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Old 09-26-2011, 03:21 PM   #1
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Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

Okay, not sure where I'm going with this/these questions (keep in mind this is for a 2012 5.0):

I'm looking into adding power and will take the next several months doing some research. But I want power in the 4000-6000 rpm range. Maybe I'm missing something but red lining the car at 6500+/7000+ rpm to see gains seems a little crazy. For example take the Boss 302 intake, the gains from what I'm reading aren't seen until you hit around 7300 rpm and the increase is only 40+ hp (give or take depending on tune, other bolt ons, etc.).

So what is the best power adder to see the hp gains in the rpm range I want? Is it the Boss 302 with/without other bolt ons, twin screw and centrifugal superchargers or just simple bolt ons?

So school me folks.

Thanks
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:29 PM   #2
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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Originally Posted by avengnd View Post
Okay, not sure where I'm going with this/these questions (keep in mind this is for a 2012 5.0):

I'm looking into adding power and will take the next several months doing some research. But I want power in the 4000-6000 rpm range. Maybe I'm missing something but red lining the car at 6500+/7000+ rpm to see gains seems a little crazy. For example take the Boss 302 intake, the gains from what I'm reading aren't seen until you hit around 7300 rpm and the increase is only 40+ hp (give or take depending on tune, other bolt ons, etc.).

So what is the best power adder to see the hp gains in the rpm range I want? Is it the Boss 302 with/without other bolt ons, twin screw and centrifugal superchargers or just simple bolt ons?

So school me folks.

Thanks
The gains with teh Boss is really form about 5000rpms up. The biggest gains come in about 6800 rpm;s when the stock manifold falls off. Also to see the Boss shine you will want other bolt ons. Also if go with a centri blower they seem to work great with the Boss intake.

Roots/Twin screw you will see instant TQ/HP gains. Centri will see bigger gains up top. 4000rpms and higher.

The best gains will be with a Turbo. Little more expensive then most blower set ups. But a lot more power and potential also.

what are your power gains? Hard to tell you a route to go if not sure what you want as in power. Be it 450whp or 700whp. Which was will be cheapest and which way will be safest etc etc.

---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------

Also the gains above 5000 rpms are about 10whp. Once you hit 6800ish it is that 30-40whp gains. Depends on what else done to car. But 40whp is actually a lot of power from a bolt on. Matted with headers, great tune you will not notice the lost down low as they will make up for any lost down low. They will also help increase the boss gains.
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:32 PM   #3
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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what are your power gains?
Thanks for the info...Anywhere from 450-500 hp. I don't want to go over 600 hp.
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:02 PM   #4
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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Thanks for the info...Anywhere from 450-500 hp. I don't want to go over 600 hp.
Easiest way would just be slap a supercharger on it. A base kit from Roush/KB/Whipple/Procharger. Really any of them.
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:19 PM   #5
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Naturally aspirated is always better I say and bolt ons will definitely get u there! But that's just my opinion. If u have the money to throw around and want ur gains now I concur with wnt2gofst. Long tube headers stainless works 1 7/8 " primaries and offroad xpipe been seeing great gains from these headers. Will give u power gains all through the rpm range. Just my suggestion.
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:43 PM   #6
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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Naturally aspirated is always better I say and bolt ons will definitely get u there! But that's just my opinion. If u have the money to throw around and want ur gains now I concur with wnt2gofst. Long tube headers stainless works 1 7/8 " primaries and offroad xpipe been seeing great gains from these headers. Will give u power gains all through the rpm range. Just my suggestion.
Don't need to spend big money on headers. They have did comparison and they all made the same HP/TQ. From the cheap BBK headers to the expensive kooks/ARH/SSW. They all was within about 1-3whp of each other. What is best is BBk is the only ones you can run with out a tune. But will shine with a tune.

Agree though. If want to do just bolt on you can do it all and reach that goal.

Cold air $300-350
LT headers w/ full exhaust(brand makes the price) $1600-2300
Boss intake $380
Dyno tune $350-500
If don't have 3.73 gears or higher $400-500(really need for the Boss)
With the right tune this can nest you around 430-460whp. All depends on the dyno really.
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:49 PM   #7
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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Easiest way would just be slap a supercharger on it. A base kit from Roush/KB/Whipple/Procharger. Really any of them.
True, but am I going to see the gains I want up front (lower rpms) with these superchargers? Am I asking too much to get the gains at the lower rpms?

