Dishonest dyno shop - Mustang Evolution

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Old 01-27-2018, 08:41 AM   #1
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Dishonest dyno shop

I think my local Dyno Shop is playing tricks on me, to get me to buy an in house tune from them.

I own a 2012 GT, 6 speed manual. I ran it stock on their dyno and got 364 HP, 312 TQ. Thats right on for a 2012 GT. So I thought ok cool, my Stang is running great.

Then the Mod Bug hit, and I decided to get a tune. I went with BAMA, because my V6 is tuned by them and it picked up 11 HP. Well the first BAMA run made 354/330. Great TQ and HP gains up to 5800 RPMS, where it lost power compared to stock. So I emailed BAMA,
They had me do datalogs, and we went through 3 revisions of the tune. All with almost the exact numbers +/- 2-3 HP and all dropping off at 5800.

So I thought, ok, maybe BAMA just doesn’t do a great job. So I did research and decided to go with AED. Interestingly, my AED tune, which had cleaner datalogs than BAMA (no knock, more advanced timing), and pulled waaaay harder than the BAMA tunes, showed 353 HP and 322 TQ with power drop off at - you guessed it - 5800 RPM. Same numbers as the BAMA tunes, and drop off at 5800 again. So the same peak HP and an almost identical TQ curve. From a better tuner. 🤨🧐

I think the shop is doing something during the pulls to fudge the numbers in their favor. Like not giving it enough throttle, or otherwise playing with the graphs. Just seems highly suspicious to me that four different tunes (from 2 companies) would show the almost the same numbers and the exact same pattern of drop off at 5800. Especially when almost everyone I’ve read/talked to says they’ve gained HP with AED compared to stock.

Just feels like something fishy is going on here....

Your thoughts?

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Old 01-27-2018, 09:13 AM   #2
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Take it to the track and see what your mph is. Dyno sheets are for old men with 800hp GT500s that can't even run 10s.

But... would not be the first dishonest shop. Go get a second dyno to do it, usually for just a few pulls its not expensive.
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Old 01-27-2018, 10:02 AM   #3
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LOL! I know, I just wanted to see improvement LOL.
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Old 01-27-2018, 10:45 AM   #4
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I like to see the shape of the dyno curve more than the numbers, but the fact that your numbers appear consistently off is interesting. What you're saying is not uncommon though. I hate to spend other people's money, but i agree that a second dyno may be worth a look.

Or, if you're decent in excel, plot the Lb/min MAF reading against RPM for each datalog you've taken. It should look shockingly similar to your HP curve.
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Old 01-27-2018, 10:58 AM   #5
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Consistently off, and at 5800 RPM...something is happening, I think they may be messing with me.
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Old 01-27-2018, 11:34 AM   #6
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Like others have said; we need to see the graph and observe the data.

I have always told people that a dyno is a great place to start. Once you have a solid dyno run, data log the car at the "track". You will have real world air/fuel ratios. This will allow you to truly dial the engine for the best possible performance available.

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Old 01-27-2018, 11:56 AM   #7
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Ok: here are the BAMA ones. Shop forgot to email me logs from AED tune.


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Old 01-27-2018, 02:05 PM   #8
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if I was smart enuf to fudge #'s I would be smart enough to not mess them both the same.
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Old 01-27-2018, 02:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Mud View Post
if I was smart enuf to fudge #'s I would be smart enough to not mess them both the same.
Right? But don't you think it's a LITTLE strange that all 4 tunes have almost identnical #s?
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Old 01-27-2018, 02:41 PM   #10
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The dyno is not calibrated properly is my guess. I had a shop tell me with:

Cobrajet manifold
5" CAI
Shorty headers + catless H-pipe

That i was making 402 whp and 400 wtq reving to 8000. Anyone who knows the tiniest, slightest bit about a 5.0 motor knows that those numbers make exactly 0 sense. I had those bogus dyno sheet laying around somewhere for ****s and giggles, but i probably threw it away.
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Old 01-27-2018, 05:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
The dyno is not calibrated properly is my guess. I had a shop tell me with:

