque? Were you datalogging the ECU while it was on the dyno?


I bet if you calculate power under the curve, you will find an increase. Power under the curve is what really matters in a street driven car. How much emphasis do you have on what it makes at 9000000 rpm? You leave the stop light at 2500 RPM and cruise at 2000 RPM. 90% of the time, peak hp doesn't add any value to your daily driven V6 imo.
This, unless you live your life a 1/4 mile at a time.
Shorties and the true x pipe over rhe hybrid gave me useable power. Not power you never see on the street.
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:48 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Marcus1234 View Post
Hello everyone, I am a bit confused at the moment...

Here's my car's set up:
2014 V6 automatic
K&N cold air intake
BBK 73 mm throttle body
JBA shorty headers
Roush exhaust
BAMA race tune with 93 octane gas

So, the shorties just got installed today and they did a quick dyno pull to check the air to fuel ratio.

The thing that is confusing me is the result...
Max Power =256.02, Max Torque = 261.75

Now, I don't know what the stock rwhp is, but I have searched this site and did a google search for other sites and the numbers for their bone stock dyno pulls seem much more impressive than my 1 pull with those mods. From what I saw, it looks like I didn't gain even 1 extra hp from these mods, and that's very disappointing.
So, did I actually waste a good bit of money on upgrades? Are my numbers good or bad? This almost seems worse than stock, but I am a noobie, so meh, wha, wha happened?
I have a 2013 with a 6 speed, PP with 331 gears, Airaid Cold Air, 73 MM TB, 93 octane Bama tune, Alum driveshaft and pulled almost the same numbers that you did when I was at the Ford National Show in Carlisle June 2016. No gain over stock that the American Muscle baseline they did before some of these same mods were done.
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Old 10-12-2016, 12:52 PM   #18
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Hi Voltwings,
So, should any dyno see an increase in HP from stock with those mods that I have done? I mean the car definitely has more acceleration than it used to, and its "growl" is back after adding the shorties. It had toned down a bit with the larger throttle body. I've done too many mods in too short a time to make me wonder if all the bits are working together or cancelling each other out in some weird way.
What i would do is take it to the track. If you can get some good, solid, 1/4 mile passes in, you can compare your ET and trap speed to other folks, which will be much more helpful. Dyno numbers, unless done by the same car on the same dyno as a means of comparing before and after mods, are arbitrary.

What is not arbitrary however, is powerband, and the fact that your car, according to this graph, is making peak whp a full 1000 rpms sooner than it should be leads me to believe something is up. The most likely culprit is the tune. That is not me saying you need a new tune, that is me explaining this situation as it makes sense to me.
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Old 10-12-2016, 03:56 PM   #19
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I've dealt with the disappointing Dyno results on my '14 automatic. When you see "Stock" dyno numbers of 260 rwhp, keep in mind that was done with a standard transmission. An automatic has more loss, and, no gear is a 1:1 ratio which makes it all but impossible to get an 'accurate' number. My first time on a dyno (DynoJet, note that different types give different readings, if you want a big number find a MustangDyno, if reality is your forte' then DynoJet is the way to go.) my rwhp was 235 in 4th, I had a Steeda CAI, Steeda tune, BBK 73mm TB, and BBK shorty headers. My heart sank, how could it be so low after those mods, she was definitely quicker, substantially so. So he tried in 3rd, 261. Last week, after going back to stock airbox + adding Accel Supercoils and E3 plugs, 3.55 gears, PLUS MPT tune, 4th gear pull came in at 255, didn't go to 3rd this time. 20HP increase over last 4th gear pull, not bad. My first time at the track I ran 14.7's, after 1st dyno pull, the very best I got to was 14.1's. Last week I ran 13.5's. Don't fret over numbers, just the results.
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Old 10-13-2016, 01:19 PM   #20
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that is not peak power my dyno looked that way on my first pull as well turned out the auto trans was in the wrong gear thanks to adaptive shifting i made 265hp with a stock airbox then removed the airfilter and made another run made 279hp manual shifting
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Old 10-13-2016, 01:38 PM   #21
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Hi Demarianx,
So far that makes the most sense to me! I remember the 2 guys doing the pull, one asking the other about what gear he was in and if it was in manual vs automatic. That is probably what happened. They only did the one pull, well, they did 2, but the first 1 didn't record for some reason. So, yeah, I am now suspecting the dyno pull itself, very good point!
The car is much more quicker, that's for sure, and she sounds great ;o). I was hesitant to push her too far, but the local guy who owns a garage here in town did a test drive and pushed her, sounded fantastic and he was impressed, so that put a grin on my face ;o).
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Old 10-13-2016, 10:52 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post


