New England Dragway June 8th - Hellcat against Super Snake - Page 3 - Mustang Evolution

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Old 06-08-2016, 10:48 PM   #71
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The times are pretty consistent. The only way you are going to find more time with the power and gearing you have is with a transbrake. You may be able to launch with at a higher RPM. Your 60 foot time can come down a bit, but that comes with learning the car.

I also think you are running a manual trans (I could be wrong). If so, those little shift times add up.

I'm not bashing you by any means. You put down a good pass. I am always looking for improvement though.

Were there any traction issues?

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Old 06-08-2016, 10:57 PM   #72
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So here is the low down.

1. The Hellcats are making 1100hp at the crank and over 900hp at the wheels and are identical to each other. They have internal mods to the engines as well as bolt on mods (aftermarket intakes, aftermarket pulleys, aftermarket pistons, head work, etc). So these are not kitty Hellcats. Bastards. They have aftermarket drive parts as well (driveshafts, half shafts, 3.90 gears, etc). Additionally, they were able to jam 305/35R19's in the wheel wells....so much for Challengers not able to put on big tires....myth BUSTED.

2. The auto simply kicked as. That 8 speed auto is a force to be reckoned with. The 6 speed didn't have to shift past 3rd gear. They both have 3.90 gears, and the damn manual didn't have to grab 4th to make the end!!! Son-*****!! Meanwhile, with my 3.73's and the MT82 I'm grabbing 4th and literally dying about 75 feet from the finish when I hit my rev limiter because I need to hit 5th to finish. F$*K'''''. So I just end with the rev limiter puking. When I put on the 305/40R18's I was hoping the 1.2 inch higher tire would get me to the end at 127 - 128mph without needing 5th. It doesn't. I need to throw away the M/T's I bought and need to buy 305/45R18's. Then I will finish over 130mph in 4th. It's expensive to learn.

3. My shifting throughout the night was way too soft. I do have 2015 Shelby Super Snake CSM#6 which is the world's lowest number 50th Anniversary Super Snake. So, I didn't want to miss a gear or worse I didn't want to go from 3rd to 2nd in a missed gear. So I was shifting like granny. That last video I finally decided to shift hard and ran a 11.25mph which would have beat the faster Hellcat because I had him off the line with R/T.

4. I never brought the tires below 20lbs....call me a chicken. Additionally, the damn rev limiter maxes out at 4500rpm. WTF. I could have launched at 6000 and still had traction. I should have put the tires to 15lbs....shut off the launch control....hit the gas until the rev limiter was running at 6800rpm and dumped the clutch at the starting line....but the Shelby is too precious to me. The clone however will be ABUSED when Hellcats are next to me.

So, long story short....thank you for Diehard coming for taking vids. Awesome to meet you buddy. Additionally, we had another person who trolls the board show up as well and he may post some vids (he was a really nice troll!!!!). But, the SS goes back to being a garage queen because I just got a large pallet from Shelby today with a lot of parts for the clone. So, it's time to build the damn thing and start kicking some Hellcat ***....no matter how modified they are. If I have to climb to 2000hp I will to kick all the Hellcat *** I can.

Love my friends with the Hellcats....but time to create a dominating monster.
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Old 06-08-2016, 11:04 PM   #73
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It sounds like you already know every problem and how to overcome it.

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Old 06-08-2016, 11:09 PM   #74
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It sounds like you already know every problem and how to overcome it.
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I'm always willing to listen and learn. I think I know what to do, but please feel free to tear apart the 11.25second slip. That was the best I can do with the car as it's set up. The 60ft time wasn't great, but I think that was because I wasn't willing to launch harder. But, believe me...I will listen to anyones thoughts on all of this.
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Old 06-08-2016, 11:11 PM   #75
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Oh ya....the engine on the clone needs to be dyno'd. I'm simply shifting about 100rpm before the rev limiter on the Shelby. That is probably no where near the proper torque curve. I probably should be shifting somewhere in the mid 6000 range. I'm shifting around 7000. So, I'm probably losing a few tenths by not know the true torque curve of the motor.
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Old 06-08-2016, 11:14 PM   #76
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I'm always willing to listen and learn. I think I know what to do, but please feel free to tear apart the 11.25second slip. That was the best I can do with the car as it's set up. The 60ft time wasn't great, but I think that was because I wasn't willing to launch harder. But, believe me...I will listen to anyones thoughts on all of this.
You honestly addressed every issue I would have given you. I would have changed the launch control RPMs, but that is putting a lot at risk in terms of breakage.

