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Old 03-12-2016, 01:30 PM   #1
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Double clutch?

I've been driving stick for almost 25 years and I've never even heard of double clutching. Someone recently told me it's something one is supposed to do less you ruin your synchros and wear out other parts. I've yet to experience these problems in any manual car I've owned.

What say you?

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Old 03-12-2016, 01:56 PM   #2
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Double clutching is only needed when your transmission is non-synchromesh........so basically, not since the 60's.
It has to do with bringing the next gear selected up to speed so they don't grind when you shift --- not needed in a synchromesh transmission, which does exactly that for you.
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Old 03-12-2016, 02:02 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Guard 5.0 View Post
Double clutching is only needed when your transmission is non-synchromesh........so basically, not since the 60's.
It has to do with bringing the next gear selected up to speed so they don't grind when you shift --- not needed in a synchromesh transmission, which does exactly that for you.
Probably early 60s. My 65 Mustang has a 4 speed syncromesh transmission. If I remember correctly the 3 speed transmission in that car might not have had a syncro on 1st gear but I'm not sure about that. No need to double clutch our transmissions for sure.
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Old 03-12-2016, 02:22 PM   #4
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I am curious who told you this? It seems odd that someone would be still telling anyone something like this about the newer cars.....
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Old 03-12-2016, 02:39 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Brewcityf6b View Post
I've been driving stick for almost 25 years and I've never even heard of double clutching. Someone recently told me it's something one is supposed to do less you ruin your synchros and wear out other parts. I've yet to experience these problems in any manual car I've owned.

What say you?

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Originally Posted by Guard 5.0 View Post
I am curious who told you this? It seems odd that someone would be still telling anyone something like this about the newer cars.....
Probably someone who recently saw a "Fast and Furious" where they threw stuff in but didn't know what they were talking about:

"you lost because you were granny shifting and not double clutching like you should be"

"NAWSSS you'll blow the welds on your intake"
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Old 03-12-2016, 02:47 PM   #6
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Probably someone who recently saw a "Fast and Furious" where they threw stuff in but didn't know what they were talking about:

"you lost because you were granny shifting and not double clutching like you should be"

"NAWSSS you'll blow the welds on your intake"
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Old 03-12-2016, 03:20 PM   #7
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It's the sound you hear during the chase seen in Bullitt. Interestingly enough, a quick Google search produced the following:

"As for the Mustang, the car used for chase scenes was reportedly a GT fastback equipped with a 390-cu.in. V-8, while a few 289-cu.in. Mustangs were dressed to look like the 390-powered version and used for other scenes. The GT’s four-speed gearbox wouldn’t have required the double-clutching heard during the chase, but the producers opted to use an engine soundtrack from a Ford GT40 for a more dramatic effect. As for the stunt driving, McQueen piloted the car for all but a few scenes about 10-percent of the scenes, with friend and Hollywood stuntman Bud Ekins taking the wheel for the early part of filming, followed by Loren Janes for the rest of production. The Charger R/T was driven entirely by stuntman Bill Hickman, who also played the role of Phil, the killer’s main minion."


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Old 03-12-2016, 03:27 PM   #8
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Double clutching is a downshifting technique that promotes smoother transitions and lower transmission wear. It is useful for road racing, prolonging transmission life, and giving you an overall smoother ride.

In normal driving, with modern cars- you don't need to double clutch... ever. When you shift, these neat little devices called "synchronizers" or "synchromesh" (or whatever other name you want to give them) in your transmission help your shifting by matching the rotational speeds between meshing parts. Why do you need to match the speeds between transmission parts when you shift? Simple- they won't go together unless they're all traveling the exact same speed. Your synchros take care of this, so you don't have to worry about matching revs much in normal driving.

So the question now is... why the heck do you need to double clutch? It's useful in racing, it's required for non-synchro transmissions, and it's just a damn cool racing skill to master. Think of your transmission as being separated into two functional halves. One half is connected to your engine, and the other half is connected to your drive axles/wheels. The split between the two halves is right at your gears.

Let's say you're driving down the street in 5th gear. Assume that your gearing is 1:1 all the way though, just for simplicity's sake. Your engine is turning 3000rpm, and so are all the parts in your transmission. You want to downshift to get higher up in your powerband to pass someone, so you mash the clutch pedal, shift to 4th gear, then lift off the clutch pedal. If your 4th gear ratio is twice what your 5th is, your engine is now spinning at 6000rpm (along with the "engine half" of the transmission) while the "driveshaft half" of your transmission is still spinning at 3000rpm. Your car is still moving at the same speed, but you're higher up in your engine's powerband. Now you have more power to pass the person in front of you.

