2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barton - Mustang Evolution

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Old 12-17-2011, 03:12 PM   #1
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2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barton

Interesting watch ... if for nothing else than to stare at Jessica Barton's incredible proportions

I have to assume they didn't do any tuning with these parts since they only ended up gaining about 35HP from a CAI/LT Headers/Axlebacks and we are seeing that on a stock car with just a mail-order tune.

2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barton - YouTube
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:16 PM   #2
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Re: 2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barto

ya they didn't do no tuning on either. both should made more power
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Old 12-18-2011, 06:47 PM   #3
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I was under the impression that you HAD to tune the car if you put CAI/heads/more than axleback exhaust or it wouldnt run right?

I know there are a couple CAI that you dont need tune but other stuff i assumed would need it?
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Old 12-18-2011, 06:57 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by mgioia2
I was under the impression that you HAD to tune the car if you put CAI/heads/more than axleback exhaust or it wouldnt run right?

I know there are a couple CAI that you dont need tune but other stuff i assumed would need it?
I was told that the on board computer will actually tune themselves after about 300-400 miles. That's when they should have checked the hp.
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gster

I was told that the on board computer will actually tune themselves after about 300-400 miles. That's when they should have checked the hp.
Can you provide a reference for this? I'm pretty certain that this is not the case.
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:32 PM   #6
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Re: 2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barto

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Originally Posted by mgioia2 View Post
I was under the impression that you HAD to tune the car if you put CAI/heads/more than axleback exhaust or it wouldnt run right?

I know there are a couple CAI that you dont need tune but other stuff i assumed would need it?
WIth BBK cold air you do not need to tune. Same with there headers. Now you take chance of throwing a check engine light cause the cats are moved. Also you are leaving HP on the table not tuning for it.


As far as computer adjusting it will never adjust like a tune will. It will only add or take a few degrees of timing. It will not adjust everything like a real tune would. It will also not make the power as a tune would.
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:37 PM   #7
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Nice so there are options for us that aren't up for voiding our warranties just yet. 20hp now and possibly some more later with a tune is something to think about!
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:46 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by mgioia2
Nice so there are options for us that aren't up for voiding our warranties just yet. 20hp now and possibly some more later with a tune is something to think about!
I think that putting on full exhaust is still going to cause warranty issues.
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:55 PM   #9
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My question is what would you rather have in this battle?!...id take the torque!...
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon85

Can you provide a reference for this? I'm pretty certain that this is not the case.
I don't mean race tune themselves. These cars are tuned for optimum performance for daily driving, when you do something different to them it takes the computer awhile to adjust. It will adjust in about 300-400 miles for daily driving. When you tune it your tuning it for racing, that is why it voids the warranty.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:50 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gster

I don't mean race tune themselves. These cars are tuned for optimum performance for daily driving, when you do something different to them it takes the computer awhile to adjust. It will adjust in about 300-400 miles for daily driving. When you tune it your tuning it for racing, that is why it voids the warranty.
I've never heard that before. I also know for a fact that if you install a different sized MAF the car will not run right without an updated tune. I also know you will get a cel/mil if you install headers and/or remove the cats since the readings on the O2 sensors change. I'm unsure of the exact ramifications of this are, but I'm wanting to say that you might have afr issues if the front O2 sensors aren't reading properly.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon85

I've never heard that before. I also know for a fact that if you install a different sized MAF the car will not run right without an updated tune. I also know you will get a cel/mil if you install headers and/or remove the cats since the readings on the O2 sensors change. I'm unsure of the exact ramifications of this are, but I'm wanting to say that you might have afr issues if the front O2 sensors aren't reading properly.
It will run right if you don't go to big on the MAF. If you go to big, you need to change your fuel injectors then you have to tune it. They installed headers without a tune and it worked. If you take the cats off its not street legal so you have to tune it for racing to get it to run right. If you upgrade modestly and keep it street legal, the computer will adjust.
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Old 12-19-2011, 08:49 AM   #13
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Re: 2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barto

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It will run right if you don't go to big on the MAF. If you go to big, you need to change your fuel injectors then you have to tune it. They installed headers without a tune and it worked. If you take the cats off its not street legal so you have to tune it for racing to get it to run right. If you upgrade modestly and keep it street legal, the computer will adjust.
The headers they put on were off-road. I'm not sure what you keep saying about tuning the car "for racing." I would venture to say that any canned tune (what most people run) is much more suitable for street driving than racing.