I can't wait to see what you do with the clone.

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Old 06-08-2016, 11:16 PM   #77
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Yea if u lose I'm trading in my mustang!!!! No pressure!!!👍🏻
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Sorry Rosariors3....they had almost 300hp on me at the wheels. They came to a knife fight with a couple of Colt M4's. However I am going to return with a Howitzer and take back the crown when the Clone is complete.
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Old 06-08-2016, 11:16 PM   #78
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Oh ya....the engine on the clone needs to be dyno'd. I'm simply shifting about 100rpm before the rev limiter on the Shelby. That is probably no where near the proper torque curve. I probably should be shifting somewhere in the mid 6000 range. I'm shifting around 7000. So, I'm probably losing a few tenths by not know the true torque curve of the motor.
You should be able to feel when the power evens out or drops out.

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Old 06-08-2016, 11:20 PM   #79
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You should be able to feel when the power evens out or drops out.
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Simply not enough seat time. Towards the end of the night I was feeling the pull of the car dying out around 6400. However, knowing the torque curve would have helped a lot since the next highest gear needs to be met with good torque. The clone will have a dyno chart so I won't be guessing. I'm certain with more time in the Shelby I would figure out the torque curve, but I don't want to put it through that kind of abuse (although it probably would handle it in stride).
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Old 06-08-2016, 11:25 PM   #80
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You're right, seat time and a bit of experimenting is all you need. Once you are dialed in and know the car you can dial the car in.

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Old 06-09-2016, 01:12 AM   #81
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Sounds like those 3.73's are not the way to go on the clone. With the whipple on there you might want to do 3.55 or even leave the 3.31's. I myself just bought a whipple 2.9 and my car came with and still has 3.31's. I plan on leaving them. At one point before I bought the blower I considered 3.73 but I'm glad I didn't.
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Old 06-09-2016, 01:46 AM   #82
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Sounds like those 3.73's are not the way to go on the clone. With the whipple on there you might want to do 3.55 or even leave the 3.31's. I myself just bought a whipple 2.9 and my car came with and still has 3.31's. I plan on leaving them. At one point before I bought the blower I considered 3.73 but I'm glad I didn't.
I'm not going to disagree there.

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Old 06-09-2016, 03:02 AM   #83
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So here is the low down.

1. The Hellcats are making 1100hp at the crank and over 900hp at the wheels and are identical to each other. They have internal mods to the engines as well as bolt on mods (aftermarket intakes, aftermarket pulleys, aftermarket pistons, head work, etc). So these are not kitty Hellcats. Bastards. They have aftermarket drive parts as well (driveshafts, half shafts, 3.90 gears, etc). Additionally, they were able to jam 305/35R19's in the wheel wells....so much for Challengers not able to put on big tires....myth BUSTED.

2. The auto simply kicked as. That 8 speed auto is a force to be reckoned with. The 6 speed didn't have to shift past 3rd gear. They both have 3.90 gears, and the damn manual didn't have to grab 4th to make the end!!! Son-*****!! Meanwhile, with my 3.73's and the MT83 I'm grabbing 4th and literally dying about 75 feet from the finish when I hit my rev limiter because I need to hit 5th to finish. F$*K'''''. So I just end with the rev limiter puking. When I put on the 305/40R18's I was hoping the 1.2 inch higher tire would get me to the end at 127 - 128mph without needing 5th. It doesn't. I need to throw away the M/T's I bought and need to buy 305/45R18's. Then I will finish over 130mph in 4th. It's expensive to learn.

3. My shifting throughout the night was way too soft. I do have 2015 Shelby Super Snake CSM#6 which is the world's lowest number 50th Anniversary Super Snake. So, I didn't want to miss a gear or worse I didn't want to go from 3rd to 2nd in a missed gear. So I was shifting like granny. That last video I finally decided to shift hard and ran a 11.25mph which would have beat the faster Hellcat because I had him off the line with R/T.