What normally happens when you downshift and don't match revs? You feel the car lurch some while the transmission forces the engine to a higher rev level. The synchros grip against each other to match the gear speeds, the gears mesh, and when your clutch grips- it pushes the engine higher... and you feel the rough transition. To smooth this out, you can raise the rev level of your engine and the "engine half" of the transmission so the synchros have less work to do, and so your transmission isn't pushing the engine around.



Shamelessly copied and pasted from*http://hondaswap.com/general-tech-ar...lutching-3515/



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Old 03-12-2016, 06:51 PM   #9
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Probably early 60s. My 65 Mustang has a 4 speed syncromesh transmission. If I remember correctly the 3 speed transmission in that car might not have had a syncro on 1st gear but I'm not sure about that. No need to double clutch our transmissions for sure.
I had a '49 manual chevy. No double clutching required. I have a feeling only trucks and maybe tractors and such had to double clutch after early 40's.
I'll ask my 89 yr old brother. He'll remember.
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Old 03-12-2016, 07:43 PM   #10
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I learned to drive on a Chevy truck with an unsynchronized 4 speed, so double clutching is still ingrained in my driving skills, at least to some degree. As others have pointed out, it is totally unnecessary on modern cars. However, I still tend to double clutch while downshifting, since it makes the shift into the lower gear easier and automatically has the engine rev-matched for a smoother downshift. Upshifting, I rarely double clutch, with the exception of doing a skip-shift where the engine has to drop considerable RPM... again, it just makes for a smoother shift. Does it save wear on the synchros? Sure, a little bit. Is that offset by some extra wear of the clutch engaging and releasing? Sure, a little bit. Am I worried about either one? Not a bit! I'm not racing or in competition, I'm just out enjoying the drive. If I can make a smoother shift by doing a double-clutch, then I do. If you want to learn to double clutch... great! If you don't... great! But don't let it worry you one way or another.
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Old 03-12-2016, 09:40 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Guard 5.0 View Post
I am curious who told you this? It seems odd that someone would be still telling anyone something like this about the newer cars.....
Probably some old broken geezer of a truck driver, like myself, told him that. I miss those old days of two sticks and double clutching. Fact is, it was easier to shift those with no clutch and just engine RPM's. With a little practice, they would feel like they were falling into gear on their own once you got it down.
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Old 03-13-2016, 11:11 AM   #12
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Thanks for the info. That's what I figured. Like I said, I've been driving manual for almost 25 years and have only had to replace one clutch and zero synchros in that time. Two of the cars had week over 100k

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Old 03-13-2016, 12:29 PM   #13
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I had a '49 manual chevy. No double clutching required. I have a feeling only trucks and maybe tractors and such had to double clutch after early 40's.
I'll ask my 89 yr old brother. He'll remember.
Just spoke with my brother. He had a fair number of cars from the 30's and 40's and never had one that required double clutching. He also drove many trucks that did.
Different topic but interesting...He mentioned a car(couldn't remember the make) that was designed to help people drive a manual. It was equipped with a button that when depressed allowed the clutch to rise(engage) at a predetermined speed when you took your foot off of it.
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Old 03-13-2016, 12:43 PM   #14
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Of course nowadays there are many car companies that have incorporated electronically assisted rev matching features into their high-performance manual cars.
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Old 03-13-2016, 06:39 PM   #15
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I do it occasionally for smoother shifting probably minimal effect on syncros but I don't know, I think everyone gets from FF movies
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Old 03-13-2016, 07:28 PM   #16
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Just spoke with my brother. He had a fair number of cars from the 30's and 40's and never had one that required double clutching. He also drove many trucks that did.
Different topic but interesting...He mentioned a car(couldn't remember the make) that was designed to help people drive a manual. It was equipped with a button that when depressed allowed the clutch to rise(engage) at a predetermined speed when you took your foot off of it.
DeSoto was one of the manufacturer's that had a clutch that was touted as a hill holder. You could pull up to a stop, put in first, go ahead and release clutch with foot on brake, no throttle, then take off when ready by simply pressing on accelerator. Packard was another that had a "hill holder". The DeSoto I was describing could be used as a manual 3 speed or when once you started by leaving it in 3rd could be used as an automatic. The 30's and 40's were very innovating years for car companies. Lots of competition. So accessories and creature comforts and Things to make the car so anybody could drive were a big deal!
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Old 03-13-2016, 09:03 PM   #17
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DeSoto was one of the manufacturer's that had a clutch that was touted as a hill holder. You could pull up to a stop, put in first, go ahead and release clutch with foot on brake, no throttle, then take off when ready by simply pressing on accelerator. Packard was another that had a "hill holder". The DeSoto I was describing could be used as a manual 3 speed or when once you started by leaving it in 3rd could be used as an automatic. The 30's and 40's were very innovating years for car companies. Lots of competition. So accessories and creature comforts and Things to make the car so anybody could drive were a big deal!
I never drove one but I do remember the Fluid Drives.
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Old 03-13-2016, 10:31 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by straybullitt View Post
Double clutching is a downshifting technique that promotes smoother transitions and lower transmission wear. It is useful for road racing, prolonging transmission life, and giving you an overall smoother ride.