I'm asking these questions because I see more folks talking about the gains at the higher rpms. I just don't see that as being beneficial. Maybe I'm just not understanding the basics. To me you want what to see the gains at the lower rpms. Wouldn't that mean quicker shift points, and faster down the 1/4 (just for an example)?
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:50 PM   #8
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A kenne bell or Roush will give you tons of gain low down.
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:52 PM   #9
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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Originally Posted by wnt2gofst View Post
Don't need to spend big money on headers. They have did comparison and they all made the same HP/TQ. From the cheap BBK headers to the expensive kooks/ARH/SSW. They all was within about 1-3whp of each other. What is best is BBk is the only ones you can run with out a tune. But will shine with a tune.

Agree though. If want to do just bolt on you can do it all and reach that goal.

Cold air $300-350
LT headers w/ full exhaust(brand makes the price) $1600-2300
Boss intake $380
Dyno tune $350-500
If don't have 3.73 gears or higher $400-500(really need for the Boss)
With the right tune this can nest you around 430-460whp. All depends on the dyno really.
You think this is better than running S/C? And where in the rpm range am I reaching that 430-460 whp. Sorry if I'm being stubborn about this.
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:59 PM   #10
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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True, but am I going to see the gains I want up front (lower rpms) with these superchargers? Am I asking too much to get the gains at the lower rpms?

I'm asking these questions because I see more folks talking about the gains at the higher rpms. I just don't see that as being beneficial. Maybe I'm just not understanding the basics. To me you want what to see the gains at the lower rpms. Wouldn't that mean quicker shift points, and faster down the 1/4 (just for an example)?
Well when racing you will actually spend most your time in the upper RPM's. And no don't mean quicker shift points. The fastest 5.0 in the country is a Centri blower car. It has a huge F1 blower.

Anyway. With a Roush/KB/Whipple you will see the gains down low and all way across the power band.

With a centri it will make more power but the boost will come on with the raise of RPM's. Also it don't suffer from heat soak like the ones above as bad.

A turbo if done right will make the most power of all them. And will build boost kinda like the Centri.

Each one has pro's and con's.

If looking to have just a solid 10 sec car with never wanting to really go beyond that slap the Roush on with an x pipe and the medium pulley call it a day. If looking to make huge power say 700whp down the road go with a Paxton/Procharger/Vortech centri or a turbo setup.

I suggest looking on Modularfords to look at the set ups and see what they all running and stuff.

---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by avengnd View Post
You think this is better than running S/C? And where in the rpm range am I reaching that 430-460 whp. Sorry if I'm being stubborn about this.
You will hit 430ish around 5000 rpms with greatest gains being around 6800+.

IT will be cheaper. Also it leaves room to grow once grow tired of that set up. You can slap a procharger on it. Make an easy 600whp+.

Go with BBK shorty headers and leave the option to slap a turbo on.
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Old 09-26-2011, 06:17 PM   #11
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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A kenne bell or Roush will give you tons of gain low down.
That's what I'm looking for.

---------- Post added at 11:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnt2gofst View Post

Anyway. With a Roush/KB/Whipple you will see the gains down low and all
way across the power band.
If that is the case, then that is what I'll go for. I say it now, I don't want more power, but what do really do witha ll that power, you know.

---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnt2gofst View Post

You will hit 430ish around 5000 rpms with greatest gains being around 6800+.

IT will be cheaper. Also it leaves room to grow once grow tired of that set up. You can slap a procharger on it. Make an easy 600whp+.

Go with BBK shorty headers and leave the option to slap a turbo on.
I like that idea, and a good approach to achieving more power.
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnt2gofst

Don't need to spend big money on headers. They have did comparison and they all made the same HP/TQ. From the cheap BBK headers to the expensive kooks/ARH/SSW. They all was within about 1-3whp of each other. What is best is BBk is the only ones you can run with out a tune. But will shine with a tune.

Agree though. If want to do just bolt on you can do it all and reach that goal.