4. I never brought the tires below 20lbs....call me a chicken. Additionally, the damn rev limiter maxes out at 4500rpm. WTF. I could have launched at 6000 and still had traction. I should have put the tires to 15lbs....shut off the launch control....hit the gas until the rev limiter was running at 6800rpm and dumped the clutch at the starting line....but the Shelby is too precious to me. The clone however will be ABUSED when Hellcats are next to me.

So, long story short....thank you for Diehard coming for taking vids. Awesome to meet you buddy. Additionally, we had another person who trolls the board show up as well and he may post some vids (he was a really nice troll!!!!). But, the SS goes back to being a garage queen because I just got a large pallet from Shelby today with a lot of parts for the clone. So, it's time to build the damn thing and start kicking some Hellcat ***....no matter how modified they are. If I have to climb to 2000hp I will to kick all the Hellcat *** I can.

Love my friends with the Hellcats....but time to create a dominating monster.
1. I find it odd that those modded Hellcats were running times that are consistent with what a stock Hellcat runs on drag radials.
2. It's not too late to sell the clone car and purchase another one that is equipped with an automatic transmission.
I agree with Oxford. Leave the stock gears in the clone. At least until you figure out which would be the proper ratio for the the setup that you intend to use.
And don't you dare throw those M/T's away!!! Those are your "practice" tires. Don't worry, they wear out fast.
3. I can't say that I blame you for not driving the car harder... I have about 1/10th of what that SS cost invested in my car. And it makes me cringe every time that I abuse it... but I do it anyways. I can only imagine what that would feel like times ten! Lol.
With that being said, I think that your car had a 10 in it last night.
And you do have a better than average reaction time. I noticed that on your last trip to the drag strip. On the street, you would have given that Hellcat hell.
4. Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

That's the spirit with the clone... Break the *****g thing if that's what it takes to win!


You did good in my opinion Medwards.. Those Hellcats are a tough nut to crack, in a straight line. Those cars are ideal for that sort of work, whereas yours is more suited for the corners. And, hopefully, you will have the best of both worlds when the clone is completed.
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Old 06-09-2016, 06:10 AM   #84
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Sounds like those 3.73's are not the way to go on the clone. With the whipple on there you might want to do 3.55 or even leave the 3.31's. I myself just bought a whipple 2.9 and my car came with and still has 3.31's. I plan on leaving them. At one point before I bought the blower I considered 3.73 but I'm glad I didn't.
^^^^Agree.

However, I may run the 3.73's between now and when I put the SC on the clone. I think with the stock 430hp and the 3.73's I'm going to see an improvement in ET over the 3.31's.

But, when it gets the SC I do agree that higher gears will likely help the ET. I would have liked to try 3.55's on the SS with a higher launch RPM. We'll see when the clone is being built. It'll be fun to see the differences with different gears.
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Old 06-09-2016, 06:29 AM   #85
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2. It's not too late to sell the clone car and purchase another one that is equipped with an automatic transmission.

hahahaha...unfortunately I'm a manual type of guy.

With that being said, I think that your car had a 10 in it last night.

That last run showed me that I likely had a very high 10 in the car as set up. Lower tire pressure, high launch RPM and getting through the gears quicker would likely have done it.

You did good in my opinion Medwards.

TU!

I'm pretty psyched to start on the clone, but my wife reminded me that I have her and my daughter that should be my primary focus; a business to pay attention to; and it's summer. Sigh...she's right. Being a good dad and husband is going to delay the eventual Hellcat *** kicking.
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Old 06-09-2016, 06:39 AM   #86
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Thought this pic would be enjoyed. I marked the tires with tap before running. I guess I was launching pretty hard if you look at the location of the tape after the night ended. The one on the rim is a little tough to see but it's there.

You've got to click on the image to open if for it to be up straight. I don't know why my iphone pics are sideways sometimes on the forum.
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Old 06-09-2016, 08:23 AM   #87
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I think u did really good. For the hellcat having 300 more horse you weren't that far off the time. Honestly I think if u launched like you were supposed to and real beat the snot outta the car you would be right there with them it better. I really don't think you need to do much more other than seat time.


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Old 06-09-2016, 09:30 AM   #88
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R,

So who is going to get your car? It would be a shame to see that at Car Max.
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Old 06-09-2016, 04:00 PM   #89
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More Live Action from medwards' Shelby SS

First one is a solo practice run.



2nd vid is against a Mustang GT of unknown upgrades.