I also have to politely disagree with you about the MAF change and the injectors. You would have to be running boost (and quite a bit of it btw) to need larger injectors and no size MAF housing is going to make that much air magically fly into the engine. I also know for a fact that a minor change in MAF housing size will cause major issue with the car (to the point it will barely start and idle), so I'm still waiting on you to explain to me how the computer tunes itself for mods.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:03 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon85

I've never heard that before. I also know for a fact that if you install a different sized MAF the car will not run right without an updated tune. I also know you will get a cel/mil if you install headers and/or remove the cats since the readings on the O2 sensors change. I'm unsure of the exact ramifications of this are, but I'm wanting to say that you might have afr issues if the front O2 sensors aren't reading properly.
The car will still run with headers and o/r x pipe without tune just Very sluggish!

---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon85
Interesting watch ... if for nothing else than to stare at Jessica Barton's incredible proportions

I have to assume they didn't do any tuning with these parts since they only ended up gaining about 35HP from a CAI/LT Headers/Axlebacks and we are seeing that on a stock car with just a mail-order tune.

2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barton - YouTube
This is crap! I made 428 whp with just CAI , Boss mani , and tune! And that's on a mustang dyno too!
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:27 AM   #15
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Re: 2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barto

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The car will still run with headers and o/r x pipe without tune just Very sluggish!
Yeah, it will run but you will have a CEL/MIL. Changing the MAF housing (aka most cold air intakes) is a different beast though.

Quote:
This is crap! I made 428 whp with just CAI , Boss mani , and tune! And that's on a mustang dyno too!
Impressive. I assume that was a CDT, not a canned tune.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon85

The headers they put on were off-road. I'm not sure what you keep saying about tuning the car "for racing." I would venture to say that any canned tune (what most people run) is much more suitable for street driving than racing.

I also have to politely disagree with you about the MAF change and the injectors. You would have to be running boost (and quite a bit of it btw) to need larger injectors and no size MAF housing is going to make that much air magically fly into the engine. I also know for a fact that a minor change in MAF housing size will cause major issue with the car (to the point it will barely start and idle), so I'm still waiting on you to explain to me how the computer tunes itself for mods.


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I'll let this speak for me. CARS 101
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:56 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon85

The headers they put on were off-road. I'm not sure what you keep saying about tuning the car "for racing." I would venture to say that any canned tune (what most people run) is much more suitable for street driving than racing.

I also have to politely disagree with you about the MAF change and the injectors. You would have to be running boost (and quite a bit of it btw) to need larger injectors and no size MAF housing is going to make that much air magically fly into the engine. I also know for a fact that a minor change in MAF housing size will cause major issue with the car (to the point it will barely start and idle), so I'm still waiting on you to explain to me how the computer tunes itself for mods.
Ya the headers worked without a tune. Why does a canned tune void warranty then? I've changed the MAF on every mustang I have owned and it ran GREAT without a tune. Granted it wasn't big enough to change the injectors. Your engine will suck a golf ball through a garden hose, the MAF housing restricts it. You put a bigger one on it lets it suck in more air, a much bigger one sucks so much more you need bigger injectors. Where do you think the term naturally aspirated means?
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:00 AM   #18
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Re: 2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barto

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Attachment 36190

I'll let this speak for me. CARS 101
I don't know that I would take that as "CARS 101" when you're talking about a modern vehicle and ECU. The information seems very old and outdated, they commonly refer to new Mustangs as "SN95s" and talk about "chips" that "racers use." Also ... the bottom of the site has this gem:

Quote:
Copyright © 1986 - 1998 MoLLER DIGITAL
While what you have said may have been true for the cars in the '90s, modern vehicles have much more advanced and sensitive ECUs that require a re-tune for mods that did not require tunes in the past.

I know you want to "win" this argument, but I have no interest in arguing with you. I simply want to make sure that the information being posted here is accurate since many people turn to sites like these to learn about modifying their cars. I don't think telling people they can install off-road exhaust parts and a CAI labeled as "tune required" due to a different sized MAF housing without a tune is a good idea. If you want to do it, have at it, but when you blow your engine due to it running lean and Ford denies your warranty claim anyways, don't be surprised.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:05 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon85

I don't know that I would take that as "CARS 101" when you're talking about a modern vehicle and ECU. The information seems very old and outdated, they commonly refer to new Mustangs as "SN95s" and talk about "chips" that "racers use." Also ... the bottom of the site has this gem:

While what you have said may have been true for the cars in the '90s, modern vehicles have much more advanced and sensitive ECUs that require a re-tune for mods that did not require tunes in the past.

