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Old 09-07-2015, 08:47 PM   #36
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I hear you. I would avoid them if it were my car. I noticed that you are in Mass. Check out our fall cruise thread. It is going to be a good one!


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Old 09-07-2015, 08:52 PM   #37
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I'm not sure how you hit these on a speed bump?
My car with J&M Brackets:
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Old 09-07-2015, 08:57 PM   #38
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Here's my car with BMR brackets:
How are you hitting these on a speed bump?
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Old 09-07-2015, 08:58 PM   #39
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You MIGHT be dragging the control arm, but the bracket can not hit a speed bump.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:03 PM   #40
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are relocation brackets necessary

Really dude? 3 pics? I just explained it to you. It's when the car is at an extreme angle, and half the rear tire is on, and half of it is off this tall speed bump? You really this dense or are you being a jack *** for the sake of being one?


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---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabman View Post
You MIGHT be dragging the control arm, but the bracket can not hit a speed bump.

I'm not dragging the LCA's lol. There's paint chipped clearly off of the bottom of the Brackets...


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---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------

Man this thread really got derailed by my supposed fabrications aye? Let's let it go now...lol.


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Old 09-07-2015, 09:04 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2014oxstang View Post
Really dude? 3 pics? I just explained it to you. It's when the car is at an extreme angle, and half the rear tire is on, and half of it is off this tall speed bump? You really this dense or are you being a jack *** for the sake of being one?


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---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------




I'm not dragging the LCA's lol. There's paint chipped clearly off of the bottom of the LCA's...


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You clearly are doing something no one else on the planet can possibly do. I commend you. And the multiple picture was to help you understand, a mission on which I have clearly failed.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:05 PM   #42
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You clearly are doing something no one else on the planet can possibly do. I commend you. And the multiple picture was to help you understand, a mission on which I have clearly failed.

---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------





You clearly are doing something no one else on the planet can possibly do. I commend you. And the multiple picture was to help you understand, a mission on which I have clearly failed.

Or, maybe you just have yet to experience a speed-bump of this magnitude?


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Old 09-07-2015, 09:07 PM   #43
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I am not here to dispute anyone's comments.....just to express my thoughts and experiences from building drag only and road race only cars.
I personally don't want anything hanging below the "scrub line" and if you take your car to a track even somewhere that has above average tech inspectors they will not let you on the track......anything hanging below the scrub line is just not allowed......being a licensed SCCA tech and having to sign your name on the log book is not something I take lightly..............of course I am referring to race cars and not street cars.
I've always look at roll steer as a function of the front suspension and not really something to worry about on a live axle car. In roll steer one wheel usually one wheel falls and the other rises which I always equated to "toe in" or one wheel and "toe out" of the other....very similar to "bump steer" except in bump steer both wheels raise together.
When talking about roll center everyone must remember that a car has 2 roll centers, one for the front suspension and one for the rear and that on live axle cars when the car is lowered it's most likely going to change the front roll center more than the rear...the front roll center will now be lower than the rear and this will cause understeer into and through the corners and oversteer out of the corners.
My formula for setting up hot rods and cars that see track time is that the front roll center should be 1/2 to 2/3 of the rear roll center.......and at least for tracking the car .........if it isn't then you can compensate with adjustable front or rear sway bars, watts linkage, panhard bar...........or a combination of these.
Also, when you talk about wheel hop.....it is caused by the wheel moving forward spinning....catching traction and moving back.....and continuing this process many times a second........and yes using relo brackets will help this...just like pre-loading the LCA's and changing the pinion angle.....IMHO
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:07 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2014oxstang View Post
Or, maybe you just have yet to experience a speed-bump of this magnitude?


