3.31 or 3.73 '13 AT - Want to learn not debate! - Mustang Evolution

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Old 12-30-2017, 09:03 AM   #1
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3.31 or 3.73 '13 AT - Want to learn not debate!

My previous thread about Supercharger cost turned into a gearing debate. Creating a new thread, because I want to understand what "3.31 is best" means rather than debate if it was a good idea or not.

I have a 2013 GT Automatic that I had 3.73 gearing installed with much criticism. I always understood it's a "trick" not resulting in real HP. The car does feel quicker off the line and snappier to me, which is what I wanted, though, after the fact, it was suggested a torque converter would have been a better option. Yes... 1st gear is like 1/2 a second on quick takeoff.

I communicated w/someone at Circle D and his response was --- I don't think the 3.73 gears are a deal breaker. Some of our quickest N/A cars are geared and obviously work very well. I would add the converter and see what you think after that. For now, I would like to see you in the 245mm 9.75" core. This will work well to get you in the powerband and still maintain good street manners. Something around the 3600 range would work very well on the street.

When I asked if I should go back to the 3.31 his response was --- I would leave the gear for now. Personally, since you added gear, I think the higher stall will still drive really well.

My car has a CAI, Tune, modest exhaust work. I was looking to make it quicker as it felt sluggish to me, out of the powerband. Looking to get an edge on the street compared to the stocker stangs, camaros, etc.

So I guess the main questions I have are - when folks say 3.31 is better yet my car feels quicker to me with 3.73...what am I missing? What will the converter accomplish? What's the diff in performance with 3.31 w/a converter vs 3.73 w/a converter? What is the dude at Circle D missing?

Again... trying to learn here and make the best decision... thank you.
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:35 AM   #2
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My question to you is, if steeper gears were better why did you stop at 3.73's? Why not install some 4.56's? I mean the more gear the better right? You have to factor in the gearing of the transmission which is really steep especially with a 4.17 1st gear.

I'm not going to debate this again as it's just silly. I know my car with stock 3.15's was stupid fast to the point I had to be careful at the track with no cage. I sold my car before it was finished but I was running very low 11's with just a few bolt ons. I have a friend in Texas running mid 10's with nothing but bolt ons and 3.31's that does his own tuning. I guess he's on to something no?
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:53 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AXG View Post
My previous thread about Supercharger cost turned into a gearing debate. Creating a new thread, because I want to understand what "3.31 is best" means rather than debate if it was a good idea or not.

I have a 2013 GT Automatic that I had 3.73 gearing installed with much criticism. I always understood it's a "trick" not resulting in real HP. The car does feel quicker off the line and snappier to me, which is what I wanted, though, after the fact, it was suggested a torque converter would have been a better option. Yes... 1st gear is like 1/2 a second on quick takeoff.

I communicated w/someone at Circle D and his response was --- I don't think the 3.73 gears are a deal breaker. Some of our quickest N/A cars are geared and obviously work very well. I would add the converter and see what you think after that. For now, I would like to see you in the 245mm 9.75" core. This will work well to get you in the powerband and still maintain good street manners. Something around the 3600 range would work very well on the street.

When I asked if I should go back to the 3.31 his response was --- I would leave the gear for now. Personally, since you added gear, I think the higher stall will still drive really well.

My car has a CAI, Tune, modest exhaust work. I was looking to make it quicker as it felt sluggish to me, out of the powerband. Looking to get an edge on the street compared to the stocker stangs, camaros, etc.

So I guess the main questions I have are - when folks say 3.31 is better yet my car feels quicker to me with 3.73...what am I missing? What will the converter accomplish? What's the diff in performance with 3.31 w/a converter vs 3.73 w/a converter? What is the dude at Circle D missing?

Again... trying to learn here and make the best decision... thank you.
What is comes down to is "feels quicker" and "is quicker" are not the same thing.

The best way i can think to explain this is racing my old buddy back in the day. My car was a 6 speed and had relatively short gears, his car was a 5 speed with slightly longer gears. My car would run through the gears fast, i was constantly shifting and it felt like i was flying whereas his car would hold a gear forever and just never felt quick ... his car would walk the **** out of mine however because he was able to just stay in the powerband and put literally car lengths on me.

If the 3.73s are "fun," and fun is all that matters, then F it you know, it's your car and should be modded in a way that you find enjoyable. Feeling fast is sometimes more fun than being fast.
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:59 AM   #4
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Grabber you're trying to question me as if I'm implying you all are wrong and I'm right. I already indicated I don't know and want to understand. Is it wrong for me to try to understand the difference?

Let me ask this way... .the car feels quicker to me w/3.73, and I'll take everyone's word for it that I'm leaving power on the table w/this setup, despite how it feels to me. If I go back to 3.31 and add a converter how will it feel (what's the gain) vs. 3.31 w/no converter? If I keep the 3.73 and add a converter how will it feel (what will I gain) compared to my current setup?