Cobrajet manifold
5" CAI
Shorty headers + catless H-pipe

That i was making 402 whp and 400 wtq reving to 8000. Anyone who knows the tiniest, slightest bit about a 5.0 motor knows that those numbers make exactly 0 sense. I had those bogus dyno sheet laying around somewhere for ****s and giggles, but i probably threw it away.
I think the calibration is fine. Stock made exactly what it should have. Why the drop off at 5800, and less HP, with 4 other tunes, is what has me worried.
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Old 01-27-2018, 10:04 PM   #12
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I'll elaborate my thoughts. Stock my car made 380 / 352 on this same dyno. So going to a cobrajet yielded me 20 whp and almost 50 wtq? Dynos do not measure HP, they calculate it, if the calibration is not correct, the numbers will be off.

It is possible ... yet unlikely, that they managed to get it right the first time, but wrong every subsequent time. OR, like some dyno shops, they just never actually bother to calibrate it. Every single time a vehicle goes on a dyno, an RPM signal should be established so you know the tach pickup is correct. If they just put your car on the rollers and start going, you have a greater chance of your numbers being fudged.
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Old 01-27-2018, 11:28 PM   #13
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Oh, yeah. 20 HP for all those mods is not right. LOL.

At the dyno shop, they usually start it, do some regular style/speed accelerating through the gears, then back down to like 3K or so and keep it there for a bit. Then they nail it.

I'm just stumped why both AED and BAMA drop off at 5800.
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Old 01-28-2018, 08:51 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
I'll elaborate my thoughts. Stock my car made 380 / 352 on this same dyno. So going to a cobrajet yielded me 20 whp and almost 50 wtq? Dynos do not measure HP, they calculate it, if the calibration is not correct, the numbers will be off.

It is possible ... yet unlikely, that they managed to get it right the first time, but wrong every subsequent time. OR, like some dyno shops, they just never actually bother to calibrate it. Every single time a vehicle goes on a dyno, an RPM signal should be established so you know the tach pickup is correct. If they just put your car on the rollers and start going, you have a greater chance of your numbers being fudged.
Yep, been told many times now (and finally started listening to ppl as I hit my late 20s lol) that the dyno should not be a measure of the car's performance but a tool to get it dialed in. They all read a little different anyway. As I mentioned earlier, take the car to a dyno tuner to really get it locked in, and then go to a track and see what your mph is. I've seen PLENTY of dick waving with dyno sheets and the car is a "turd" relatively speaking actual performance wise.
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Old 01-28-2018, 10:30 AM   #15
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I knew a shop once who deliberately tuned his dyno super low, like cars making 700 whp on a dynojet would make like 450 whp on his. He liked to brag that he was just a better tuner and could make 450 whp work better against someone with more horsepower or something stupid like that.
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Old 01-28-2018, 09:36 PM   #16
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Lame.
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Old 01-29-2018, 10:43 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaGT12 View Post
Lame.


I think I figured out their crap.
They were using STD correction for my baseline, then SAE for my runs.

I went to another dyno shop and had them run 2 pulls stock and 2 with the BAMA tune (AED will be dynoed later)....using SAE, I baselined 360 whp and 359 whp, then 369 whp and 371 whp tuned. So I gained 10-11 whp.

BUSTED!


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Old 01-29-2018, 10:53 AM   #18
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Hmm... the corrections should still be a percentage change, so it would seem like the whole run should be up or down, not a specific RPM region? Like it shouldnt actually change the shape of the graph.

Are you at Altitude there in NM?
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:01 AM   #19
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Volt --


Let me rephrase that.
The other shop, using SAE, showed spot-on baseline numbers and good gains with the tune. Also there was NO drop off at 5800, like the other shop. Gains through the WHOLE RPM range!


I'm not sure what they were doing, but it wasn't right whatever it was.

Also, what would being at Altitude affect, just curious?
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:57 AM   #20
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I think, upon further review , that the first shop is highly suspect.
The smoothing factor is different on every single run. Hmmm.
When I had them dyno my AED tune, it was exactly the same as my BAMA tune. Really? Exact same numbers from 3 BAMA tunes (Race V1 and V2, Performance V2) and an AED tune?

