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Old 11-23-2014, 06:33 AM   #1
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Stock Brembo brakes faded while racing

For the first time I went with my '11 5.0 (with the Brembo pkg) to the track, it was a DE event from my local PCA (this is done in a local airport). My Strano's adjustable sway bars were set front middle and rear soft. The car behaved very good without the TC. At first I had 35 psi on all my 275/40R19 Michelin Pilot SS, after hot laps we had to let go some psi (it reached about 40 psi hot) down to 39 psi front & 38 psi back, because it began to lose traction, and then after it, it really improved. At the end of the day, I went solo VS a BMW M3 (V8) with a experienced driver with mods in his suspension, he ended his time at .59 secs. and I was behind at .60 secs, after several hot laps behind him, I had to leave the track because my brakes faded severely.

My instructor recommended the following:
-To set the front bar softer (he did not like the feeling of the steering while testing my car).
-Align my car.
-Flush the brakes
-Change the front brake pads

I also had the opportunity in a long stretch to try the top speed of my car, I reach 145 MPH (like mentioned on several magazines), the car was OK, just felt strong wind noise, and I could see some movement on the hood. After I reached that speed, I did not felt that the limit was because it was set to that top speed by the manufacturer, but instead it was limited by the Mustang's limited aerodynamics.

Guys based on your experience:
-Which front brake pads do you recommend for Street & occasional track time, that will not fade (without too much noise from them)?
-Do you think I should use synthetic brake fluid?
-Any alignment that you could recommend for Street & Track (I have Sam Strano's adjustable sway bars, KONI STRT's shocks, STEEDA sport springs, GT500 shock mounts, 275/40R19 Michelin Super Sport tires mounted on the stock Brembo handling pkg. wheels).
-Which PSI do you recommend for the track?
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Old 11-23-2014, 08:08 AM   #2
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Hey Hunter! We talked a good while back about wheels and tires setups I think??(another forum) maybe this one I can't keep up.

On your alignment what works well for the street vs track is always a trade off. Before you get to crazy how did your tires wear? You may not need to adjust. For a aggressive street setup with a good amount of track use you could go -2 on the camber, get as much caster as you can, and toe in a 1mm for starters. You can obviously get more aggressive but, tire wear will suffer on the street.

Brake pads are the same trade off. Maybe just get some great track pads and switch out for track days? Look into some upgraded rotors front and upgrade the rear to the larger rotors. Vorschlag has some good info on brakes and road course setup. Flush the brake fluid and get the good stuff. Jay

And psi just depends on what you are feeling. Something that will change with conditions, vehicle setup, what tire etc. You will have to play with it. Go out for a couple laps adjust as necessary. Keep a log of adjustments so you start to get a clear idea what works for your unique setup.
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Old 11-23-2014, 08:17 AM   #3
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Thanks for the advice BigJay.
Do you have any idea if the Mustang Boss brake pads could provide any benefit?
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:40 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by M3hunter View Post
Thanks for the advice BigJay.
Do you have any idea if the Mustang Boss brake pads could provide any benefit?
If you are looking for a better pad look at carbotech options. Here Carbotech Front Pads for S197 w/ OEM 14" Brembos - Vorshlag LLC

The pads that come in our brembos are not really for track use. I like to take things in stages to get by with as little $$$ as possible. Look over Vorshlag's site it will point you to best solution for your needs. I know some Boss guy that runs carbotech xp12 in front and xp10 rear. Good results, low noise hear and there more so in reverse. Most of them pull the stock pads for track use so I would guess the Boss pads might be about the same for fade. So many options on pads it's like what motor oil to use!
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Old 11-23-2014, 01:56 PM   #5
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Im running Hawk hps pads all around for DD and love them but at the track I change the front pads to hawk HP+. It only takes 5 minutes to change the pads on the Brembos. Im running stock brembo rotors and there still good and balanced even after several track sessions. Go with a good dot 4 brake fluid and also add braided brake lines

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Old 11-23-2014, 07:10 PM   #6
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I have boss 302 brake lines, ate amber fluid, and hawk hps pads, and after 4 20 min sessions hard on the roadcourse, they held up perfect.
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Old 11-23-2014, 07:18 PM   #7
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DOT 4 brake fluid and better ceramic pads will eliminate fade. If they are heating up too much (most likely won't in these types of courses) then you will want drilled and slotted rotors. SS Brake lines will firm up the pedal also.
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Old 11-24-2014, 08:28 AM   #8
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You most likely just boiled the fluid. (due to either stock stuff not being up to your driving capabilities OR it being old and having moisture in it)

So first and foremost, flush brake lines and get some Motul 600 or 660 whatever.