I know you want to "win" this argument, but I have no interest in arguing with you. I simply want to make sure that the information being posted here is accurate since many people turn to sites like these to learn about modifying their cars. I don't think telling people they can install off-road exhaust parts and a CAI labeled as "tune required" due to a different sized MAF housing without a tune is a good idea. If you want to do it, have at it, but when you blow your engine due to it running lean and Ford denies your warranty claim anyways, don't be surprised.
I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I'm just saying if you mod moderately you don't need to tune.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:12 AM   #20
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Re: 2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barto

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I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I'm just saying if you mod moderately you don't need to tune.
Yes, you do.

If you put a CAI that changes the MAF size on a 2005+ Mustang it will barely run. This is fact not opinion. What "tune required" (aka different size MAF housing) CAI have you installed on a S197 that you have ran without a tune? I have installed multiple "tune required" CAIs on multiple S197 cars and have seen what happens when they don't have a tune and it's not pretty, specifically the C&L on my 2006 4.0 and the JLT on my 2011 5.0.

If you change the headers and/or x/h pipe to a configuration that alters the readings from the O2 sensors your engine will run lean, and that causes some very serious problems, up to and including a blown engine. If you think I'm making that up, do some research on the #8 cylinder issue. Those were caused by the car running lean and the motor was blown. Ford is investigating cases of blown engines very aggressively to determine if modifications were at fault, trust me you have just as much to lose as someone running the same mods but with a tune.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:35 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Napoleon85

Yes, you do.

If you put a CAI that changes the MAF size on a 2005+ Mustang it will barely run. This is fact not opinion. What "tune required" (aka different size MAF housing) CAI have you installed on a S197 that you have ran without a tune? I have installed multiple "tune required" CAIs on multiple S197 cars and have seen what happens when they don't have a tune and it's not pretty, specifically the C&L on my 2006 4.0 and the JLT on my 2011 5.0.

If you change the headers and/or x/h pipe to a configuration that alters the readings from the O2 sensors your engine will run lean, and that causes some very serious problems, up to and including a blown engine. If you think I'm making that up, do some research on the #8 cylinder issue. Those were caused by the car running lean and the motor was blown. Ford is investigating cases of blown engines very aggressively to determine if modifications were at fault, trust me you have just as much to lose as someone running the same mods but with a tune.
#8 cylinder is a tune problem. Your telling me you took off the 86mm and put on a 90mm and it blew. These computers are so sophisticated they will tell you if they are running lean or rich. I'm not trying to argue with you, but you have to give these computers more credit. They will tell you when something is wrong.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:38 AM   #22
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Re: 2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barto

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#8 cylinder is a tune problem. Your telling me you took off the 86mm and put on a 90mm and it blew. These computers are so sophisticated they will tell you if they are running lean or rich. I'm not trying to argue with you, but you have to give these computers more credit. They will tell you when something is wrong.
Yes, they certainly will! They will not "tune themselves" however. A CAI won't blow your engine, it just won't run well if at all. I separated those two mods/problems into two paragraphs for a reason. If you think you can drive around running lean on a coyote motor, go ahead and do it. I'm sure Ford will thank you when you have to give them $8k for a new engine.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:48 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Napoleon85

Yes, they certainly will! They will not "tune themselves" however. A CAI won't blow your engine, it just won't run well if at all. I separated those two mods/problems into two paragraphs for a reason. If you think you can drive around running lean on a coyote motor, go ahead and do it. I'm sure Ford will thank you when you have to give them $8k for a new engine.
Okay tune was a bad word to use, but when the computer adjust itself and it will with small to moderate mods, what other word can I use. That's why they sell mods with no tune required. Since your the forum police, no ones running lean.
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:16 PM   #24
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Re: 2011 5.0L Mustang vs 5th Gen Camaro - BBK Horsepower Challenge with Jessica Barto

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Okay tune was a bad word to use, but when the computer adjust itself and it will with small to moderate mods, what other word can I use. That's why they sell mods with no tune required. Since your the forum police, no ones running lean.
The only "no tune required" mods on the new 5.0 are axlebacks and a handfull of CAIs that get little-to-no gains.
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:17 PM   #25
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How much gain did they get in the video on this thread?
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:49 PM   #26
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How much gain did they get in the video on this thread?
The gains were crappy. I think they used a cai that does not require a tune and the gains are mostly from larger TB installed. As far as the headers and xpipe the cars will adjust somewhat but nowhere near what a tuned car will. I can post my dyno sheet with cai, boss mani, and steeda tune and I put down a whole 20+whp more than those cars!
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:51 PM   #27
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The gains were crappy. I think they used a cai that does not require a tune and the gains are mostly from larger TB installed. As far as the headers and xpipe the cars will adjust somewhat but nowhere near what a tuned car will. I can post my dyno sheet with cai, boss mani, and steeda tune and I put down a whole 20+whp more than those cars!


