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Old 08-10-2013, 07:22 PM   #1
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BAMA tune target AFR

Hey I just installed the JLT intake along with a BAMA 93R tune, car feels pretty good but I was wondering about target AFRS, I seem to be lingering in the low to upper 11s at WOT, I feel this is a bit too rich for our motors? I double checked everything and im pretty sure i have no leaks or anything.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:29 PM   #2
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Yeah, that's a bit heavy for a PI motor. I would expect and want, 12.5 to 12.7 range, to feel i was getting the most out of it safely. That still leaves you a bit of headroom for really high density days or super summer heat soak.

If it was direct injection or I was trying to tamp down det like on an iron 403 Olds I might fatten it up more than that but no way in the 11s, ever on PI with a dohc variable cam head.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:37 PM   #3
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I have no problem logging for BAMA I just dont know how to..dont understand this SCT stuff lol..im used to opensource tuning on subarus and evos lol, have no idea what pids to chose or anything
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Old 08-10-2013, 08:41 PM   #4
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I have no problem logging for BAMA I just dont know how to..dont understand this SCT stuff lol..im used to opensource tuning on subarus and evos lol, have no idea what pids to chose or anything
I was the same way, just give bama a call and they will turn you into a pro with all the helpful info and guidance.
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Old 08-10-2013, 10:28 PM   #5
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think i figured it out..wasnt too bad when i used livewire vs the actual sct device, here is a data log if anyone cares to look, there are 3 runs, i believe the first 2 are 3rd and the last is a 4th gear pull, ive deleted all the cruise data (jesus that took long) the runs are separated by a line space
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l2xn4k75na6mfwo/datalog1.csv

I used lamda 14.7 for the bank 1 and 2 off of the 02 sensors
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:19 PM   #6
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Ok, no such thing as "lambda 14.7" !4.7 is the ideal stoichiometric AFR ratio, meaning an theoretical absolute perfect burn of all available fuel, on gasoline only. Great for mileage, lousy for performance. The advantage to using lambda values for tuning is they don't care what kind of fuel you use, they are just a relationship to the ideal perfect burn.

Tuning with AFR is actually an interpretation of lambda values by the cars ECU or fuel management device. The O2s don't measure AFR, they are lambda sensors and the device or programming translates that info in AFR for you.

You would, if you were looking for performance on gasoline with a low percentage of alcohol, be looking for about .85 lambda.

Lambda is awesome because it actually tells you whether there was more oxygen than fuel or vice versa, and by how much, in your recorded event...theoretically. It becomes much muddier in the real world.
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:27 PM   #7
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I never knew lamda was preferred, ive always gone off of AFR readings, anyhow this is what i meant its a selection from a drop down menu

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Old 08-11-2013, 08:31 AM   #8
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Gotcha. Well, in AFR terms, I'd still be aiming at what I said before. It'd be interesting to track the ST fuel trim as that would tell you what adjustments were being made. It's very hard to read your attachments.

If you have a way of tracking actual v. targeted afr, that'd help also, in figuring out how off the tune is.

I don't use SCT so, I'm not as helpful as I might be in other circumstances.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:22 PM   #9
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I use the SCT Livewire TS on my 11' 5.0 and I had my car on the dyno and my AFR was 12.7 at WOT. I am running bama's 93 octane race tune, and when I spoke to them they told me that they tune conservatively, that they don't want any chance of lean condition, that way their tunes aren't blowing peoples motors. Remember they are generic tunes written for your mod combination.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:29 PM   #10
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yeah being in the 12s is where id assume its supposed to be, granted I am using the AFR reading on the multi function display as i have a 13, not sure of the accuracy of that but that shows me being in the low to mid 11s at WOT, ill just wait for monday and shoot them a data log
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:15 AM   #11
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Yeah, the multi-function display is notorious for being off on AFR, sometimes as much as a full point. You can use you SCT tuner to log this and send them that data.

mid 12s is conservative for tuning a PI aluminum engine and poses no risk.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s1975OH View Post
think i figured it out..wasnt too bad when i used livewire vs the actual sct device, here is a data log if anyone cares to look, there are 3 runs, i believe the first 2 are 3rd and the last is a 4th gear pull, ive deleted all the cruise data (jesus that took long) the runs are separated by a line space
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l2xn4k75na6mfwo/datalog1.csv

I used lamda 14.7 for the bank 1 and 2 off of the 02 sensors
s1975OH,

The Bama Team should be able to straighten things out once you send in your datalog. Although, keep in mind that these coyote 5.0's do like a richer air/fuel than the typical N/A v8. We've been the solid gains with 12.0-12.2 AFR too!

Let me know if you have any trouble getting in touch with the Bama Team and I'll get things moved along. However, I don't anticipate any issues! They can be reached @ 888.257.1770!