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Let me introduce you to my little friend physics.
The bracket moves up with the wheel.....it is direct line with the wheel. It is impossible to hit this on any size speed bump at any angle....you sir and mistaken.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:11 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by olerodder View Post
I am not here to dispute anyone's comments.....just to express my thoughts and experiences from building drag only and road race only cars.
I personally don't want anything hanging below the "scrub line" and if you take your car to a track even somewhere that has above average tech inspectors they will not let you on the track......anything hanging below the scrub line is just not allowed......being a licensed SCCA tech and having to sign your name on the log book is not something I take lightly..............of course I am referring to race cars and not street cars.
I've always look at roll steer as a function of the front suspension and not really something to worry about on a live axle car. In roll steer one wheel usually one wheel falls and the other rises which I always equated to "toe in" or one wheel and "toe out" of the other....very similar to "bump steer" except in bump steer both wheels raise together.
When talking about roll center everyone must remember that a car has 2 roll centers, one for the front suspension and one for the rear and that on live axle cars when the car is lowered it's most likely going to change the front roll center more than the rear...the front roll center will now be lower than the rear and this will cause understeer into and through the corners and oversteer out of the corners.
My formula for setting up hot rods and cars that see track time is that the front roll center should be 1/2 to 2/3 of the rear roll center.......and at least for tracking the car .........if it isn't then you can compensate with adjustable front or rear sway bars, watts linkage, panhard bar...........or a combination of these.
Also, when you talk about wheel hop.....it is caused by the wheel moving forward spinning....catching traction and moving back.....and continuing this process many times a second........and yes using relo brackets will help this...just like pre-loading the LCA's and changing the pinion angle.....IMHO
I'm not talking about roll centers, I'm talking about roll steer which absolutely happens at the rear of a live axle. You can have either roll under steer, roll over steer or neutral steer.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:13 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabman View Post
I'm not sure how you hit these on a speed bump?
My car with J&M Brackets:
I have to say that this is the first time I've seen the picture of your relo bracket.
Ok, I stand corrected on being below the "scrub line"............the other relo brackets that were shown hang down substantially further than yours and are below the scrub line (below the wheel)
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:14 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by olerodder View Post
I have to say that this is the first time I've seen the picture of your relo bracket.
Ok, I stand corrected on being below the "scrub line"............the other relo brackets that were shown hang down substantially further than yours and are below the scrub line (below the wheel)
I included pics of both of the most popular brackets so that captain speed bump could see what I was talking about. Neither one is below the wheel or could POSSIBLY be hit on a speed bump.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:19 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Fabman View Post
I included pics of both of the most popular brackets so that captain speed bump could see what I was talking about. Neither one is below the wheel or could POSSIBLY be hit on a speed bump.

Lol, you win the internet tonight bud I'll just pretend I didn't scrape them.


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Old 09-07-2015, 09:20 PM   #49
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Lol, you win the internet tonight bud I'll just pretend I didn't scrape them.


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believe what you want...those who know WTF is going on laugh at you.

---------- Post added at 09:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 PM ----------

Article on roll steer:
Stock Car Roll Steer - The Effects of Rear Axle Movement - Stock Car Racing Magazine
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:25 PM   #50
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Here we go:


Optimizing Weight Transfer and Roll Steer
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:25 PM   #51
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are relocation brackets necessary

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Originally Posted by Fabman View Post
believe what you want...those who know WTF is going on laugh at you.

---------- Post added at 09:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 PM ----------

Article on roll steer:
Stock Car Roll Steer - The Effects of Rear Axle Movement - Stock Car Racing Magazine

They're going to laugh on me? Ok dude, like I said, you win. Lol stop getting yourself all riled up.

And I will believe what I want, I was the one driving the car lol.

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Old 09-07-2015, 09:26 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Fabman View Post
I'm not talking about roll centers, I'm talking about roll steer which absolutely happens at the rear of a live axle. You can have either roll under steer, roll over steer or neutral steer.
Ok, I guess I'm not fully understanding roll steer then, I always thought roll steer was where one wheel raises and one falls causing toe in on the wheel raising and toe out on the wheel falling....and toeing out will give understeer like toe in will give oversteer.
Looking at my 14 Mustang, the rear end from the factory already has -0.20 degrees toe on the left and +0.20 on the right. Right now under hard cornering the car is pretty much neutral...................taking corners in excess of 100/120.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:28 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Grabber Blue5.0 View Post
I would get them. As stated you will need to correct the geometry of your LCA.
I see the pic you were talking about....this is because they are using a 15" wheel. On an 18, 19 or 20" wheel it is above the scrub line. My second picture is this same bracket with an 18" wheel.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:31 PM   #54
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They're going to laugh on me? Ok dude, like I said, you win. Lol stop getting yourself all riled up.

And I will believe what I want, I was the one driving the car lol.

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It just irks me when someone who clearly has no freaking idea whats going on insists, especially when I have explained, and provided pictures so obvious that a monkey can understand and you just want to be a twit. You should be listening here instead of talking. I happen to be an expert on the subject and you are wasting the opportunity to learn something.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:32 PM   #55
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I see the pic you were talking about....this is because they are using a 15" wheel. On an 18, 19 or 20" wheel it is above the scrub line. My second picture is this same bracket with an 18" wheel.
Ok, I didn't equate the 15" wheel. Since most guys running Mustangs in SCCA are running 18" whees and tires I have never seen any brackets below the scrub line.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:37 PM   #56
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They're going to laugh on me? Ok dude, like I said, you win. Lol stop getting yourself all riled up.

And I will believe what I want, I was the one driving the car lol.

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What you have, is a theory, which has been disproven.
You may be scraping something, but it's not the bracket. IT CAN NOT HAPPEN.
You just THINK it is....my God some people.....
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:39 PM   #57
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It just irks me when someone who clearly has no freaking idea whats going on insists, especially when I have explained, and provided pictures so obvious that a monkey can understand and you just want to be a twit. You should be listening here instead of talking. I happen to be an expert on the subject and you are wasting the opportunity to learn something.