Cold air $300-350
LT headers w/ full exhaust(brand makes the price) $1600-2300
Boss intake $380
Dyno tune $350-500
If don't have 3.73 gears or higher $400-500(really need for the Boss)
With the right tune this can nest you around 430-460whp. All depends on the dyno really.
Well the shop that's going to do my dyno tune have shown me dyno sheet that say different. For example kooks 1 3/4" primaries with o/r xpipe verses the stainless works 1 7/8" primaries with o/r xpipe the stainless works made 12 whp more. This comparison was on the same car same dyno. And the kooks cost more than the stainless works. Just info I've seen on paper though. I will find out for sure soon when all my work has been done to my car. Will be sure to post my results for everyone to see.

---------- Post added at 05:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo

Well the shop that's going to do my dyno tune have shown me dyno sheet that say different. For example kooks 1 3/4" primaries with o/r xpipe verses the stainless works 1 7/8" primaries with o/r xpipe the stainless works made 12 whp more. This comparison was on the same car same dyno. And the kooks cost more than the stainless works. Just info I've seen on paper though. I will find out for sure soon when all my work has been done to my car. Will be sure to post my results for everyone to see.
Stainless works aren't very expensive you can get LT's and o/r x pipe for 1100$ maybe cheaper if u shop around a bit.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:02 AM   #13
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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Well the shop that's going to do my dyno tune have shown me dyno sheet that say different. For example kooks 1 3/4" primaries with o/r xpipe verses the stainless works 1 7/8" primaries with o/r xpipe the stainless works made 12 whp more. This comparison was on the same car same dyno. And the kooks cost more than the stainless works. Just info I've seen on paper though. I will find out for sure soon when all my work has been done to my car. Will be sure to post my results for everyone to see.

---------- Post added at 05:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 AM ----------



Stainless works aren't very expensive you can get LT's and o/r x pipe for 1100$ maybe cheaper if u shop around a bit.
If they really made 10whp more every one would have went with them. That is a fact. I have looked at several dyno sheets. From all kinds of headers and size headers. They all made the same amount of HP. The difference in HP can be several things. dyno corrections/type or dyno/weather/tune/gears/tires/auto vs manual/4th gear pull or 5th gear pull/91 octane vs 93 octane. And so on. A car with 3.55 gears will make more whp the a car with 3.73's or even 4.10's. Doesn't mean it really has more just shows more cause the gears.


Also they had the one headers on. Dynoed it. Then took them off and put the others on. SO basically different day dyno's we know for sure. That right there is flawed testing. No car will dyno the same in different days. It can be close but you can have differences.

For example. My G8 dyno'd at 377whp with just bolt ons when first got tuned. Took it back about a month later to get a nitrous tune. Same tune as before base it did 392whp. Only thing that changed was the weather. Did the nitrous tune after that.

Several guys with 5.0 have did the same thing. Tested this this day then went back and dyno lower then before and was like what the heck.



WHat kind of dyno do they use? WHat gear do they do there pulls in?
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:52 AM   #14
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

They use a dynojet and normally pull in fourth gear

---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnt2gofst View Post
If they really made 10whp more every one would have went with them. That is a fact. I have looked at several dyno sheets. From all kinds of headers and size headers. They all made the same amount of HP. The difference in HP can be several things. dyno corrections/type or dyno/weather/tune/gears/tires/auto vs manual/4th gear pull or 5th gear pull/91 octane vs 93 octane. And so on. A car with 3.55 gears will make more whp the a car with 3.73's or even 4.10's. Doesn't mean it really has more just shows more cause the gears.


Also they had the one headers on. Dynoed it. Then took them off and put the others on. SO basically different day dyno's we know for sure. That right there is flawed testing. No car will dyno the same in different days. It can be close but you can have differences.


Well I will find out when I get all my mods done and dyno tune. My friend has all the same mods as me he just had the jack to do the work quicker. The only difference in mods are the headers and x pipe are different brands and his primaries are smaller. Will try to get his dyno sheet and post mine at the same time.

For example. My G8 dyno'd at 377whp with just bolt ons when first got tuned. Took it back about a month later to get a nitrous tune. Same tune as before base it did 392whp. Only thing that changed was the weather. Did the nitrous tune after that.

