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Old 05-09-2016, 03:15 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by 5LHO View Post
I read it....but your conclusions are too simple. There is far more to manifold design than just reducing pressure differential. In fact, reducing that differential can negatively affect performance. Just because that differential is there does not enable you to draw the conclusion the airbox is starving the engine.

Stock intake design tends to favour two methods of addressing the concerns with throttle response v. WOT performance. Either you make a huge airbox feed a tiny TB to keep velocity up or, you choke down the plenum volume of the airbox and put on a big TB to create a cycling replenishment of all the air in the airbox.

This setup smacks a bit more of the latter than the former and, as such, increasing the plenum volume of the intake like this will likely diminish performance in most situations, if the basic VE of the engine is unchanged. This is why tuning can work with CAI because tuning changes the VE of the engine to better match the parameters of the CAI.

I appreciate the effort you've made here but, I don't agree with the conclusions you've arrived at from the data you collected.
That's fair. I feel we did a good job of collecting the data, but everything you have said as far as interpreting it makes sense.
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Old 05-09-2016, 04:03 PM   #37
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Every time this thread is revived I read every post. One thing I can say for certain is that a forced induction system cannot be compared to the needs of a naturally aspirated engine. Don't misunderstand me, an engine is an air pump regardless on how it receives air. The end result is the same in a combustion engine. Why bother with forced induction? Because it compresses more air which means more fuel can burn, which in turn creates a larger explosion in the cylinder. I am not going to finish explaining how an engine works. I think we all know that information. A supercharger or turbo is leaf blower on steroids, so yes you can restrict the amount of air that system pulls.

A naturally aspirated engine is operates with the air the engine itself is able to draw in with each piston stroke. At some point you will reach a bottle neck. Imagine a sink full of water. The rate in which the sink drains is not going to naturally change. You can put gallons of water in the sink per second, but you will not increase the water the drain is able to eliminate by adding more water. You will overflow the sink.

I have read a lot of information concerning CAI on the Mustang. The intake is efficient in the factory form. The biggest restriction is the paper filter, and that is quickly changed.

Running a huge section of plumbing over the engine and snaking it down a fender, or to an opening of the bumper cover is not going to give the engine anymore air than it can already pull in its natural state. The squares, ribs, and bends in the intake are not causing an air flow restriction with a stock engine.

A ram air system could work to some degree depending on the design. You are still overfilling the sink though. For a true CAI to work it would need to be close to unfiltered, be almost diect to the throttle body, and have the fewest amount of bends possible. When air moves around an object, or is introduced to a sharp turn, turbulence is created. Now you have a vacuum with negative pressure.

If I wanted to build an efficient intake aesthetics and aerodynamics would have to be ignored. There would need to be a massive scoop collecting air outside of the engine bay, and outside of the interruption of air the car itself produces. That scoop would need to be connected to a pipe feeding the throttle body. That pipe would need to be in line with the air being forced in, and in a position that eliminates a 90° turn to the throttle body.

You would likely end up with the world's ugliest bulldozer bucket hanging off the front of your hood or fender.

You would still only draw in the amount of air the engine can independently suck in.

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Old 05-10-2016, 12:58 AM   #38
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That's fair. I feel we did a good job of collecting the data, but everything you have said as far as interpreting it makes sense.
It does get tricky with exhaust as well. The back-pressure required for the system and sensors to work correctly also has to be within a fairly small (optimal) range. And so sticking on a larger "less restrictive" system won't usually accomplish anything unless there's a major change that requires it to be so. Like a blower or turbo or possibly an aggressive tune.

Yes, the stock airbox is a bit more restrictive. It still works as well as the engine needs it to, though.

And as for changing the filter, it depends where you live. Out here in California or anyplace with deserts, it's ill-advised as the micro-fine dust that is everywhere is like sandpaper on the insides of your engine and contaminates your oil much faster than you'd like to believe possible. You want the highest level of filtering possible in that case. Now, if you lived in Florida, it would be another story.
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Old 05-10-2016, 01:35 PM   #39
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Not 100%, but the rubber gasket on top seems to do a good job against the hood. I was checking my air inlet temps on the highway this morning, outside air temp was 56, inlet temp was 59. Can't complain about that.
That's a bigger difference than I see under the same conditions with the OEM air box and filter! I would indeed complain about that!
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Old 05-10-2016, 01:58 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5LHO View Post
I read it....but your conclusions are too simple. There is far more to manifold design than just reducing pressure differential. In fact, reducing that differential can negatively affect performance. Just because that differential is there does not enable you to draw the conclusion the airbox is starving the engine.