Yep, no idea what's going on...I was like Stevie Wonder driving my car and I just want to be a twit....get it out bud, get it all out!!! Did you have a bad Labor Day today? Did you have to work? Whatever it is, I'm sorry that you're so angry. Thank you for your knowledgable information. I must be mistaken, maybe it was someone else, my bad....lol.


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---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabman View Post
What you have, is a theory, which has been disproven.

You may be scraping something, but it's not the bracket. IT CAN NOT HAPPEN.

You just THINK it is....my God some people.....

Lol, ooooooook. You done?


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Old 09-07-2015, 09:42 PM   #58
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Yep, no idea what's going on...I was like Stevie Wonder driving my car and I just want to be a twit....get it out bud, get it all out!!! Did you have a bad Labor Day today? Did you have to work? Whatever it is, I'm sorry that you're so angry. Thank you for your knowledgable information. I must be mistaken, maybe it was someone else, my bad....lol.


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---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 PM ----------




Lol, ooooooook. You done?


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This is like trying to tell a 2 year old not to eat crayons.
You sir are simply not qualified to be in this conversation, but that doesn't stop you from shooting your mouth off does it.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:45 PM   #59
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are relocation brackets necessary

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This is like trying to tell a 2 year old not to eat crayons.

You sir are simply not qualified to be in this conversation, but that doesn't stop you from shooting your mouth off does it.

Lawlz...

You have some serious pent up aggression you have to release my friend. Maybe get off the internet and try to get laid? Just a suggestion, don't take my head off...

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Old 09-07-2015, 09:45 PM   #60
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He had so much angle on the speed bump he was actually straddling it. Here's a bad exaggeration.
Click image for larger version

Name:	Clipboard01.jpg
Views:	88
Size:	3.4 KB
ID:	190824
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:47 PM   #61
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He had so much angle on the speed bump he was actually straddling it. Here's a bad exaggeration.

Attachment 190824

That's honestly what happened lol, except I didn't straddle it (have serious weight on it) just a slight scrape. It's a mathematical impossibility though. A good friend told me, so I'm leaving it at that.


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Old 09-07-2015, 09:48 PM   #62
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He had so much angle on the speed bump he was actually straddling it. Here's a bad exaggeration.
Attachment 190824
Then he's not going over the speedbump, he's straddling an obstacle.
That is not the same statement. And that doesn't explain how any angle relates.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:49 PM   #63
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That's honestly what happened lol, except I didn't straddle it (have serious weight on it) just a slight scrape. It's a mathematical impossibility though. A good friend told me, so I'm leaving it at that.


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Well I did say it was an exaggeration. But proof is in the pudding.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:49 PM   #64
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That's honestly what happened lol, except I didn't straddle it (have serious weight on it) just a slight scrape. It's a mathematical impossibility though. A good friend told me, so I'm leaving it at that.


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That's the smartest thing you've said all night.

Maybe you CAN learn...?
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:52 PM   #65
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That's the smartest thing you've said all night.



Maybe you CAN learn...?

I'll take your advice, if you get off the computer and take mine...k? :*


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Old 09-07-2015, 09:52 PM   #66
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I'll leave you with this picture. There is NO WAY you can hit this on a speed bump.
This thread has gone beyond trying to understand, this is nothing more that circle jerk.

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Old 09-07-2015, 09:53 PM   #67
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Then he's not going over the speedbump, he's straddling an obstacle.
That is not the same statement. And that doesn't explain how any angle relates.
I'm saying he could go over it at say a 15 degree angle. Such that when the tire if past the hump, what's close to the tire is on the hump.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:54 PM   #68
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]I'll leave you with this picture. There is NO WAY you can hit this on a speed bump.
This thread has gone beyond trying to understand, this has become nothing more that circle jerk.




I suggest y'all look at it until it sinks in.
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:58 PM   #69
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are relocation brackets necessary

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I'm saying he could go over it at say a 15 degree angle. Such that when the tire if past the hump, what's close to the tire is on the hump.

Diehard, it's ok man. I appreciate the support, but it clearly didn't happen because fabman was actually underneath the car at the time I scraped. He assured me that everything was ok and it was all in my head. All half dozen times I did it.


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Old 09-07-2015, 10:00 PM   #70
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Now look at the sway bar mounts BEHIND the relo brackets.....see the scraping there?
Thats most likely what he hears.



---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2014oxstang View Post
Diehard, it's ok man. I appreciate the support, but it clearly didn't happen because fabman was actually underneath the car at the time I scraped. He assured me that everything was ok and it was all in my head. All half dozen times I did it.


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No, it's because Fabman knows what he is talking about and you don't.
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