Several guys with 5.0 have did the same thing. Tested this this day then went back and dyno lower then before and was like what the heck.



WHat kind of dyno do they use? WHat gear do they do there pulls in?


---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------

Well I will find out when I get all my mods done and dyno tune. My friend has all the same mods as me he just had the jack to do the work quicker. The only difference in mods are the headers and x pipe are different brands and his primaries are smaller. Will try to get his dyno sheet and post mine at the same time.


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Old 09-27-2011, 11:56 AM   #15
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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They use a dynojet and normally pull in fourth gear

---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------

Well being they pull in 4th gear tells me they are jacked up some to begin with. The 5.0 is met to be pulled in 5th for manual cars. It is the 1:1 ratio gear. This is a big misconception most people do with it. They think that 5th and 6th are OD gears which they are not. They think they are just like all other mustangs. Which we all know is wrong. 4th gear will give lower numbers and will not be as accurate as a 5th gear pull.

---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------

Standard 6-speed manual
Gear ratios
1st 3.66
2nd 2.43
3rd 1.69
4th 1.32
5th 1.00
6th 0.65

---------- Post added at 11:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------

On a auto your 4th gear is the best.
Optional 6-speed automatic
Gear ratios
1st 4.17
2nd 2.34
3rd 1.52
4th 1.14
5th 0.87
6th 0.69
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:17 PM   #16
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Since the auto doesn't have a 1:1 gear, a forth gear pull would actually show less power? Just trying to understand this correctly.
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:19 PM   #17
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Those videos on YouTube where the Roush blower cars are running 10.8. Is that the TVS 2300 540 hp kit? That kit is only $5300. If that's the kit that's pretty impressive.
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:28 PM   #18
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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Since the auto doesn't have a 1:1 gear, a forth gear pull would actually show less power? Just trying to understand this correctly.
Yes it would show less power. But it is the closest to a 1:1 gear. The .87 you don't want to use. or 5th gear for the auto.
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:31 PM   #19
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Do u know if there is a formula or something to use for a corrected number?
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:33 PM   #20
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Those videos on YouTube where the Roush blower cars are running 10.8. Is that the TVS 2300 540 hp kit? That kit is only $5300. If that's the kit that's pretty impressive.
the $5300 kit is the tuner kit comes with no injectors or tune. you would want this..also they have all they pulley's for the roush blower.

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Old 09-27-2011, 09:27 PM   #21
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Or is it just as simple as multiplying it by 1.14?
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Old 09-28-2011, 01:36 AM   #22
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Well being they pull in 4th gear tells me they are jacked up some to begin with. The 5.0 is met to be pulled in 5th for manual cars. It is the 1:1 ratio gear. This is a big misconception most people do with it. They think that 5th and 6th are OD gears which they are not. They think they are just like all other mustangs. Which we all know is wrong. 4th gear will give lower numbers and will not be as accurate as a 5th gear pull.

---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------

Standard 6-speed manual
Gear ratios
1st 3.66
2nd 2.43
3rd 1.69
4th 1.32
5th 1.00
6th 0.65

---------- Post added at 11:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------

On a auto your 4th gear is the best.
Optional 6-speed automatic
Gear ratios
1st 4.17
2nd 2.34
3rd 1.52
4th 1.14
5th 0.87
6th 0.69
My bad they pull in 5th gear u are correct. I'm not a mechanic so I learn something new everyday. thanks man!
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Old 09-28-2011, 02:36 AM   #23
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My bad they pull in 5th gear u are correct. I'm not a mechanic so I learn something new everyday. thanks man!
It cool. There is plenty of shops that still think to pull them in 4th cause that is how the old mustangs was. I have seen it first hand.

