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Old 01-07-2012, 03:01 PM   #1
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Panhard Problem

Question

When I went to install the adjustable panhard yesterday, the package they had sent had 2 right hand thread end links so it made it unusable.... should I wait until I get the new Panhard before an alignment? or will it really matter?

American Muscle hooked it up too... I love those guys, I called them to complain and they had a shipping confirmation in my email for a new one before I hung up.
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:04 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by M3to5.0
Question

When I went to install the adjustable panhard yesterday, the package they had sent had 2 right hand thread end links so it made it unusable.... should I wait until I get the new Panhard before an alignment? or will it really matter?

American Muscle hooked it up too... I love those guys, I called them to complain and they had a shipping confirmation in my email for a new one before I hung up.
I would wait. That way your rear end is centered
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:09 PM   #3
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Re: Panhard Problem

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I would wait. That way your rear end is centered
Kinda thought that... but I wasn't sure
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:27 PM   #4
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Re: Panhard Problem

The control arms centre the rear end, not the panhard. Yep, the stock panhard can push the rear end off centre if you lower the car but, as long as the control arms are hooked up, you could drive the car without the panhard without issue.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:01 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by 5LHO
The control arms centre the rear end, not the panhard. Yep, the stock panhard can push the rear end off centre if you lower the car but, as long as the control arms are hooked up, you could drive the car without the panhard without issue.
The control arms center front to back in wheel well. The pan hard bar centers it right to left thank you.

And you can drive it now with stock. But would be stupid to pay for alignment till the rear end is centered
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:19 PM   #6
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Re: Panhard Problem

Panhard minimises lateral movement of the rear end under cornering forces. That's what the are designed to do, not "centre the rear end".

What did cars do that lacked panhard bars, like the old 5.0, a Fairlane? Somehow the rear end stayed somewhat centred on those cars.
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:51 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by 5LHO
Panhard minimises lateral movement of the rear end under cornering forces. That's what the are designed to do, not "centre the rear end".

What did cars do that lacked panhard bars, like the old 5.0, a Fairlane? Somehow the rear end stayed somewhat centred on those cars.
They also center the rear end. Hey think you vet them adjustable. To be able to center it after lowering. Don't believe you might want to do some research. Call bmr , upr , spohn.

http://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=p...id=21&catid=68
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:02 AM   #8
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Re: Panhard Problem

Don't need to, man, I've been building and racing cars for almost 30 years. I know what a panhard bar does and is. The primary prupose of a panhard bar is to prevent deflection of a live axle rear under cornering forces. This deflection promotes snap oversteer and other troublesome conditions.

You could say, I suppose, that it's job is to "locate" the rear end but, the panhard shouldn't be wrenching the rear end into alignment. The rear should already be located by the arrangement of the suspension components and the panhard is there to prevent it moving off that location laterally. The panhard has to be very carefully located, with as little angularity as possible, because, when the suspension compresses, if there's too much angularity in the mounting, it can actually deflect the rear end off line, which isn't useful either.

Think about it. If the S197 didn't have a panhard bar and, you lowered the car, you'd still be in alignment, laterally, at the rear. You need an adjustable one because you've changed the distance between the mount point on the body and the axle mount, not because your rear's moved out of alignment.

Now, of course, lowering a car changes the angles of the other suspension arms but, that's an issue with pinion angle and fore-aft alignment not side to side.

This is a lively forum. Most of the other Mustang boards seem pretty dead to me. Like it.
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:03 PM   #9
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Re: Panhard Problem

LOL Fast test. Lower the mustang take off the stock panhard bar car centered, lower the car with the stock panhard bar car uncentered. Proves the point...
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:19 PM   #10
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Re: Panhard Problem

Eibach Springs - PRO-ALIGNMENT Panhard Bar

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After the installation of either an Eibach PRO-KIT, SPORTLINE spring kit or PRO-STREET, R1, R2 coil-over kit in a Ford Mustang, Eibach recommend the installation of the Eibach Pro-Alignment Panhard Bar. The Eibach Panhard Bar eliminates the unstable and unpredictable behavior during cornering caused by the Rear Axle becoming un-centered after the vehicle is lowered.
Just throwing this our there... Eibach typically knows what they're talking about.
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:33 PM   #11
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Re: Panhard Problem

Panhard Bar or Panhard Rod

There is also a "double" bar that locates the rear end. (Can't remember the name. )
It pivots off of a special HD rear end cover with a shaft mounted in the middle.
That configuration allows for more vertical movement without pulling the rear end to one side or the other.