OH Yeah...found my GoPro wire.
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Old 06-09-2016, 05:03 PM   #90
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R,

So who is going to get your car? It would be a shame to see that at Car Max.

Lol never!!!


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Old 06-09-2016, 05:30 PM   #91
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Not for the Shelby, but for the Clone.

I see one of these being ordered shortly for 4th gear use. 5.0 COYOTE HIGH OUTPUT PLATE SYSTEM (50-250HP) W/ 10LB BOTTLE

I refuse to ever let another 8 speed automatic Hellcat walk around me in fourth gear again.
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Old 06-09-2016, 06:10 PM   #92
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How much power is this Super Snake supposed to have? Looking at the trap speed from time slip and the DA at the track, I would guess around 600-625 at the crank.

Also, those times for the Hellcats are absolutely pathetic for a 900+ wheel car. I have personally watched several stock Hellcats run 10's at 128 - 132 MPH in similar DA.

I have also witnessed a Hellcat (A8) with just injectors, E85 tune and a pulley run high 9's at 138 mph. That car from what I remember only made like 770 to the wheels.

Regardless of the Hellcats, judging from the videos and time slips, it looks like medwards has a pretty good handle on that SS.
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Old 06-09-2016, 09:02 PM   #93
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None of us were launching the cars at what they were capable of. I was launching at 4500 and had absolutely no wheel spin. The way it felt, I easily could have launched at 5000rpm or higher. That would have brought the 60' down quite a bit. Additionally you can see the front of my car dropping a lot between shifts. I was trying to be nice to the car in between gears even though it's built to take the pressures of speed shifting. Additionally I was taking it all the way to the rev limiter prior to shifting. I imagine that's not optimal. The car seemed to stop pulling hard around 6400 so I'm guessing that's where the torque curve on a dyno output would have had me shifting. So I probably lost time doing that. I'm guessing the super snake was capable of a lot lower ET time. How much I don't know but being in the car and knowing what I was doing to hold back, I would guess there was at least another second that could have been removed from the ET.

I agree that the Hellcats couldn't have that much power. However, they did have more power than me since they would walk by me when I was in 4th (although my car was still pulling hard in that gear all the way to the end). I'd have to see the dyno on those cars to be certain. I do know that they had spinning issues off the line so that might have something to do with it.
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Old 06-09-2016, 09:24 PM   #94
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How much power is this Super Snake supposed to have? Looking at the trap speed from time slip and the DA at the track, I would guess around 600-625 at the crank.
It's supposed to have 825hp. I haven't had my car dyno'd.

"Even More Power! The stock 2015-2016 GT Mustangs come with an awesome 435 Horsepower and 400 lb/ft of Torque from the factory, but after installing a Whipple Stage 1 Supercharger on your Pony you will be planting well over 825 Horsepower and 640 lb/ft of Torque to the pavement." Whipple Mustang Stage 1 Supercharger WK-2620B (15-16 GT) - Free Shipping

"The industry leading Whipple S550 system makes up to 825 (+390hp) engine horsepower and 640 (+240ft/lb) foot pound of torque on 93 octane fuel! Nearly a 90% power gain with bolting the Whipple SC with it's unique Roval 132mm billet throttle body and high flow injectors!"
https://whipplesuperchargers.com/ind...product_id=368
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Old 06-10-2016, 12:21 PM   #95
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So here is the low down.

2. The 6 speed didn't have to shift past 3rd gear. They both have 3.90 gears, and the damn manual didn't have to grab 4th to make the end!!! Son-*****!! Meanwhile, with my 3.73's and the MT82 I'm grabbing 4th and literally dying about 75 feet from the finish when I hit my rev limiter because I need to hit 5th to finish. F$*K'''''. So I just end with the rev limiter puking. When I put on the 305/40R18's I was hoping the 1.2 inch higher tire would get me to the end at 127 - 128mph without needing 5th. It doesn't. I need to throw away the M/T's I bought and need to buy 305/45R18's. Then I will finish over 130mph in 4th. It's expensive to learn.
I think you better take a closer look at your numbers.
If I have your numbers correct...
4th gear = 1.315
Rear Gears = 3.73
with 305/40R18 = 27.6" dia (86.7" circum.)
@6,000 RPM, speed = 100.4 mph [104.8 mph] (113.2 mph) {118.1 mph}
@6,500 RPM, speed = 108.8 mph [113.6 mph] (122.6 mph) {127.98 mph}
[If tires = 305/45R18 AND 3.73 gears]
(If rear gears = 3.31 with existing tires)
{If tires = 305/45R18 AND 3.31 gears}