In normal driving, with modern cars- you don't need to double clutch... ever. When you shift, these neat little devices called "synchronizers" or "synchromesh" (or whatever other name you want to give them) in your transmission help your shifting by matching the rotational speeds between meshing parts. Why do you need to match the speeds between transmission parts when you shift? Simple- they won't go together unless they're all traveling the exact same speed. Your synchros take care of this, so you don't have to worry about matching revs much in normal driving.

So the question now is... why the heck do you need to double clutch? It's useful in racing, it's required for non-synchro transmissions, and it's just a damn cool racing skill to master. Think of your transmission as being separated into two functional halves. One half is connected to your engine, and the other half is connected to your drive axles/wheels. The split between the two halves is right at your gears.

Let's say you're driving down the street in 5th gear. Assume that your gearing is 1:1 all the way though, just for simplicity's sake. Your engine is turning 3000rpm, and so are all the parts in your transmission. You want to downshift to get higher up in your powerband to pass someone, so you mash the clutch pedal, shift to 4th gear, then lift off the clutch pedal. If your 4th gear ratio is twice what your 5th is, your engine is now spinning at 6000rpm (along with the "engine half" of the transmission) while the "driveshaft half" of your transmission is still spinning at 3000rpm. Your car is still moving at the same speed, but you're higher up in your engine's powerband. Now you have more power to pass the person in front of you.

What normally happens when you downshift and don't match revs? You feel the car lurch some while the transmission forces the engine to a higher rev level. The synchros grip against each other to match the gear speeds, the gears mesh, and when your clutch grips- it pushes the engine higher... and you feel the rough transition. To smooth this out, you can raise the rev level of your engine and the "engine half" of the transmission so the synchros have less work to do, and so your transmission isn't pushing the engine around.



Shamelessly copied and pasted from*What is double clutching? | HondaSwap



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That is not double clutching. That is simply rev matching on a downshift. Which is a good thing to learn to do.

Double clutching is where you push the clutch in to remove the car from a gear, then using the clutch again to put the car into the next gear (generally by rev matching). This can work for either up-shifting or down-shifting.

Basically, if the vehicle has synchros, it's not needed. If it is an older vehicle without synchros or a car with bad synchros, double clutching may need to be done on both upshifts and downshifts.

Here is a scene from the movie Bullitt, at 1:14, 1:20 and 1:36, those are double clutch upshifts.



So when the shifting happens in this car, he pushes in the clutch, revs fall to far, he blips the throttle to the appropriate RPM and goes into the next gear. It sounds cool but again, isn't really needed on a newer car. Also, notice that the Challenger doesn't do it.
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Old 03-13-2016, 11:48 PM   #19
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That is not double clutching. That is simply rev matching on a downshift. Which is a good thing to learn to do.



Double clutching is where you push the clutch in to remove the car from a gear, then using the clutch again to put the car into the next gear (generally by rev matching). This can work for either up-shifting or down-shifting.



Basically, if the vehicle has synchros, it's not needed. If it is an older vehicle without synchros or a car with bad synchros, double clutching may need to be done on both upshifts and downshifts.



Here is a scene from the movie Bullitt, at 1:14, 1:20 and 1:36, those are double clutch upshifts.







So when the shifting happens in this car, he pushes in the clutch, revs fall to far, he blips the throttle to the appropriate RPM and goes into the next gear. It sounds cool but again, isn't really needed on a newer car. Also, notice that the Challenger doesn't do it.

Charger, not Challenger. Also, I mentioned earlier that it sounds from reading like they used a soundtrack from a GT40 for the Mustang, so we really might not even be hearing the actual car in the movie?


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Old 03-14-2016, 12:40 AM   #20
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Charger, not Challenger. Also, I mentioned earlier that it sounds from reading like they used a soundtrack from a GT40 for the Mustang, so we really might not even be hearing the actual car in the movie?


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Ya, Charger .. not sure what I was thinking. I have also read they used a GT40 soundtrack. However, if you have ever heard what proper double clutching sounds like, what you hear sounds exactly like that.
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Old 03-14-2016, 01:08 AM   #21
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Ya, Charger .. not sure what I was thinking. I have also read they used a GT40 soundtrack. However, if you have ever heard what proper double clutching sounds like, what you hear sounds exactly like that.

Agreed.


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Old 03-14-2016, 01:36 AM   #22
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That is not double clutching. That is simply rev matching on a downshift. Which is a good thing to learn to do.

