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Old 06-29-2016, 05:48 PM   #1
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Which FI for my goals?

Hello guys, I know a million variations of this question are out there because I've read at least half of them ...
But, I ask about my needs (desires is likely more true)?
My goals obviously start with more power. Where my question comes in is I am NOT concerned with top speed. I've never driven over 150 and don't really have a desire to. I enjoy more autocross'y or mountain'y type driving. I see lower to moderate speed, high rpms, cornering, and burst of acceleration. I guess my 0-120 is where I want to enjoy the car, and not really a quarter mile line, only on rare occasion.
I bought a standard 14 GT premium with Brembo and 3.73's. I've already taken care of the suspension (lca, uca/mount, pan han, shock/struts/spring/CC plates, strut brace), clutch res, clutch line, and MGW race spec shifter. I'm in process of prepping cooling system via larger radi and oil to air cooler. I have the driveline/loop on the list after that. I may (for anesthetic reasons) do the GT500 rear rotor "upgrade/mod".
This car and is my DD (until I buy a beater/go FI) for now. I will want to keep it to safe boost/HP/Trq levels. From what I've read this mean 600'ish whp and/or 5-9 psi depending on the system. I prefer longevity over instant gratification.
Please let me know what you think. I prefer constructive but if I'm getting crazy tell me. My wife always tells me I can get too focused on my goals.

TIA,
Slim
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:17 AM   #2
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If I had to do it over again, I would get a 2.9 front feed Whipple. These weren't available when I got my E-Force.(which I'm happy with) https://whipplesuperchargers.com/ind...product_id=294
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Old 06-30-2016, 08:24 AM   #3
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3.73 + stick + FI is an explosive combination, believe me. FI is SO overkill to get what you describe you need and will make the car "all motor" as it were, unless some really serious suspension mods, wheels and tires are factored in and even then, it'll still be heavily throttle biased.

If you're committed, (in both senses of the word ), I'd suggest the well-trodden pathway of a TVS style blower like Roush or VMP and maybe down gear the car to 3.31. Essentially the throttle will still turn into a rheostat for boiling rear tires but you can control that. You won't be putting your foot all the way down on street tires all that much, which may frustrate. Vortech/Paxton stacks the power all at the top so, is easier to drive aggressively but, it tends to feel like a soft stocker most of the time, which may not be gratifying enough for the expense.
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Old 06-30-2016, 08:25 AM   #4
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Tommy, please give a bit more detail. What's your driving style? Why the whipple instead?
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Old 06-30-2016, 08:36 AM   #5
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5LHO, what are "really serious" suspension mods? I guess I forgot to mention the wheel/tires. I knew tires and wheels will be if I can't find any tires for the factory 19" rim. I want to stay as factory appearance as possible. I know dropping didn't help this but I hope that'd be all that is seen.
Also, is turbo out of the question or has it not been mentioned as its not as common? It seems that a properly sized turbo would give great DD manners but keep the power in mid to high RPMs.
So, as for the 3.73s it sounds like they are a bit much for FI. I had read that but was hoping to choose around the gears to avoid replacement. I get that is not the best way to go about it.
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Old 06-30-2016, 09:35 AM   #6
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Turbo is freaking awesome, particularly twins, which give the response of PD, with top end that exceeds a centri blower setup. Just alot of installation hassles and increased # of failure modes down the road, because of all the additional piping/connections.

If you want to go cornering a Mustang with a blower on it, you'll have to go whole hog on suspension. I'd go coil overs at that point myself but at minimum a full top quality shock and spring setup with bars and arms front and back. This won't be the place for street shocks like SRT Konis or budget Chinese-manufactured stuff. You will be well served with wider and lighter wheels/tires than stock. You're dragging around over 65 pounds a corner in wheel and tire as it sits and you're aiming to put more strain and speed on all that unsprung weight...not a good idea.

If a few hundred bucks for a gear swap is holding you back, you don't have enough money for this. You could probably go to a local shop and say, hey, I'd like trade gears for 3:31, I have a set of good 3.73s and they'd credit you some for them, as they are desirable.
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Old 06-30-2016, 10:36 AM   #7
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Better yet, swap a guy who has 3.31 for your 3.73 and ask for a few hundred bucks on top. Then just swap out the entire axle. Would take a few hours max and you would be swapped.
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Old 06-30-2016, 11:19 AM   #8
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The money for the gears isn't the hold up. I didn't want to loss the pure grunt in the low end that I currently have. Maybe I guess that's where my crazy starts to seep in, wanting everything without ANY drawbacks.
Ok, I'll look into the gear swap? You are saying just do the entire rear axles? Is that right? I guess that'd be much easier.
I've always heard the terms sprung and unsprung weight. I thought it only effected perceived power and very minimally the times in QMs. I didn't even think about the effects in carving. Guess I'll go do some more reading.
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Old 06-30-2016, 12:08 PM   #9
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Yeah instead of fooling with paying someone to do a gear swap and taking the chance of it whining or breaking on you why not just swap the whole rearend with a guy who has a factory sealed 3.31 and is hoping to avoid the same issues.
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Old 06-30-2016, 12:37 PM   #10
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Corner Carver with a Kenne Bell here.
Love it to death.