Well, oddly enough the math checks out, although i still dont know that i believe this is 100% accurate.

There are quite a few factors that could lead to a situation like this, so i'll reserve further comments until i've had some time to mull it over, or we get some more information on the situation. Not saying you havent been forthcoming with information, just that we may not know what questions to be asking yet.

Seeing as how your car apparently makes peak hp at 5500 though, the tune is my current suspicion since a factory car makes peak hp at 6500.

The last place I saw a dyno graph like that was on a Formula SAE car. Specifically in respect to the sudden drop of power at the top. That drop is so linear, that I would expect to see a restrictor plate, which has caused a choke flow past 5500 rpm.
We had this happen on a customer's Miata, and it turned out to be too much advance on the camshaft causing poor cylinder fill. I would take a good hard look at that tune. Specifically look at the VVT angle buckets from 5500 rpm onward.

Speaking of dyno graph sillyness, did anyone happen to see how the gentleman with the ecoboost 3.5 swapped new edge in American Iron at Eastern States Championship got screwed? He had to add over 200 lbs of ballast due to improper dyno operation causing a power spike that does not actually exist at the start of the certification pull. Dyno numbers are VERY easy to manipulate just in terms of day of setup and operations.
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Old 10-14-2016, 07:16 AM   #23
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Well, when this happened, I requested a new tune that night from BAMA and I explained the issue, but I still haven't heard back from them yet...
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Old 10-14-2016, 07:35 AM   #24
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The dyno is wrong. A DOHC motor revving to 7k makes 5.73 more torque than hp? I think not. Post a picture of the graph if you could. There should be close to a 30-40 spread between your peak whp and peak torque on this type of motor.
Nothing unusual about an engine making more peak torque than peak HP. My Ecoobost Mustang from the factory makes more peak torque than peak HP.

Also, just because the engine has a 7k redline does not mean the peak HP needs to be greater than peak torque. Again referring to my Ecoboost Mustang the redline is 6800 rpm but peak HP occurs at 5800 rpm and the HP drops off quite rapidly after 6k rpm, there is not much point in revving it to redline.

To the OP; there is so much variation between chassis dynos that unless you had baselined your car on the same dyno before the mods, there is no way to tell how much power the mods added.

Another thing to keep in mind is Dyno Shops trying to make money Dynoing cars for customers are motivated to make the numbers look as good as possible. Everyone wants to take there car to a shop that has a reputation for big numbers. That being said atmospheric conditions and location effect the numbers an engine produces. There are normalization factors that can be applied to the raw data to allow you to compare the results from a shop in Denver to one in Florida. Just tweaking the normalization factors can make the numbers look better or worse.
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Old 10-14-2016, 10:15 AM   #25
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Nothing unusual about an engine making more peak torque than peak HP. My Ecoobost Mustang from the factory makes more peak torque than peak HP.

Also, just because the engine has a 7k redline does not mean the peak HP needs to be greater than peak torque. Again referring to my Ecoboost Mustang the redline is 6800 rpm but peak HP occurs at 5800 rpm and the HP drops off quite rapidly after 6k rpm, there is not much point in revving it to redline.

To the OP; there is so much variation between chassis dynos that unless you had baselined your car on the same dyno before the mods, there is no way to tell how much power the mods added.