Also interested in hearing about the bolt ons you mentioned... I want to get the most out of this car for mostly spirited street driving. Thanks.
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:07 AM   #5
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Volt...thanks. I want to BE faster... my feeling faster is likely wrong and misleading and probably my relative lack of experience driving these cars is misleading me. W/the stock setup it always felt like was digging myself out of the bottom of a gear into the powerband if that makes any sense. Maybe it's a symptom of AT vs. MT. (would love MT, but would hate it in Miami traffic). Maybe this is what the stall/converter would help fix. Would be good to know.
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:44 AM   #6
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I installed a stall converter on my 2008 Corvette A6 (3,400 rpm) and HATED it for the street. In normal driving, it took a good 1 1/2 seconds to begin to move when the light turned green. And in normal driving around town, where you are almost always below the stall speed, every shift just feels sloppy as all get out because the converter is not locked up.
Now, power braking it up against the stall converter in that Corvette? THAT was fun....but also keep in mind that I did not change the stock gears — 3.15’s (!!) if I remember correctly.

With a stall converter as you describe and the 3.73’s, I guarantee that you will be able to launch in the power band.....but first gear is barely going to be good for about 20 feet, if that, before you will be up against the rev limiter.
You will also be possibly — even severely — traction limited when launching as the full effect of a locked up converter at higher rpm and torque (when you power brake) is going to hit those rear tires from a stop, along with the multiplication effect of your 3.73’s.
I don’t know what the stock stall converter speed/rpm is on an A6 Mustang like ours, but I suspect now that you have 3.73’s you have more than enough grunt off the line without a higher stall speed. Also keep in mind that a stall converter ONLY affects first gear acceleration, as it is locked up just like your stock one after that when you are really getting on it and the next shift stays above the stall speed.
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Old 12-30-2017, 01:19 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grabber Blue5.0 View Post
My question to you is, if steeper gears were better why did you stop at 3.73's? Why not install some 4.56's? I mean the more gear the better right?

I'm not going to debate this again as it's just silly.
Are you mad at him or just mocking him? And yes, you did just kind of debate it again. I think he's just after a civil answer, not a reaming. Deep breath, everyone?

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I installed a stall converter on my 2008 Corvette A6 (3,400 rpm) and HATED it for the street. In normal driving, it took a good 1 1/2 seconds to begin to move when the light turned green.
Now, power braking it up against the stall converter? Now, THAT was fun....but also keep in mind that I did not change the stock gears (3.15’s (!!) if I remember correctly.
With a stall converter as you describe and the 3.73’s, I guarantee that you will be able to launch in the power band.....but first gear is barely going to be good for about 20 feet, if that, before you will be up against the rev limiter.
You will also be possibly — even severely — traction limited when launching as the full effect of a locked up converter (when you power brake) at high rpm is going to hit those rear tires from a stop.
I don’t know what the stock stall converter speed/rpm is on an A6 Mustang like ours, but I suspect now that you have 3.73’s you have more than enough grunt off the line without a higher stall speed. Also keep in mind that a stall converter ONLY effects first gear acceleration, as it is locked up just like your stock one after that.

+1 on what sounds like good points by Guard 5.0. Probably be useful to define what the car's actual usage will be. As Grabber so thoroughly explained, 1/4 mile track blasts will likely see quickest times with the old gears and a converter. But, what if a car rarely sees the track or standing start launches? If every start in one's daily drive is a high revving delayed affair will that offset the benefit and enjoyment of a new converter?
If I offended anyone with the above I'd like to apologize in advance so no one has to waste AXG's thread space hitting back at me. Also, I have decided to New Year's resolve to be less of a dink.