Went to the local shop. Suppose be "The Best". I knew already not to let him touch the car for any work but just base line dyno would be fine. Anyway wanted to get my car base lined when I first got it. He was like ya we put on dyno and do it. It is 125 for two pulls. I was like wow ok. He was liek ya we have had few here already. They all put down 350-360whp stock. I said oh ok. You guys doing in 5th gear? He said nope we do in 4th. I asked why. He said well its the 1:1 ratio just like the old Fbody's and mustangs. I disagreed. He told me didn't know what I was talking about. He had other customers there and some other shop people. I pulled the info up. Showed him and busted him out. Told him guess you don't know what talking about. No wonder people say don't come here for real work besides cat back exhaust. Specially after all the PCM's you burned up. I then left. WHat was even funnier is about 3 people followed. Asked where to take there cars.


I take my car two only two shops for any kind of work. But one don't have a dyno and the other shop was slammed at the time. I should have known better.
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:06 AM   #24
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

before you put a supercharger etc on your car take the risks into account as well as the headaches.... as you WILL have them... the more you mod the more issues turn up and the less the car is worry/problem free.
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Old 09-28-2011, 10:02 AM   #25
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N/A is the way to go!!
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Old 09-28-2011, 10:55 AM   #26
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

^^ N/A is nice but I LOVE my low end tq the root blower adds
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Old 09-28-2011, 05:10 PM   #27
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Yeah some good ole low end torque is always great! But for a everyday driver full bolt on is just right for me. Maybe later on down the road a bit I may drop a s/c on her . But no time soon! Natural muscle is where the force leads me. Lol
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Old 09-28-2011, 10:41 PM   #28
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N/A is the way to go!!
Dumb question maybe buy what does N/A stand for?
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Old 09-29-2011, 12:12 AM   #29
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Dumb question maybe buy what does N/A stand for?
Stands for naturally aspirated! No power adders like superchargers or turbos. Just good ole straight motor HP! That's the route I'm going!
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Old 09-29-2011, 04:29 AM   #30
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

Here is food for thought. Just slapping blower will be cheaper in the long run. If you plan on doing cams/ported heads. Really maxing the N/A side out.

Blower/turbo $4300-$8000----550whp-800whp. That is with nothing else done. No headers, or nothing. Really easy t o gain power as just swapping pulley's or turning the boost up.


N/A all motor--Cams $1500-Full exhaust 1600-2300, Boss intake 400, Ported heads $1300, custom dyno tune $400(average)=low side 5Kish. Also will be good idea to get bigger injectors and run it on E85 or race fuel at the track.

Also once done N/A it is hard to gain power is then have to get a stroker kit, bigger cubes. As with a SC or turbo it is a matter of swapping pulley's or turning up the boost.
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:30 AM   #31
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Stands for naturally aspirated! No power adders like superchargers or turbos. Just good ole straight motor HP! That's the route I'm going!
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:12 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by wnt2gofst
Here is food for thought. Just slapping blower will be cheaper in the long run. If you plan on doing cams/ported heads. Really maxing the N/A side out.

Blower/turbo $4300-$8000----550whp-800whp. That is with nothing else done. No headers, or nothing. Really easy t o gain power as just swapping pulley's or turning the boost up.

N/A all motor--Cams $1500-Full exhaust 1600-2300, Boss intake 400, Ported heads $1300, custom dyno tune $400(average)=low side 5Kish. Also will be good idea to get bigger injectors and run it on E85 or race fuel at the track.

Also once done N/A it is hard to gain power is then have to get a stroker kit, bigger cubes. As with a SC or turbo it is a matter of swapping pulley's or turning up the boost.
Without breaking into the engine with full bolt ons and dyno tune it will only cost me 3467$ that should put me in the area of 540 on the crank and 470 to 480 to the wheels. This what the speed shop est. Me at once the work is finished. This is ball park numbers when I get dyno tuned I will see the true results and post for everyone.
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:34 PM   #33
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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Without breaking into the engine with full bolt ons and dyno tune it will only cost me 3467$ that should put me in the area of 540 on the crank and 470 to 480 to the wheels. This what the speed shop est. Me at once the work is finished. This is ball park numbers when I get dyno tuned I will see the true results and post for everyone.
Can you easily get E85 where you are?
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:30 AM   #34
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Nope
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Old 09-30-2011, 05:07 AM   #35
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Re: Power Adders; Seeking Knowledge

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Nope
That sucks. Easy way to see 20whp gains. And E85 is sold cheaper at the pump. BUrns a little faster but balances out.
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