A third type used on drag cars is of a wishbone configuration.
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:40 PM   #12
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Re: Panhard Problem

Burn...
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:10 PM   #13
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Re: Panhard Problem

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Originally Posted by Trojan Horse View Post
Panhard Bar or Panhard Rod

There is also a "double" bar that locates the rear end. (Can't remember the name. )
It pivots off of a special HD rear end cover with a shaft mounted in the middle.
That configuration allows for more vertical movement without pulling the rear end to one side or the other.

A third type used on drag cars is of a wishbone configuration.


That's a watts link and is superior to a PH bar in every way.

There seems to be a somewhat common misunderstanding here suggesting that I said, "You don't need an adjustable PH bar when you lower the car." I NEVER said that. I said that the PH bar should not be used for "adjusting" the rear end's position, laterally. You need the adjustment because you changed the distance between the pickup points when you lowered the car.

It is not surprising the rear end goes out of alignment laterally when you lower with the stock bar. You would be prying the rear outboard with a now longer lever, due to the drop.

Lower the car WITHOUT the bar in place. Make sure you check to see if the rear end is actually aligned laterally before lowering. If all's well, the car will drop without moving the axle laterally in that condition. Then slap your adjustable bar on there and set it up for the new, shorter distance.

All that being said, does anyone actually believe that on a rubber bushed street car, they can detect the implications for handling of a 1/2 inch deflection of the rear end laterally? I've seen many factory live axle cars with the rear end deflected by up to an inch, from the factory, without any concern being raised by manufacturers. These are stamped-out, mass-production cars and tolerances stack up sometimes.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:48 PM   #14
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Re: Panhard Problem

I noticed a 1/2 inch when I lowered my car with the 10" wide rims one them. Many others here have noticed there cars rear end was off center when they lowered their cars as well. One guy noticed his was off like 1/4". Specially when the tires rub on one side when you launch and not the other side.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:01 PM   #15
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Re: Panhard Problem

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Originally Posted by 5LHO View Post
That's a watts link and is superior to a PH bar in every way.

There seems to be a somewhat common misunderstanding here suggesting that I said, "You don't need an adjustable PH bar when you lower the car." I NEVER said that. I said that the PH bar should not be used for "adjusting" the rear end's position, laterally. You need the adjustment because you changed the distance between the pickup points when you lowered the car.

It is not surprising the rear end goes out of alignment laterally when you lower with the stock bar. You would be prying the rear outboard with a now longer lever, due to the drop.

Lower the car WITHOUT the bar in place. Make sure you check to see if the rear end is actually aligned laterally before lowering. If all's well, the car will drop without moving the axle laterally in that condition. Then slap your adjustable bar on there and set it up for the new, shorter distance.

All that being said, does anyone actually believe that on a rubber bushed street car, they can detect the implications for handling of a 1/2 inch deflection of the rear end laterally? I've seen many factory live axle cars with the rear end deflected by up to an inch, from the factory, without any concern being raised by manufacturers. These are stamped-out, mass-production cars and tolerances stack up sometimes.

That's it! Thanks I couldn't remember for the life of me what it was called.
Telling my age here, but back in the day I owned a 1967 Galaxie 500 XL identical to the one in the picture.
It had a panhard bar on it.
I added some air shocks of course because that's what we did back then.
I quickly found out that if you lifted the back of the car a few inches with the air shocks it pulled the rear end drastically sideways 2" or more.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:04 PM   #16
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Re: Panhard Problem

So lifting lowering it moved the rear end side to side 2"...hmm adjustable panhard will help that issue. Even if it is centered before lowering it.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:05 PM   #17
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Re: Panhard Problem

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Originally Posted by wnt2gofst View Post
I noticed a 1/2 inch when I lowered my car with the 10" wide rims one them. Many others here have noticed there cars rear end was off center when they lowered their cars as well. One guy noticed his was off like 1/4". Specially when the tires rub on one side when you launch and not the other side.
From my experience that's quite believable.
Especially with the wide rims and minimal clearance most of us are running.
I think Maximum Motorsports or one of the other suspension companies has come up with a way to alleviate that problem. I'll have to see if I can find it again.