I find that hard to believe.
I honestly think somehow they are playing me.
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:37 AM   #21
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At a glance, you could find the max, min, and average Lb/min your MAF recorded on each of those datalogs. You'd have to try to trim those logs to just the WOT section (and this still tells us nothing about the powerband), but it may help shed some light.
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Old 02-02-2018, 05:43 AM   #22
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You keep saying the power is dropping off at 5800, but to me it looks like it starts to drop at 6700ish like any other stock manifold coyote. Your curve looks pretty normal.

The numbers are still suspect though, you shouldn't be consistently losing hp with multiple different tunes, especially if your logs look good with no knock.

The only other thing i can think of is they aren't correcting for weather conditions, or the correction isn't set up correctly.
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:03 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noldevin View Post
You keep saying the power is dropping off at 5800, but to me it looks like it starts to drop at 6700ish like any other stock manifold coyote. Your curve looks pretty normal.

The numbers are still suspect though, you shouldn't be consistently losing hp with multiple different tunes, especially if your logs look good with no knock.

The only other thing i can think of is they aren't correcting for weather conditions, or the correction isn't set up correctly.
Post #7, top dyno graph. Look where the blue HP line crosses the red right after 5500, he definitely lost power compared to stock *according to that graph.
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:15 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Post #7, top dyno graph. Look where the blue HP line crosses the red right after 5500, he definitely lost power compared to stock *according to that graph.
Maybe I misunderstood "dropping off", usually I associate that with an actual downward trend rather than just being lower than the previous graph.

Either way, something is off here. I don't necessarily think the OP should be getting noticeably different numbers from each tune (the 3 bama tunes i'd especially expect to be the same as each other)
But he shouldn't be losing hp from a tune.

Do we know if all the runs were in the same gear?
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:30 AM   #25
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The gearing is a valid point as well, but same as the correction factor, it should affect the whole graph right? Maybe im thinking about "percentages" wrong, but i would expect the entire curve to shift up or down, not be an actual different shape.

My guess is still just a bad Tach pick up so the HP is not being calculated properly. The Dyno measures torque and calculates HP and if the tach is not reading the RPM correctly, it will skew the HP numbers.
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Old 02-02-2018, 08:59 AM   #26
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I unfortunately do not know the gear the runs were performed in.
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Old 02-02-2018, 11:45 AM   #27
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So here's something interesting.

I looked at the dyno shop's facebook page. Lots of 1-star reviews.
I messaged a couple people on facebook. One guy said that they went to tune his car, and kept getting cyl 4 and 7 misfires, and was told the engine needed to be opened and rebuilt. He took it to a different dyno shop, they flashed back to stock, retuned his car, and there were no issues. His car's still running like a champ.

One guy, who works at the Ford dealership, said that he took his Mustang there for a dyno tune, and they royally fu*ked up his engine. It blew a headgasket after their tune, and he had to have it repaired at the dealership. Car had been running fine before the tune.

Another guy said this: "A few weeks back, they had a Dyno Day. Every single car on the dyno that day, about 15 in total, from Civics, to Challengers, all made significantly less HP than rated by the factory. I also took my car to them for a tune - 2011 GT. They couldn't properly tune my car and told me I needed new upstream sensors because readings were off etc and that I needed a new clutch. I went with another tuner and no issues. Upstream sensors were fine. I also had the dealership look at my clutch and they said it was fine."


So I think this shop is just a ****hole of bad business, trying to make a buck off everyone, rather than providing honest service.
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Old 02-02-2018, 03:09 PM   #28
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Well, i stand corrected then. Sounds like they were up to some shady ****.
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Old 02-02-2018, 05:21 PM   #29
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Another guy just texted me about that shop:

"Went in for a Termi-swap in my 2003 Mach 1. Was doing dyno numbers before they tuned it. While turning, they called me, said it put a rod through the block. Took it to another shop and they pulled the tune and highlighted all the incorrect numbers. there were TONS of errors. Then I posted on forums and everyone pointed the same stuff out.
Others have had the same problem. I’m not the only one. They just will never own up to it. The entire time they were trying to get me to put one of their turbo systems in it and I didn’t want turbo."
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