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Old 06-30-2016, 12:58 PM   #11
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It sounds like you prefer handling driving over very fast driving and drag racing.
I would recommend going for some naturally aspirated bolt ons and aim for 440-460whp. CJ manifold, headers, etc.

Boost is essentially useless in autocross, the courses are just too small. If anything it slows you down because you're constantly fighting oversteer.
If you don't drag race and rarely go over 120 i just don't see the reason to add boost.

I think you'd get far more enjoyment out of some N/A power mods and a very good suspension setup, light wheels and tires, etc.
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Old 06-30-2016, 08:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimguns View Post
Tommy, please give a bit more detail. What's your driving style? Why the whipple instead?
I have 3:73's and it's fine. You just have to learn how to control the throttle and know what RPM's your boost kicks in. The new Whipple can make a lot of HP at low boost levels. It also has one of the largest intercoolers on the market. The lower your IAT's the better.
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Old 06-30-2016, 09:47 PM   #13
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If you don't drag race and rarely go over 120 i just don't see the reason to add boost.
That is true about the style for the most part.
Maybe I'm being technical/picky but there's a lot of room for boost under 120. Frankly I doubt most of the boosted cars on here do even a quarter of their drive time at or above 120. Even at the strip the cars don't get to go much over 120'ish.
Who knows, maybe I'm just being argumentative.

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Old 06-30-2016, 10:53 PM   #14
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Under 120 your fight is for traction and it really looks like you really don't know what you are signing up for trying to lay full power down with a stick and 3.73s + FI. Things can get bad pretty quickly with that much power on tap and 2wd.

I ain't anybody's Yoda here but, I've tried a few hot setups in 30+ years at this game, including 2 power adders on this platform.
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Old 06-30-2016, 11:24 PM   #15
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Boost is fun and all, but if you want to do autocross or road course sessions it is only going to work against you. On the street and with 3.73s it is going to be a fight for traction like 5LHO is saying. 3.31s really work much better for boost.

Trust me... I wanted boost too...
But my main fun activity in the car is HPDE sessions. Boost would make that so much more difficult to enjoy so I am instead going for a naturally aspirated build and focusing on making the car nimble and fun to drive on turns, and keeping cooling in check.
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Old 07-01-2016, 10:06 AM   #16
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Corner Carver with a Kenne Bell here.
Love it to death.

Watched a lot of your videos!

Had a big grin on my face when I read your statement.

A car owner was unhappy with his race cars performance so he had me drive it to see what was wrong with it. I promptly set a new track record and handed it back to him and said; "There's nothing wrong with it."
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Old 07-01-2016, 10:13 AM   #17
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Watched a lot of your videos!

Had a big grin on my face when I read your statement.

A car owner was unhappy with his race cars performance so he had me drive it to see what was wrong with it. I promptly set a new track record and handed it back to him and said; "There's nothing wrong with it."
Haha....I'm glad you found the humor in that....his regular driver sure didn't.
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Old 07-01-2016, 10:23 AM   #18
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Boost is fun and all, but if you want to do autocross or road course sessions it is only going to work against you.

I think Fabman would disagree with you.

I also disagree. I've seen plenty of people running boosted coyotes on autox with much success. I plan on getting into it as soon as I finish my car (so close). I recently installed a whipple front feed 2.9

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Old 07-01-2016, 10:36 AM   #19
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I think Fabman would disagree with you.

I also disagree. I've seen plenty of people running boosted coyotes on autox with much success. I plan on getting into it as soon as I finish my car (so close). I recently installed a whipple front feed 2.9

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HPDE is definitely doable.....I do it all the time
Good tires and good suspension sure helps. (I run on R comps/Cortex Coilovers)
Also being an experienced driver doesn't hurt.
You don't need 700 hp, just super low boost and a good tune with a nice broad powerband.
A well setup N/A motor would be awesome, but my old 3 valve would never make the power of a well prepped N/A Coyote so I stuck with the blower.
I'm not promoting FI, just saying that it can and has been done successfully by myself and others.
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Old 07-01-2016, 10:53 AM   #20
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It definitely can be done, but once you start pushing the car hard it becomes a whole different process of trying to keep temps down, keep up with braking and grip, etc.
Keep in mind even "super low boost" on a coyote is like 550whp minimum. That's a lot of power for a heavy car that already takes a bit of work to make it good on a track. One of my track friends actually took his roush blower off the car because he didn't enjoy tracking it with that much power.