This happened to me once (in my old car), had to drain & change fluid at track. We put some Motul 660 in & didn't have any other issues. Old fluid can have some moisture in it and boil faster. If your fluid is more than a year old very likely that was more the issue than the rating. But going up a few notches from the stock stuff will help.

While you're changing the fluid & are going to be draining & flushing the lines anyway, I'd install some stainless steel braided lines at the same time.

Better fluid is really probably all you need, but changing the lines will help firm up that pedal too.
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Old 11-28-2014, 06:02 AM   #9
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Thanks Guys! for sure I will purge and change to a synthetic brake fluid, improved pads: Ferodo, Carbotech or Hawk, if you could find a good ones that will serve street & occasional track without too much noise. And also maybe look to improve the ventilation on the front brakes by using some type of ducts.
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Old 12-06-2014, 01:20 AM   #10
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I have hawk pads on my tow rig and mustang and they are very good. Check out frozen rotors to if your interested in rotors. They are cryogenicly frozen and are guaranteed to never warp.
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:01 PM   #11
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Thanks Guys! for sure I will purge and change to a synthetic brake fluid, improved pads: Ferodo, Carbotech or Hawk, if you could find a good ones that will serve street & occasional track without too much noise. And also maybe look to improve the ventilation on the front brakes by using some type of ducts.
All glycol ether based brake fluid is synthetic. Dot 3,4, and 5.1 fluids are glycol ether based. If it says synthetic on the bottle its there for marketing reasons. Please remember this before you go walking around pit lane talking about "synthetic" brake fluid. There are several good choices for brake fluid. Honestly, any good Dot 4 fluid would be fine in your application. The trick is to flush the fluid before every track day as brake fluid is hygroscopic and the boiling point will lower over time...and will lower more quickly if heated to extremes on a regular basis.

Prestone Dot 4 brake fluid from any auto parts store has a dry boiling point over 500 degrees. There are fluids with higher boiling points, but for your situation they are probably not necessary. If you start running some true race compound brake pads with R comps or slicks, then we can talk about caliper temperatures and brake fluid temperatures.

If you are experiencing brake fade after changing the pads and fluid, then you'll need to invest in brake cooling ducts. The Boss LS had them from the factory. Vorshlag has a good amount of information and product support for brake ducts. Give them a call or email if you'd like to learn more. They actually have a great deal of experience tracking their 5.0 and have learned numerous lessons. Their blog is a good read.


Most importantly though, HAVE FUN!
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:30 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by M3hunter View Post

Guys based on your experience:
-Which front brake pads do you recommend for Street & occasional track time, that will not fade (without too much noise from them)?
-Do you think I should use synthetic brake fluid?
-Any alignment that you could recommend for Street & Track (I have Sam Strano's adjustable sway bars, KONI STRT's shocks, STEEDA sport springs, GT500 shock mounts, 275/40R19 Michelin Super Sport tires mounted on the stock Brembo handling pkg. wheels).
-Which PSI do you recommend for the track?

First, lets define "Fade." Did you push the pedal and it sunk to the floor, or you pushed the pedal and it was firm but the car wasnt stopping?

If the pedal went to the floor, thats an indicator you need better brake fluid, and/or some means of ducting, cooling to keep the temps down. I run the Vorshlag ducting kit and backing plates on my '13 5.0 and will routinely stop from 140+ at the local track with little to no fade. I'm also using amsoil DOT4 with these.
Ford S197 Brakes - High Performance and Racing Parts - Vorshlag LLC

If the pedal was firm but you werent stopping, you glazed the pads. I cooked the **** out of the stock pads at the same track listed above with no ducting ... actually melted two spots in the back of the pads where the pistons were making contact, wish i still had the pictures lol. Now i run Carbotech XP-10s at the track and they'll rip your face off the car stops so hard, and they handle heat much better. They dust like hell and are squeaky though, so not recommended for the street. I bit the bullet and just have a spare set of pads and rotors that are for racing, that way i don't run the risk of ruining my street car i need for work monday morning.