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Old 12-19-2011, 12:54 PM   #28
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The gains were crappy. I think they used a cai that does not require a tune and the gains are mostly from larger TB installed. As far as the headers and xpipe the cars will adjust somewhat but nowhere near what a tuned car will. I can post my dyno sheet with cai, boss mani, and steeda tune and I put down a whole 20+whp more than those cars!
We all know a tune will give it more horsepower. Just saying you can mod without hurting your warranty. Granted you don't get the better hp until you tune, but you keep your warranty as long as you dont go overboard with mods.

---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:52 PM ----------

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Sweet!! 428 that's awesome!
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:58 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Gster

We all know a tune will give it more horsepower. Just saying you can mod without hurting your warranty. Granted you don't get the better hp until you tune, but you keep your warranty as long as you dont go overboard with mods.

---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:52 PM ----------



Sweet!! 428 that's awesome!
Thanks! I have installed headers and o/r x pipe since then will dyno again when I get my CDT. That's a mustang dyno to not a dyno jet .
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:26 PM   #30
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Thanks! I have installed headers and o/r x pipe since then will dyno again when I get my CDT. That's a mustang dyno to not a dyno jet .
Cool! What are you expecting?
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:58 AM   #31
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Cool! What are you expecting?
I'm expecting about 470+ whp after the CDT right now I'm running a steeda race tune.
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:35 AM   #32
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I'm expecting about 470+ whp after the CDT right now I'm running a steeda race tune.
Nice! Your going to be a blue blur.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:46 AM   #33
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There is so much miss information in this thread it's sad.

Also on most dyno's full bolt mustangs actually make 430-450whp. I know I made 464whp my self. But I don't let it get to my head. Why cause on the same dyno my buddy made the same. He then went to a Dynojet and made 435whp. And most people use dynojets. He did it to show how different two dyno's can be.

Benzo as I said before you made great power. But seemed high for a mustang dyno. The real truth is run it at the track. A true 470whp mustang has ran in the 10s. It also had head work to make that 470 besides full bolt ons.

---------- Post added at 05:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 AM ----------

Everyone needs to remember a dyno is just a tool used for tuning. It can also be manipulated to say whatever. A guy comes in and says ya I should make xxx for power I could make it say that. As above the real test is what you run at the track. Specially in the trap speed.
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:48 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnt2gofst
There is so much miss information in this thread it's sad.

Also on most dyno's full bolt mustangs actually make 430-450whp. I know I made 464whp my self. But I don't let it get to my head. Why cause on the same dyno my buddy made the same. He then went to a Dynojet and made 435whp. And most people use dynojets. He did it to show how different two dyno's can be.

Benzo as I said before you made great power. But seemed high for a mustang dyno. The real truth is run it at the track. A true 470whp mustang has ran in the 10s. It also had head work to make that 470 besides full bolt ons.

---------- Post added at 05:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 AM ----------

Everyone needs to remember a dyno is just a tool used for tuning. It can also be manipulated to say whatever. A guy comes in and says ya I should make xxx for power I could make it say that. As above the real test is what you run at the track. Specially in the trap speed.
There is one more element here and I'm not taking up for anybody, but these new mustangs stock are dynoing all over the place. Maybe it's like you said they can make say whatever they want.
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Old 12-20-2011, 07:55 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnt2gofst
There is so much miss information in this thread it's sad.

Also on most dyno's full bolt mustangs actually make 430-450whp. I know I made 464whp my self. But I don't let it get to my head. Why cause on the same dyno my buddy made the same. He then went to a Dynojet and made 435whp. And most people use dynojets. He did it to show how different two dyno's can be.

Benzo as I said before you made great power. But seemed high for a mustang dyno. The real truth is run it at the track. A true 470whp mustang has ran in the 10s. It also had head work to make that 470 besides full bolt ons.

---------- Post added at 05:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 AM ----------

Everyone needs to remember a dyno is just a tool used for tuning. It can also be manipulated to say whatever. A guy comes in and says ya I should make xxx for power I could make it say that. As above the real test is what you run at the track. Specially in the trap speed.
+1. One of the best indicators of power is trap speed. Dynos can be variable, but as you said, they are tools for tuning. I think Dynos are good for indicating change in HP with mods, but nothing beats a good old timeslip.
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