On the Hellcat Manual...
3rd gear = 1.19 (Mustangs 3rd gear = 1.686)Big difference!
Rear Gears = 3.70 (according to you they are 3.90 but Hellcat comes with 3.70. All other V8 Challengers are 3.90.)
with 305/35R19 = 27.4" dia (86.1" circum.)
@6,000 RPM, speed = 111.1 mph
@6,500 RPM, speed = 120.4 mph
@7,000 RPM, speed = 129.6
I'm not so sure the Black Manual Hellcat ever went fast enough to come out of 3rd. (Also, it should be noted that his 4th gear is 1:1. The same as your 5th gear.

The Auto Hellcat was likely in 6th gear when he hit his 128 mph mark.
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Old 06-10-2016, 02:38 PM   #96
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I think you better take a closer look at your numbers.
If I have your numbers correct...
4th gear = 1.315
Rear Gears = 3.73
with 305/40R18 = 27.6" dia (86.7" circum.)
@6,000 RPM, speed = 100.4 mph [104.8 mph] (113.2 mph) {118.1 mph}
@6,500 RPM, speed = 108.8 mph [113.6 mph] (122.6 mph) {127.98 mph}
[If tires = 305/45R18 AND 3.73 gears]
(If rear gears = 3.31 with existing tires)
{If tires = 305/45R18 AND 3.31 gears}

On the Hellcat Manual...
3rd gear = 1.19 (Mustangs 3rd gear = 1.686)Big difference!
Rear Gears = 3.70 (according to you they are 3.90 but Hellcat comes with 3.70. All other V8 Challengers are 3.90.)
with 305/35R19 = 27.4" dia (86.1" circum.)
@6,000 RPM, speed = 111.1 mph
@6,500 RPM, speed = 120.4 mph
@7,000 RPM, speed = 129.6
I'm not so sure the Black Manual Hellcat ever went fast enough to come out of 3rd. (Also, it should be noted that his 4th gear is 1:1. The same as your 5th gear.

The Auto Hellcat was likely in 6th gear when he hit his 128 mph mark.
You are absolutely correct about the manual hellcat. He did not have to shift out of 3rd. Also, the auto has a much better run than me during the second length of the track since his shifts are much closer in gear height so that car stays in a more optimal range in the torque curve while shifting. I go from third to fourth and that is a large difference in gearing which gives him the advantage until I get my rpms back up. You can clearly see this effect watching the video. When I shift from 3rd to 4th he starts to walk around me. That's why I need the nitrous for 4th to offset the drop in torque during the intial shift into 4th. But I need higher tires since I'll just limit at 127mph further from the trap lights unless I shift to 5th. Bastards....both of them. Bastards.

On my car you're doing a great job with the numbers....but you forgot the effect of centrifugal force on tires that have air pressure removed. They growth with high rpms. Also the functional limit of my rev limiter is 7000rpm (don't know why...but that's what it maxes out at).

7000rpm would change your calc for my combination from 108.8 to 117.2mph. So that's part of it.

So, yes they start at 27.6" (([305mm x 0.40]/25.4)*2+18inch). But with a 4.8" sidewall ([305mm x 0.40]/25.4) on a fully inflated tire, when one drops air pressure and then spins the tire at high rpm (which is the functional redline on the SS) you end up with a trap speed of 127mph because that sidewall has grown to over the height of a 305/45 tire.

This can be proven by the 11.25sec run I did at 127mph. That run finished in 4th gear with the rev limiter puking. Had I gone with the 305/45R18 with the calculation you did (NOT accounting for sidewall growth, BUT accounting for 7000rpm), I would have only gone 122mph. I was going 127mph so my tire had to have grown to larger than 5.4" sidewall of a 305/45R18. That's just the fact of reality and shown on the timeslip with my word that I was in fact in 4th gear at the end taching 7k (got no reason to lie).

By my estimate the tire grew to the equivalent of a 305/50R18. That is the variable input that works with the mph I was able to acheive in real life. So, a 27.6" radial appears to have grown to 30" at 7000rpm.