All the best.
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Old 12-30-2017, 04:00 PM   #8
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I'm not building a car for the track, though it's not out of the question I may take it to the track someday. With the stock gear and Steeda CAI/Tune the car still felt it was bogging through the gears... Like it wouldn't downshift or take too long before it got in the band (not just off the line).... I could put the pedal to the floor and there was a noticeable delay in response. This is at least how I describe it. It doesn't feel as bad now, but I don't want to be slower for it either. Maybe I need a different tune w/better shift points. If there's a more optimal setup, I would like to find it. I totally agree w/points in this or the other thread about putting the power to the ground... it's very hard to launch this car w/o spinning tires down the road (running NITTO NT555 255/45-18s which could obv be better). Sometimes it's fun, but mostly I'd rather have the grip. I think I need to address this transmission issue and delivery to the road first, before messing w/blowers and long tubes. I thought the gearing was the way to address that bogged down feeling but clearly it was the wrong way to go...I get it. I can go back to the stock gears...don't love spending the $ for it, but I will if that's best... I need to know what to do from there.
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:06 PM   #9
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AXG......keep in mind as you ponder your setup, that some of the quickest new cars 0 to 60 get to 60 mph all in first gear. The manufacturers do that on purpose to avoid shifting time that slow the car down. Seems counterintutive, doesn’t it?
That 2008 Corvette I mentioned above with the 3.15’s and the 3,400 rpm stall would make it to 60 in 1st gear. A perfect power-braked launch in that car was WAY quicker to 60 than the stock setup, but with gears as low as yours, the launch and the shift to second are going to slow you down.
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:20 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by AXG View Post
I'm not building a car for the track, though it's not out of the question I may take it to the track someday. With the stock gear and Steeda CAI/Tune the car still felt it was bogging through the gears... Like it wouldn't downshift or take too long before it got in the band (not just off the line).... I could put the pedal to the floor and there was a noticeable delay in response. This is at least how I describe it. It doesn't feel as bad now, but I don't want to be slower for it either. Maybe I need a different tune w/better shift points. If there's a more optimal setup,
Steeda tunes suck monkey balls. That is your problem as well.
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:51 PM   #11
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STALL

Wouldn't a 3600 stall e a little steep for a street car? Would never lock up in normal driving
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:54 PM   #12
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Wouldn't a 3600 stall be a little steep for a street car? Would never lock up in normal driving
Yes.....almost any higher stall speed than stock feels sloppy during part throttle street driving.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:19 PM   #13
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Man... little by little possibly piecing together the best setup for me... so gonna take another stab at it....

1. Go back to stock 3.15 gear (keep stock converter).
2. Upgrade UCA, LCAs.
3. Long tubes (hopefully can be setup to not be obnoxiously loud)
4. Better tune than Steeda (prefer to use my sct x2 if possible)
5. Staggered wheel/tire setup when time to replace.
6. Consider SC later possibly.

Seems most conservative use of $$ for performance gain. Thoughts?
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:19 PM   #14
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Wouldn't a 3600 stall e a little steep for a street car? Would never lock up in normal driving
Nope, not at all. I ran a 3800 stall converter.
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Yes.....almost any higher stall speed than stock feels sloppy during part throttle street driving.
False. With the right tune there is no issue.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:21 PM   #15
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Dammit... posted too quick. Maybe converter in addition to above?
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:22 PM   #16
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Wouldn't a 3600 stall e a little steep for a street car? Would never lock up in normal driving
As an animal lover at this point I'm more worried about it performing unnatural acts on innocent unsuspecting monkeys. But slippage and heat buildup would certainly not help anything either.

All the best.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:23 PM   #17
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If a blower is in your plans that will determine what upgrades you want to do whether it be a converter or gearing. You need to plan a solid plan in place before you start throwing money/parts at it.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:30 PM   #18
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Dang thought I was there.... I think a blower may be a pipe dream... #1) hard for me to justify the 5-8 large #2) I'm not responsible enough even w/the power I have now.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:32 PM   #19
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False. With the right tune there is no issue.
So they can tune a high rpm stall converter to lock up after first gear? Makes sense if they can do this.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:35 PM   #20
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As an animal lover at this point I'm more worried about it performing unnatural acts on innocent unsuspecting monkeys. But slippage and heat buildup would certainly not help anything either.

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Old 12-30-2017, 07:35 PM   #21
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I thought someone said it only affects 1st gear...maybe I read that somewhere.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:37 PM   #22
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So they can tune a high rpm stall converter to lock up after first gear? Makes sense if they can do this.
I know I can tune it to lock up in any gear. But then I've been tuning for many years now so I have a lot of experience. But you were correct when you stated it can feel kind of sloppy during normal street cruising without the right tuning.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:41 PM   #23
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OK.....opinions are just like.........belly buttons — everyone’s got one.
Before you go throwing 1000’s of $$’s at this issue, put yourself in someone’s hands who has years and years of experience in Mustangs....drag, track and street. Someone like this:

https://bradscustomauto.com


They did a full Maximum Motorsports Road and Track package on my ‘97 Cobra and did a great job.