I just run factory alignment for now, i havent gotten too adventurous with that yet, but i typically try to target ~1 psi for every 100 lbs of car weight. I'll start my runs at around 30-31 psi and target 36-38 psi hot from the tires.


* Mind you, this is all on the 13.2" Standard GT Brakes.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:36 PM   #13
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When the brakes failed, pedal went all the way to the floor, and the car almost had no brakes, until it cool down, afterward I was able to drive home, under inspection car did not had more pad left about 3mm, still is braking, but pedal feel soft, brake fluid probably also boiled.
I already ordered improved brake pads and dot 4 brake fluid.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:49 PM   #14
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Yea that sounds like pads and fluid. Which pads did you decide to go with? I personally use Hawk HPS, good all around pad for performance and daily driving. They work pretty well on the street, but i haven't had a chance to really push them yet.
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:10 PM   #15
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:48 PM   #16
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This weekend I will install my new Hawk HPS brake pads & ATE's DOT 4 brake fluid, and lets see how it behaves on street & track.
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:50 AM   #17
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I have a 13' premium with the brembos... they're shockingly "standard" feeling to me........ ......... ............................................ ........................................ My 99 vette with worn out brake pads stopped just as well lol
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:25 AM   #18
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I think a lot of people misunderstand that the Brembos offer virtually no stopping power advantage over the standard brakes ...

You're using the exact same hydraulic system as the standard GT, so you cant expect more clamping force, the only benefits of the Brembos are associated with road racing. The larger rotors allow more heat retention, and more pistons just means better pad wear since the pressure is being applied more evenly.
Your 99 vette was also probably 500-700 lbs lighter than your premium GT, so take that into consideration as well. The stock pads are also meant to be a "one size fits all," that will "work" on the track, but for all practical purposes its still a street pad.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:15 AM   #19
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I think a lot of people misunderstand that the Brembos offer virtually no stopping power advantage over the standard brakes ...

You're using the exact same hydraulic system as the standard GT, so you cant expect more clamping force, the only benefits of the Brembos are associated with road racing. The larger rotors allow more heat retention, and more pistons just means better pad wear since the pressure is being applied more evenly.
Your 99 vette was also probably 500-700 lbs lighter than your premium GT, so take that into consideration as well. The stock pads are also meant to be a "one size fits all," that will "work" on the track, but for all practical purposes its still a street pad.
aaaah ok that makes sense. They sure look bigger ad stronger than other brakes, appearances can be deceiving a guess.....
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:53 AM   #20
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What about installing this? Ford GT500 Mustang Power Brake Booster DR3Z-2005-B (09-14 All) - Free Shipping

If you track your car just put in the Motul 660 stuff and change it at least once a year. Its a relatively cheap "fix".
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:57 AM   #21
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Interesting, i've never seen that before. I'll have to do some research on it.
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Old 12-10-2014, 10:40 AM   #22
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Interesting, i've never seen that before. I'll have to do some research on it.
When I had my Cayman, people were doing a similar upgrade for their cars. Basically all of the Porsche sport cars use mostly interchangeable parts.

So they found the OEM supplier's part # and were upgrading to the 911 GT3's brake master cylinder for a much firmer pedal.
Ex: Porsche 911 Carrera GT3 Turbo Brake Master Cylinder TRW 99735591030 | eBay

Keep in mind Porsche parts are expensive, so the Porsche part is like $400-500. So you're using the brake master cylinder from a $130k+ track focused version of the 911 on your 80-100k+ Porsche "street" car. (caymans, boxsters & other 911's)
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Old 12-10-2014, 11:01 AM   #23
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Change to a set of Hawk Pads HPS if more street and HT if more race. Change your fluid to DOT4 or synthetic. Switch out to SS braided lines too. These will help and you will have less fade for sure.
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