It's estimating that growth factor that is impossible until you run the car. So, I'm pretty certain if I put 305/45R18's I should be able to hit...maybe...130mph due to sidewall growth? Not sure. It's trial and error. Expensive trial and error with the price of M/T radial tires.
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:16 PM   #97
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Yeah, interesting. I tried googling for tire growth but came up empty.

I did come across some good reading at this site...
Techtips - Drag Racing Traction: Tire Guide

You're probably aware of all this stuff but it's all new to me.

One thing they say, "Run as much air pressure as possible in a drag radial, which is normally in the 18- to 22-psi range, much higher than its bias-ply slick counterpart at 12 psi. One thing often overlooked when switching from a bias-ply slick to a drag radial is that if both tires have exactly the same rollout (to achieve the same top end speed), the drag radial has to turn more RPM than the bias-ply slick. This is because the bias-ply slick grows (due to the tread pushing outward from centrifugal force) at the far end of the track while the radial does not (due to its stiffer construction).

You may want to pick out a drag radial with a 1- to 1½-inch-larger diameter than the bias-ply slick if you don’t wish to turn your engine at a higher engine speed (RPM). Drag race DOT-approved street radials weigh more than a comparably-sized drag slick, but the radial construction has such a low rolling resistance that the extra weight is hardly an issue. Tom Kundrik, a Mickey Thompson race technician and drag radial racer himself, says, “Remember, drag radials do not work on all cars. They are very temperamental and require a lot of experimenting and chassis tuning.”


Another thing that got my attention was this statement, "Rear drag tires may need to be screwed to the rim to prevent the wheel from turning inside the tire." Particularly after seeing how much your tires slipped around the rims.
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BTW...I never saw the black (manual) Hellcat do better then you did. I saw him do something like 11.7.
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:50 PM   #98
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The black car ended up doing a 10.89 eventually. He wasn't as experienced so it took him a while.

I know they say they don't grow (even says that on MT's website). They say that the steel bands prevent them from growing. However, I can't explain doing 127mph in 4th gear with a 2015 Mustang GT with 3.73 gears at 7000rpm if they don't grow. We live in the physical world. There has to be some explanation.

I've had a lot of experienced drag racers tell me they experience the same thing I did. I'm not a tire engineer. Just a guy driving a car straight for 1320 feet...and apparently defying the laws of physics according to the tire guys If someone can explain the phenomenon I'm all ears. Until then that's my explanation since I can't come up with anything else.

Oh, and yes using bead locks is a good idea. However, I'm likely going to use glue (which is another accepted practice)(word from the "experts" is that screws and radials are a no-no, but I've heard of a lot of folks doing it...I'm not going to). I marked the tires the first time out just to see if they did in fact move. They moved for the first 2 runs then didn't appear to move anymore. I'm not sure if they moved initially because there was something on the rim and now they're seated or what. I'm going to mark them every time out from here on as I change the black Mustang in "the clone" and as it's HP goes up I'll keep an eye on them. If they start moving again I'll dismount, glue and remount.

Last thing, after all the silliness of guys picking on each other and lying in the pits, we all grabbed a drink tonight. Those Hellcats really have 770hp at the wheels (one was dyno'd in Loudon NH). So they don't have 1025hp at the crank. That's why the races were so close. Additonally, they both complained about not picking up really any speed even with the increased hp over stock. They are having problems hooking up and are going to start changing things in the suspension to try to get more traction at the start.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:57 PM   #99
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Some things, that can't be easily explained, I like to just chalk up as "magic".

Have you physically measured the tires to verify that the advertised dimensions are correct?
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Old 06-11-2016, 12:11 AM   #100
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Quote:
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Have you physically measured the tires to verify that the advertised dimensions are correct?
That's not a bad idea so I just did. 27.6" on the nose. The mystery continues. I'd love to have someone explain this to me because short of strapping a go pro on the rear quarter, I have no idea how to test my theory. But the numbers and the math indicate that the tire has to be growing.
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Old 06-11-2016, 01:11 AM   #101
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Well, if the circumference measurement is also correct, then the only logical explanation is that the tires are indeed growing when they are spinning at high speed.
They wouldn't have to grow much to account for the 5 mph difference.
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