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Old 07-23-2016, 03:37 PM   #1
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Simple E85 question with multiple online answers...

Hello all, so as I look into the possibility of using E85 in my DD I wonder if a tuner can/will tune for pump E85? I know it's a variable and changes blends but having to test before each fill up and possibly have to change tunes at the station is not something I'd want to do.
I plan to (and don't mind) changing tunes before road trips and other reason while at home but at the station on the fly'ish creates a cost/benefit I find unacceptable.
How do you DD with E85? Do you have your tune set for E65 and waste any potential above that or keep 2-4 tunes on hand to load based on testing.
I see the fuel for its huge potential but it seems to be a PITA too. Please tell me it's easier than I'm picturing.

FYI, I'm NA now but I'm asking primarily for when I install the Vortech.

TIA,
Slim
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Old 07-23-2016, 07:15 PM   #2
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Yes but you will need injectors.
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Old 07-23-2016, 08:12 PM   #3
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I understand the injector switch and addition of a BAP are both needed. I plan at least 1k injectors unless I can verify that the 1.3k's are actually less prone to corrosion.
But, my actual questions are all geared more towards the tuning for and testing of E85 for use in a DD.
Any thoughts on the questions in the OP?

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Old 07-23-2016, 11:31 PM   #4
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I know Lund, AED, Livernois tunes only require the 47# injectors and they are flex fuel tunes, meaning that you don't need to switch tunes every time you fill up your tank. The tune will compensate for the mixture of the fuels.
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Old 07-24-2016, 09:16 AM   #5
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As for the injectors, I have my reasons that are still being researched.
If they are tuning and calling it a "flex fuel" tune than either they are tuning for the lowest common denominator or they are requiring a flex fuel (ethanol) sensor that can adjust on the fly. More likely the first I guess. Can someone confirm or deny this?

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Old 07-24-2016, 12:59 PM   #6
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Been on pump e85 full time for years. No problems. Install an e85 meter and watch the fuel content at various stations until you find your favorites. Shop there. It's fine full time just know the facts up front, set it up correctly and prepare to make good power and get crappy mileage. AED tuned mine to perfection.
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Old 07-24-2016, 08:15 PM   #7
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DUMB QUESTION
Why would you even want to use E-85 in your Mustang?
I would think you would be better off finding a station that sells 90 octane Ethanol free gas.
Just wondering????
Ronnie
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Old 07-24-2016, 08:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnie948 View Post
DUMB QUESTION
Why would you even want to use E-85 in your Mustang?
I would think you would be better off finding a station that sells 90 octane Ethanol free gas.
Just wondering????
Ronnie
e85 is awesome with blower cars....he's shopping for a blower.
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Old 07-24-2016, 08:21 PM   #9
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Thanks,
Ronnie
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:05 PM   #10
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So, I looked at the Lund FlexFuel tunes and they are only for NA. While the FlexFuel tune brings ease before the blower my questions still stand, and a new one arose....

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimguns View Post
How do you DD with E85? Do you have your tune set for E65 and waste any potential above that or keep 2-4 tunes on hand to load based on testing.
I see the fuel for its huge potential but it seems to be a PITA too. Please tell me it's easier than I'm picturing.

FYI, I'm NA now but I'm asking primarily for when I install the Vortech.

TIA,
Slim
The new question, is the NA FlexFuel tune worth it in the mean time? Do you actually get the 20-30 hp gain on it like you would an E85 specific tune?

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Old 07-24-2016, 10:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimguns View Post
So, I looked at the Lund FlexFuel tunes and they are only for NA. While the FlexFuel tune brings ease before the blower my questions still stand, and a new one arose....



The new question, is the NA FlexFuel tune worth it in the mean time? Do you actually get the 20-30 hp gain on it like you would an E85 specific tune?

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Only worth it if you're blown IMHO.
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Old 08-02-2016, 07:07 PM   #12
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Speaking form experience as a actual tuner not a customer.

You can enable flex fuel logic(and populate the appropriate multipliers and modifiers) on stock injectors and safely run Ethanol mixes up to 50/50 mix if COT is enabled(if you still have cats installed).

I have tested a 50/50 mix with COT enabled multiple times at it will hold .80 lambda all the way to 7800rpm using the Cobra Jet manifold and stock injectors and no BAP.

I tested a E60 on stock injectors, cobra jet manifold, no BAP and COT disabled and it held .85 lambda all the way to 7800 rpm no problem.

I haven't tried a higher E-mix yet though as there is little to no gains past 60% ethanol when NA anyway.

You do not need to worry about knowing the E% because this is inferred by the ECM based on the stoich values. When datalogging you can add the "Ethanol Percentage" PID which will tell you what ethanol percentage you are running.

Not sure on how much more power you will see as it depends your mods. When running e60 my car will command an additional 4.5* of spark advanced than it will on e10.

Flex fuel logic can be enabled on boosted car, but most tuners won't turn it on due to numerous reasons I have seen. Anything from saying fix fuel logic doesn't always work to it not being worth the risk due to it being inferred by stoich versus being read by a actual sensor in the fuel line. If your 2 sensors fails, you're pretty much screwed, especially if this occurs during a WOT pull.
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Old 08-02-2016, 08:43 PM   #13
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Thank you, that helps me understand.
My main question is in regards to driving a boosted car as a DD. Being that the whole flex idea isn't generally thought to be a great idea, how is it done? Do i need to have multiple times and test before each tank? Or, is it tuned worth a specific error built in (ie. tuned for e70, lose all potential above that)? Please advise, and thank you for the tuning perspective. While i may be a consumer i like to know what I'm getting into.

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Old 08-02-2016, 11:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimguns View Post
Thank you, that helps me understand.
My main question is in regards to driving a boosted car as a DD. Being that the whole flex idea isn't generally thought to be a great idea, how is it done? Do i need to have multiple times and test before each tank? Or, is it tuned worth a specific error built in (ie. tuned for e70, lose all potential above that)? Please advise, and thank you for the tuning perspective. While i may be a consumer i like to know what I'm getting into.

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There is a setting that will trigger a ethanol percentage relearn. Mine is et to 10%. So if fuel level incresses by 10% the ECM will relearn the ethanol percentage of the tank and then run the appropriate predefined tables for that percentage.

There is no trial and error with the flex fuel logic. Your MAF curve has to be pretty damn close for flex fuel to work properly. Your STFT can handle minor changes, but you want that curve to be as spot on as possible.

All the tables are predefine by multipliers and modifiers so you don't have to tune for a specific percentage. Here is an example of what I am referring too. The attached image is the flex fuel multiplier and modifier tables on my current tune. There are other modifiers/multipliers tables too e.g. "WOT lambda"

Behaviors exhibited by these settings. The modifiers can be adjusted to suit an individuals needs and goals. I have tested e60 with a 4.5* spark advance and have gotten zero KR on my car so I know that works.

At e30 it will add 30% of 4.5*, which would be 1.35* of spark advance
At e35 it will add 45% of 4.5*, which would be 2.00* of spark advance
At e40 it will add 90% of 4.5*, which would be 4.05* of spark advance
At e60 and above it will add 100% of 4.5*, which would be 4.5* of spark advance


On a boosted car you would want to play with the multiplier and modifier to get something along the lines of what you are looking for. The biggest risk is running out of fuel, e.g. LU47's would not keep up on a TVS car trying to run flex fuel on a e85 tank.

If you go to the TVS route, I would say pick up some DW78's and BAP and you should be safe to enable the flex fuel logic.
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Old 08-03-2016, 09:26 AM   #15
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^^^Great post^^^
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