Stock intake design tends to favour two methods of addressing the concerns with throttle response v. WOT performance. Either you make a huge airbox feed a tiny TB to keep velocity up or, you choke down the plenum volume of the airbox and put on a big TB to create a cycling replenishment of all the air in the airbox.

This setup smacks a bit more of the latter than the former and, as such, increasing the plenum volume of the intake like this will likely diminish performance in most situations, if the basic VE of the engine is unchanged. This is why tuning can work with CAI because tuning changes the VE of the engine to better match the parameters of the CAI.

I appreciate the effort you've made here but, I don't agree with the conclusions you've arrived at from the data you collected.
Also air box volume (lid size in this case) is not necessarily about flow. The volume of the air box affects the internal acoustics of the intake system. When air is rushing through an intake valve and that intake valve closes, there is a reflected wave as the inertia of that moving air is suddenly stopped. This reflective wave or pressure wave contains a denser charge of air. Tuners take advantage of that reflected wave to help stuff additional air charge into other cylinders that are just opening the intake valve. To do this the reflected wave has to be timed just right so that it arrives at the other intake port at exactly the desired time. This timing can be shifted around by changing the geometry and volume of the intake system depending at what RPM the engine tuner wants the extra boost to occur.

I can't help thinking you loose a lot of this carefully designed acoustic tuning just ripping out that well-designed OEM air box and substituting something that may not have been engineered as thoroughly.
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Old 05-10-2016, 02:27 PM   #41
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I ran a data logger today in my 02 GT with stock air box with K&N filter. The temperature outside is a humid and muggy 78°. While idling the engine temp was at 192° and the air intake temp was at 98°. At one point while sitting for about five minutes the intake temperature climbed to 118°, but that temperature fluctuated slightly depending on the cooling fan.

Driving immediately made a difference in the air intake temperature. As soon as I pulled into the highway and put the car in 5th gear the temperature matched the outside ambient temperature of 78°. The intake temperature remained at 78° even when I had to slow down for a 25 mph school zone. The intake temperature did not begin to rise again until I came to a full stop to wait on my daughter to make her way to the car. In the few moments I was stopped the intake temperature only rose into the 90° range. As soon as the car was moving the temperature began dropping. After a mile of driving 25-35 mph the intake temperature was back to 78°.

This proves to me without any doubt that the factory intake system is effective in drawing in ambient cool air. You cannot draw exterior air that is any cooler than the ambient temperature without chilling the air in some form.

I would not recommend chilling the air for an extended time. Condensation will form, and you will draw water. I doubt it will be enough water to damage anything, but you will have condensation.

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Old 05-10-2016, 05:30 PM   #42
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Another thing you guys have to consider is something we run into with boosted cars all the time.

On the mazdaspeed3 platform people spend a LOT of time trying to perfect their intercooler designs and compare temps. However, the sensor that reads temperature is sitting in an aluminum intake manifold lol... you're never going to get true readings once your sensor and / or housing heat soaks.

A lot of the aftermarket intakes use plastic for this reason, but any aluminum intake will read hotter, but that doesn't mean the air is any hotter. The air isn't even in the intake long enough to pick up any substantial heat, but the sensor is still heat soaked, and still going to skew readings. This IAT hunting is a wild goose chase, you just want whatever setup will give the most MAF flow.
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Old 05-11-2016, 10:53 AM   #43
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I agree the stock intake is the tits. I laugh when I see people spend hard earned $$ on fancy intakes, only to see under hood air being sucked up. And the paper filters are as good as any too

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Old 05-11-2016, 11:29 AM   #44
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Stock intake isnt bad at all at low and mid range. I got just a tune a month after I got my 15 GT, and it came to life. I liked the look of the Steeda pro flow cai without the insert, and had to get it retuned. She is even stronger on top with that now. Low and mid about the same. Wish I would have dynoed with just the tube and again with the CAI and tune. Even Steeda said not to run this CAI without a proper tune. I'm a believer. Maybe it's the volocity stack with the huge opening. It's definitely working for me. And the iats are great, only a few more degrees warmer than the actual temp, according to the gage in my car. My butt dyno is happy. LOL
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