https://www.americanmuscle.com/maxim...114-coupe.html

That car out handled a Ferrari when they were done.
Describe to them what you are after, your budget and then follow their advice. This shop are Mustang magicians.
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:22 PM   #24
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Cool... I might talk to the BBR folks in Boca mentioned in another thread... they're like 30 min from me. I think I'm done with Steeda. I'm sure their techs know what they're doing, but not so sure I trust their sales dept anymore....plus their bad tunes. Brads is across the country from me.
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:31 PM   #25
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Cool... I might talk to the BBR folks in Boca mentioned in another thread... they're like 30 min from me. I think I'm done with Steeda. I'm sure their techs know what they're doing, but not so sure I trust their sales dept anymore....plus their bad tunes. Brads is across the country from me.
A long distance phone call is still free......Brad’s is great to work with, and at least you could compare what BBR might offer for advice.
Good luck getting to where you want to be with your build!
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:06 PM   #26
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Dang thought I was there.... I think a blower may be a pipe dream... #1) hard for me to justify the 5-8 large #2) I'm not responsible enough even w/the power I have now.
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I know I can tune it to lock up in any gear. But then I've been tuning for many years now so I have a lot of experience. But you were correct when you stated it can feel kind of sloppy during normal street cruising without the right tuning.
Hey AXG... why don't you just PM Grabber and see if he does remote tuning, what he charges if so and have him set you up with a plan?
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:13 AM   #27
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Cool... I might talk to the BBR folks in Boca mentioned in another thread... they're like 30 min from me. I think I'm done with Steeda. I'm sure their techs know what they're doing, but not so sure I trust their sales dept anymore....plus their bad tunes. Brads is across the country from me.
From my experience with my 2013 convertible I wouldn't let them tune my lawnmower
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:20 AM   #28
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Blow By Racing? I would run a tune from Steeda before I let them tune my car. Talk about going from bad to worst.
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Old 12-31-2017, 11:18 AM   #29
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Ok. Well thanks for nixing that option.
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Old 12-31-2017, 11:38 AM   #30
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Dude just get a nGauge from Lund with Lund's tunes. Get your 3.15s put back in, full exhaust, BMR control arms/brackets, springs/shocks/struts and a good set of tires and a Circle D converter and run 11s at the track and get 26mpg with the air on crusing at 2150 at 80mph on the highway.

You really are overthinking this. There is a lot... LOT of bad info out there on the web and it seems you are getting pretty caught up in some of it.

You do not need much for these Coyotes... or the 4.6L for that matter to be pretty quick but the Coyote is a completely different animal than the engines before it plus the drivetrain. Don't even replace the stock airbox if you haven't already, just leave it.
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Old 12-31-2017, 01:49 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AXG View Post
Ok. Well thanks for nixing that option.
LOL! Getting afraid to wake up and look at your thread yet?
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Old 12-31-2017, 02:43 PM   #32
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Haha. Yeah. Thanks Scotty.... what you said makes sense. I do overthink the #### out of things. Airbox is already gone but I dig the sound if the CAI. I appreciate everyone's input. Thanks.
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:24 AM   #33
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I was looking at gear ratios in the new 2018 Mustang trying to decide between the new 10 speed automatic or the 6-speed stick. With the Performance Package the 10 speed comes with a 3.55 rear-end and the 1st gear in the transmission is 4.69; second is 2.98; 3rd 2.14; 4th 1.76. Look at the big gap in the ratio between 1st and second compared to the other gear ratios. My guess is that it doesn't stay in 1st too long but it gets the car going and gets the rpms up into the power band. Now the 6-speed Performance Pack has a 3.73 rear end but first gear is 3.24; 2nd 2.10; 3rd 1.42; 4th is 1:1. Hard to say what is best for your car but I bet your 1st gear ratio is nowhere near the 4.69 in the 2018 automatic so perhaps the 3.73you have today is ok. Unless you have a team of Ford engineers looking at your horsepower, torque, power band, etc. you can throw a lot of money trying to figure out the best combination. If you really want to make your car faster just buy a better set of tires and leave everything else alone. My humble opinion.
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Old 01-02-2018, 07:16 AM   #34
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11-14 Stock 6r80 1st gear is 4.17. Assuming tire height is the same on both cars, you have:

4.69 X 3.55 = 16.6495

4.17 x 3.73 = 15.5541

15.5541/ 16.6495 = about 7% more gear on the 18 in 1st gear.

i'm also not certain you have the 6 speed ratios correct there, because at least on the 11-14 5.0 5th was the 1:1 gear. Doesnt make sense to me to have a 6 speed if 4th is 1:1 ... basically just means you have 2 overdrives then, and you're missing out on an acceleration / performance gear.
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Old 01-02-2018, 07:27 AM   #35
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Absolutely positive about the gear ratios. The new MT82-D4 does have two overdrive gears.

"For 2018, the Ford Mustang GT’s MT82 gets brand-new gear ratios to make full use of the more-potent, 460-horsepower Coyote V8. It’s dubbed the “MT82-D4” for its direct-drive fourth gear (the version in the outgoing Mustang GT had a direct-drive fifth), and its duality of overdrive gears ought to help bring down engine speed during highway cruising. (Despite this, the EPA’s fuel economy ratings for the Ford Mustang GT manual have not budged relative to 2017.)"
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