Shane
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Old 08-13-2013, 06:21 AM   #13
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This is there idea of a SAFE tune. Mine run about the same. They more than likely wont change it. They just run timing in more or screw with the torque management. Mine runs about 11.4-11.6 at WOT. My car stock on a dyno jet would go 11.8 at WOT. I wouldn't worrie about it to much. Just think of it as a safety net just incase they jack something up in the tune. I had a few tunes that made my car ping at high rpms. I believe if the tune didn't have the car running at 11.6 a/f I believe bad things would have heppened. If you want a better tune you will need to fork out some $$ for a tune from AED or someone of that caliber or a dyno tune. Bama's tunes are good SAFE/BASE maps and that is it! THEY ARE FREE.
One other thing. How are you getting this a/f figure? Do you have a wide band and gauge in place? I wouldn't trust the stock premium gauge. I've seen these be up to 2.0 points off
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:10 AM   #14
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There's safe and then there's leaving the dinner on the table. Mid-11s AFR is ridiculous on an N/A motor as efficient as this one. No harm done but totally unnecessary.

Stock for me would hover around 12.5. The canatune-a Procal is about the same, maybe a hair leaner, at best. The car rips with that. I'm weighing in at about 3765 race with 1/2 tank of fuel, which means the wimpy 91 street tune and this motor are pushing out around 438 fw horses to get it done, with no other supporting mods. I really ain't so keen on going custom at this point, for obvious reasons.

This engine straight-up pings off the timing curve. Ford makes a bunch of smoke and mirrors statements but, it's my opinion it's straight up spark knock most of the time. Throwing a ton of fuel at that won't always alleviate it. I draw this conclusion because, according to my datalogs, the Procal adds a lot of timing and it's mildly sensitive to fuel choice.
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2012 Premium GT, Candy Red, Brembo package, 3.73, MT82, Comfort, Tech, et al. Procal tune, Roush UCA, UMI poly LCA, GT500s, Steeda red bracket, Hoosier 28x10x16 bias drags. Best e/t 11.91 at 115.23 RIP
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:23 PM   #15
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There's safe and then there's leaving the dinner on the table. Mid-11s AFR is ridiculous on an N/A motor as efficient as this one. No harm done but totally unnecessary.

Stock for me would hover around 12.5. The canatune-a Procal is about the same, maybe a hair leaner, at best. The car rips with that. I'm weighing in at about 3765 race with 1/2 tank of fuel, which means the wimpy 91 street tune and this motor are pushing out around 438 fw horses to get it done, with no other supporting mods. I really ain't so keen on going custom at this point, for obvious reasons.

This engine straight-up pings off the timing curve. Ford makes a bunch of smoke and mirrors statements but, it's my opinion it's straight up spark knock most of the time. Throwing a ton of fuel at that won't always alleviate it. I draw this conclusion because, according to my datalogs, the Procal adds a lot of timing and it's mildly sensitive to fuel choice.
I totally agree, I know too much fuel can also cause knock ( well atleast in turbocharged applications), they sent me a revision saying 5% leaner and pulled some timing out but my AFR according to the display was around 11.8, I get some people argue that the oem display is good and some dont, so for arguments state my lamda figures were around .82-.84 from my data log...

On another note, when I did logging of my own I had zero knock under WOT, strange enough when I went to log for BAMA there was count on the sensor at WOT, I am also noticing there is alot of negative activity under normal driving, ive seen as high as 6, the sensor seems to be always going off under any kind of acceleration, even with their revised map im still getting activity,Im pretty sure i put gas after I did my initial log and I am wondering if ive got a batch of bad gas, also could some one care to explain why under partial throttle the knock reads negative and under WOT its positive?
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:39 PM   #16
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P/T knock activity is perfectly normal and just indicating the computer is doing its job tweaking the engine management for maximum efficiency. This thing runs closed loop all the time so, one should expect a litle touch of activity here and there. A little P/T knock is also not damaging to the engine at all.
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2012 Premium GT, Candy Red, Brembo package, 3.73, MT82, Comfort, Tech, et al. Procal tune, Roush UCA, UMI poly LCA, GT500s, Steeda red bracket, Hoosier 28x10x16 bias drags. Best e/t 11.91 at 115.23 RIP
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:00 PM   #17
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P/T knock activity is perfectly normal and just indicating the computer is doing its job tweaking the engine management for maximum efficiency. This thing runs closed loop all the time so, one should expect a litle touch of activity here and there. A little P/T knock is also not damaging to the engine at all.
So a positive value under WOT is okay? but a negative value is indicating pulling timing due to knock?
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:28 AM   #18
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I don't know how your datalogger does the KR (knock ******). Remember that when measuring KR, the value is the timing being pulled. Measuring absolute timing, the values can go either way.

Focus on the fact that, if you are seeing timing pulled under WOT conditions consistently, a tweak to the timing curve is warranted, or at least higher octane fuel is demanded. 0 values show no knock ****** and that means you can tweak the timing up some more, until it starts registering some WOT KR.

Alles klar, Herr Kommissar?
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2012 Premium GT, Candy Red, Brembo package, 3.73, MT82, Comfort, Tech, et al. Procal tune, Roush UCA, UMI poly LCA, GT500s, Steeda red bracket, Hoosier 28x10x16 bias drags. Best e/t 11.91 at 115.23 RIP
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