Double clutching is where you push the clutch in to remove the car from a gear, then using the clutch again to put the car into the next gear (generally by rev matching). This can work for either up-shifting or down-shifting.

Basically, if the vehicle has synchros, it's not needed. If it is an older vehicle without synchros or a car with bad synchros, double clutching may need to be done on both upshifts and downshifts.

Here is a scene from the movie Bullitt, at 1:14, 1:20 and 1:36, those are double clutch upshifts.



So when the shifting happens in this car, he pushes in the clutch, revs fall to far, he blips the throttle to the appropriate RPM and goes into the next gear. It sounds cool but again, isn't really needed on a newer car. Also, notice that the Challenger doesn't do it.
When I originally copied that article, it had detailed instructions on how to double clutch, but when I pasted it, that paragraph was all jumbled up and didn't make any sense, so I deleted that part.
I was hoping that nobody would notice.
Damn you Ish.

That video clip was about 3 minutes of a 18-20 minutes chase scene. If I remember correctly, there was an in-car shot of Steve McQueen double clutching that Mustang. Regardless, it was Steve McQueen for god sakes... the dude double clutches! He was a badass! Haha
And did you see how effective that it was for him? He ran down that 440 Charger, with a GT 390, after spinning out, and making sure that the motorcycle rider was alright, in less than 60 seconds!
Try THAT with a modern car!
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Old 03-14-2016, 02:29 AM   #23
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He ran down that 440 Charger, with a GT 390, after spinning out, and making sure that the motorcycle rider was alright, in less than 60 seconds!
Try THAT with a modern car!
Haha.


Didn't they have to detune the Charger? I know they put the skinniest tires on it possible but I thought they changed out the carb to choke it down a little or something.


Either way, that chase scene is excellent and everyone should watch it as it is one of the best ever filmed. Also, the car on fire in the explosion at the end, is a Camaro..

I still personally think the original Gone in 60 Seconds (Elenor was a 71 Mach 1) had the best chase scene ever. That chase scene was also nearly half the movie and the story behind how they did it is even better. They didn't have permits for everything, actual public reactions (even running over to help people in "accidents" not knowing it was a movie stunt), not everyone knew what was going on, the police were actually police and not all of them knew it was for a movie, etc..
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Old 03-14-2016, 03:47 AM   #24
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Haha.


Didn't they have to detune the Charger? I know they put the skinniest tires on it possible but I thought they changed out the carb to choke it down a little or something.


Either way, that chase scene is excellent and everyone should watch it as it is one of the best ever filmed. Also, the car on fire in the explosion at the end, is a Camaro..

I still personally think the original Gone in 60 Seconds (Elenor was a 71 Mach 1) had the best chase scene ever. That chase scene was also nearly half the movie and the story behind how they did it is even better. They didn't have permits for everything, actual public reactions (even running over to help people in "accidents" not knowing it was a movie stunt), not everyone knew what was going on, the police were actually police and not all of them knew it was for a movie, etc..
Max Balchowski built the cars for the movie. The Mustangs that were used had some performance upgrades to the engine as well as the suspension, to withstand the abuse of jumping the car on the steep streets of San Francisco. The engines were "hot rodded" by tweaks to the carb jetting, ignition timing, and the heads were milled.
Not to sure what all was done to the Chargers but they must have received, at least, some suspension modifications. I suspect that the engines didn't need much tuning because the 440's were pretty strong pre-70's.
I don't think that they would have felt it necessary to de-tune the Charger. It is, after all, a movie. They can do whatever they want with the editing.

Lol.
Now I'm going to have to watch "Gone in 60 seconds" again...
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Old 03-14-2016, 08:31 AM   #25
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Actually I read that somewhere too. The chargers were so powerful they had to limit them by doing certain things.

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Old 03-14-2016, 10:33 AM   #26
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Please excuse my ignorance and/or misunderstanding but why would someone double clutch, which takes more time, rather than rev match when driving synchronised transmissions?
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Old 03-14-2016, 12:29 PM   #27
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Actually I read that somewhere too. The chargers were so powerful they had to limit them by doing certain things.

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There is a lot of incorrect information floating around about the Bullitt cars.

The 440 Chargers were more powerful than the 390 Mustangs but they also weighed around 600 lbs more than the Stangs.
Depending on who you believe, and who was doing the testing, there was only a couple of tenths difference in the quarter mile times of the two cars.
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Old 03-14-2016, 12:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Diehard View Post
Please excuse my ignorance and/or misunderstanding but why would someone double clutch, which takes more time, rather than rev match when driving synchronised transmissions?
I don't think that anyone in their right mind would actually double clutch a synchronized transmission nowadays.
In the movie, Steve probably did it for a more dramatic effect.
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