It should also be noted that if you're setting track records you obviously know what you're doing and have quite a bit of seat time. I definitely wouldn't recommend someone starting to get involved in track/autox to add boost to their car.
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Old 07-01-2016, 11:12 AM   #21
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I'm a pioneer sir. Also no stranger to the seat. Just starting "officially" taking it to these events. If you check my build thread you will see the 18k I have spent on supporting mods prior to the blower. Obviously I will need to continue to dial her in as I drive her in these events. But the guy I got the blower from was huge into autox and he swore by it.
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Old 07-01-2016, 12:41 PM   #22
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Don't have a Coyote but going 4V boosted and handling setup. Considered trading my Novi for a PD style blower but if you are corner carving on a road course you are going to have the RPMs up in the powerband all the time. AutoX you won't really need FI. I would only go turbo for 1/4 or street car.
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Old 07-01-2016, 01:02 PM   #23
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No one "needs" FI 😂
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Old 07-01-2016, 02:34 PM   #24
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It definitely can be done, but once you start pushing the car hard it becomes a whole different process of trying to keep temps down, keep up with braking and grip, etc.
Keep in mind even "super low boost" on a coyote is like 550whp minimum. That's a lot of power for a heavy car that already takes a bit of work to make it good on a track. One of my track friends actually took his roush blower off the car because he didn't enjoy tracking it with that much power.

It should also be noted that if you're setting track records you obviously know what you're doing and have quite a bit of seat time. I definitely wouldn't recommend someone starting to get involved in track/autox to add boost to their car.
It's definitely not for the faint of heart, that's for sure.
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Old 07-01-2016, 02:47 PM   #25
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It definitely can be done, but once you start pushing the car hard it becomes a whole different process of trying to keep temps down, keep up with braking and grip, etc.
Keep in mind even "super low boost" on a coyote is like 550whp minimum. That's a lot of power for a heavy car that already takes a bit of work to make it good on a track. One of my track friends actually took his roush blower off the car because he didn't enjoy tracking it with that much power.

It should also be noted that if you're setting track records you obviously know what you're doing and have quite a bit of seat time. I definitely wouldn't recommend someone starting to get involved in track/autox to add boost to their car.
I can agree with everything said here.
However, regarding Horsepower and handling, what difference does it make if it's a 550 HP N/A motor or a 550 HP boosted motor? Do the tires know?
HP is a lot cheaper by the pound in a FI motor than an all motor platform.
Does the OP NEED the extra power? Nope. I agree with everything you said.

Wring all the speed you can out of the car with suspension and driving technique before you add any power. Back when I was training drivers in stock cars I would pull a plug wire and make them ride around on 7 cylinders until they could equal their time on 8 cylinders. You'd be surprised how quickly you get smooth when the power goes away. Put the plug wire back on and boom. Winners.
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Old 07-01-2016, 06:12 PM   #26
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I'm also boosted w/ 3.73 M6. I do have to run drag slick in rear to get good trac. 1-4 gear


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Old 07-02-2016, 08:12 AM   #27
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Hey Slim, I also have 6MT, 3.73 and am boosted (Roush TVS w/VMP) and this is my DD during the summer/good weather months. I have to agree with the gear comments. 1st gear is useless, I'm running 19X10 summer tire and will use 1st, but mostly take off in 2nd and yes, skipping gears for daily driving is easy and works well. My wife doesn't like driving the car and I tell her to think of it as a 3 spd...but it's alright by me if she doesn't drive it lol.
You seem to be on the right track as for suspension etc mods. I didn't see relo brackets on your list. I would add those. You might look at the blowfish safety loop that doubles as a shifter support bracket.
I agree with no one needs FI but I think you'll love it! I don't push my car, rarely go over 120 and I love it! I don't even have upgraded brakes or extra cooling, though I am in the northeast. Respect the power and use your head. Yeah, maybe it's all underutilized but it's a fun driving car! Btw, when you drop the hammer, make sure that wheel is pointed straight. Fish tails at 55+ make for soiled underwear
I would recommend the VMP Gen II TVS but I have no experience with other types of FI platforms. The Gen II has a molded elbow for more air flow and if arguments are being made that 550whp is enough, a 2.9 seems to be overkill?

This speaks volumes...'A car owner was unhappy with his race cars performance so he had me drive it to see what was wrong with it. I promptly set a new track record and handed it back to him and said; "There's nothing wrong with it."'
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