Here they are - Maximum Motorsports Panhard Bars

MM Panhard Bar Tech
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:07 PM   #18
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Re: Panhard Problem

Also I run solid spherical ends in my car. Screw bushings. They break. I know I broke a set on my manual car with 6000rpm+ launches.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:14 PM   #19
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Re: Panhard Problem

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So lifting lowering it moved the rear end side to side 2"...hmm adjustable panhard will help that issue. Even if it is centered before lowering it.
Just a guesstimate at this point as that was a long time ago, but it was a lot.
It pushed one rear tire out flush with the fender.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:20 PM   #20
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Re: Panhard Problem

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Also I run solid spherical ends in my car. Screw bushings. They break. I know I broke a set on my manual car with 6000rpm+ launches.
That's believable. My cousin had a 600+ cubic inch, 1400+ HP, nitrous sniffing drag car that broke some 3/4" spherical rod ends when it hooked hard.
Heavy car, high HP, 14" wide slicks = carnage!
He had to go to the hardened solid rod ends to get them to hold.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:27 PM   #21
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Re: Panhard Problem

So back to the question... I made an appointment on Wednesday for an alignment... Panhard is not and will not be here by then, do I follow through with the appt? Or do I wait until panhard?
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by M3to5.0
So back to the question... I made an appointment on Wednesday for an alignment... Panhard is not and will not be here by then, do I follow through with the appt? Or do I wait until panhard?
From what I'm reading here I'd say to wait man.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:34 PM   #23
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Re: Panhard Problem

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So back to the question... I made an appointment on Wednesday for an alignment... Panhard is not and will not be here by then, do I follow through with the appt? Or do I wait until panhard?
Sorry about that.
If you are doing a 4 wheel alignment I would wait.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:41 PM   #24
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Re: Panhard Problem

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Sorry about that.
If you are doing a 4 wheel alignment I would wait.

And with lowering and new LCA's.... a 4 wheel should be on the agenda... correct?
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:48 PM   #25
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Re: Panhard Problem

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And with lowering and new LCA's.... a 4 wheel should be on the agenda... correct?
Yes it should.
Making sure all 4 wheels are tracking straight will make the car drive and handle much better. (If in fact it's out much to begin with.)
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:02 AM   #26
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Re: Panhard Problem

Usually the only implication of side to side misalignment is tire rub on one side, if wheels are wide.

As long as the car's wheels are all in line with the thrust line of the car then other implications are slight, other than that.

It's still best to centre the rear before putting the panhard bar on. On many cars, I've had to tweak subframes, loosen suspension bolts and lever the rear around, etc. to get it as centred as possible, laterally and fore/aft. This is tricky in the carport but with some careful measuring, stringlining and levelling of the surface, it's possible.

Using an adjustable panhard to pull or push the rear centred puts a binding load on the panhard and the suspension bushings. If this is bad enough, this can very well have handling implications, due to the stiction and weird changes to the suspension arm's arcs.

If a car's rear is moving under laterally under normal vertical motion, something else is wrong and should be addressed. Using a PH bar to centre it would make it right at that position and cause problems elsewhere.

I'd definitely wait til I had every part on and installed right before I went in for an alignement.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:23 AM   #27
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Re: Panhard Problem

Thanks for all the advice.......... Is there any negative implications with driving it "as is" for a while until I get a new Panhard installed? There is no rubbing and I really do not feel like there is much out of alignment if there is any at all. The tires do not looked toe'd
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:26 AM   #28
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Re: Panhard Problem

If the tires are not toe'd or no rubbing really no issue with driving it. It may just pull a little if the alignment is off.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:47 AM   #29
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Re: Panhard Problem

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If the tires are not toe'd or no rubbing really no issue with driving it. It may just pull a little if the alignment is off.
Agreed.
I'd hazard a guess that a large percentage of the vehicles on the roads are out of whack a bit and their owners never even notice or worry about it.
It's only us gearheads who get concerned over things like this because we want everything 100% up to snuff on our rides.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:56 AM   #30
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Re: Panhard Problem

Like I said before, as long as the rear wheels are in line with the thrust line of the car, you can run it around.

With a stick axle, if you're misaligned fore-aft, cross-ways, i.e. off the thrust line, you'll get one wheel toed out and one in and you'll definitely notice that. It'll corner better on the toed out side and resist turn in on the toed in side. Plus it'll dog track on the freeway, which'll feel really wierd.

Worst example I had of this was a spool equipped '74 Trans Am with a 400 GTO Ram Air III in it. THat sucker had been in a few arguments and when I put the spool in it revealed how tweaked the whole rear uinbody was. It wanted to put its back wheels in the other lane driving down a straight highway. I tried to wrestle it back but there was only so much I could do. Eventually I just put Detroit Locker in it and that was allright to drive normally.
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