Another thing to keep in mind is Dyno Shops trying to make money Dynoing cars for customers are motivated to make the numbers look as good as possible. Everyone wants to take there car to a shop that has a reputation for big numbers. That being said atmospheric conditions and location effect the numbers an engine produces. There are normalization factors that can be applied to the raw data to allow you to compare the results from a shop in Denver to one in Florida. Just tweaking the normalization factors can make the numbers look better or worse.

The shape of the curve is a characteristic of the engine. If a stock 2.3 EB mustang kept making horsepower at 6800rpm you would question the dyno, not say "all cars are different".

NA 3.7's don't make more torque than horsepower unless something is wrong. In this instance it could be fuel, spark, air, who knows, but up top the motor is not getting the job done (in line with jande063's thoughts). Below 5500rpm the curve looks normal, and most driving will be in this range.
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Old 10-14-2016, 02:02 PM   #26
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that is not peak power my dyno looked that way on my first pull as well turned out the auto trans was in the wrong gear thanks to adaptive shifting i made 265hp with a stock airbox then removed the airfilter and made another run made 279hp manual shifting
Why are you messing with 2 different variables? One of the main requirements in getting a good, usable dyno result is consistency. This allows a fixed starting point for comparing results.
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Old 10-15-2016, 04:44 PM   #27
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The last place I saw a dyno graph like that was on a Formula SAE car. Specifically in respect to the sudden drop of power at the top. That drop is so linear, that I would expect to see a restrictor plate, which has caused a choke flow past 5500 rpm.
We had this happen on a customer's Miata, and it turned out to be too much advance on the camshaft causing poor cylinder fill. I would take a good hard look at that tune. Specifically look at the VVT angle buckets from 5500 rpm onward.

Speaking of dyno graph sillyness, did anyone happen to see how the gentleman with the ecoboost 3.5 swapped new edge in American Iron at Eastern States Championship got screwed? He had to add over 200 lbs of ballast due to improper dyno operation causing a power spike that does not actually exist at the start of the certification pull. Dyno numbers are VERY easy to manipulate just in terms of day of setup and operations.
Yeah, AJ hartman. Really heartbreaking after all the work he put in.
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Old 10-16-2016, 06:46 AM   #28
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So, are you saying if you take your Mustang to a dyno shop that 'hates' Fords and Mustangs, they can make the numbers 'lower' if they want to ?
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Old 10-16-2016, 10:02 AM   #29
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Dyno pull is confusing me...

Ok I haven't read this entire thread yet but here's where you went wrong. I've done so much research on this platform you'd be surprised. Biggest mistake is the Bama tune, you don't get any gains from that company, spend the extra money and go with a MPT tune, you will see gains from just the tune alone. Next thing the CAI. CAIs don't do anything on our cars so don't expect gains from that. The only thing you can do for that to see gains is airaid modular tube and afe drop in filter. The next thing is BBK throttle odd won't do anything either, unless you port your upper and lower intake manifold, but even then the numbers aren't nears as good as when you bore out your stock throttle body. You won't see any gains from your roush axle back no matter what the idiots at American muscle say. As for your jba headers they will get you low end torque numbers. I know people will disagree with what I have to say but this is just my two cents.


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Old 10-16-2016, 10:32 AM   #30
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The only thing you can do for that to see gains is airaid modular tube and afe drop in filter.
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Out of curiousity, what makes you feel there will be gains from the modular tube and afe filter?
Thought modular tube was just for sound by getting rid of the resonator portions on the stock tube.
And the stock intake filter was as good as any.
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Old 10-16-2016, 05:29 PM   #31
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So, are you saying if you take your Mustang to a dyno shop that 'hates' Fords and Mustangs, they can make the numbers 'lower' if they want to ?
Oh Absolutely, Dynos need constant calibration. What it typically ends up being however, is inflated "end" results to make the shop look like they did a badass job on your car.
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