Will High Flow Cats throw CEL? - Mustang Evolution

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Old 08-27-2014, 08:33 AM   #1
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Will High Flow Cats throw CEL?

I am hoping to install Kooks long tube headers with their short mid pipe with high flow cats. Pennsylvania is a California emisssions state but as far as I know as long as the car passes visual and the OBD II test than it passes inspection. Will the high flow cats throw a CEL that will have to be tuned out and if they do throw the code, once the CEL is tuned out will the car pass the OBD II test?

Thanks, I just dont want to drop $1,000+ and my car not pass inspection.
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:59 AM   #2
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The Kooks "Green Cats" are expensive but are the only ones on the market that probably won't through a CEL. But I have seen it in one circumstance.

Your best option is to still have the rear o2's turned off but have your readiness codes still ready for emissions purposes. There are only a handful of tuners that can perform this though.
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:25 AM   #3
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What do you mean by "readiness code?" Will the emissions check with the OBD II detect that the CEL has been tuned out because the rear O2 sensors are turned off?
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:52 PM   #4
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No it won't provided your tuner knows what he's doing. There is a way to trick the system.
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:59 PM   #5
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So you're saying that I'd have to have someone tune it out and that a custom BAMA tune that I would order for the headers and midpipe wouldn't correct the CEL for the rear O2 sensor?
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:01 PM   #6
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I don't know about Pennsylvania but in California long tube headers are, typically, not allowed because they change the location of the 02 sensors. The car won't pass the visual inspection so it won't even make it to the "plugged in" portion of the inspection.

I'd look into that before purchasing the headers...
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:09 PM   #7
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That's what I'm doing now by asking here on this forum. I dont think Pennsylvania is as strict as California on the visual part. As long as they see cats they will pass you on the visual as far as I know. The only thing I'd be worried about will be whether or not it'll pass the OBD II test since the rear O2 sensors will be tuned out so the car doesn't give a "Check Engine Light."
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:15 PM   #8
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I'd make damned sure that they aren't as strict as CA on the visual.
Ask around at some emissions test shops if long tubes are allowed.
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Old 08-27-2014, 04:31 PM   #9
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So you're saying that I'd have to have someone tune it out and that a custom BAMA tune that I would order for the headers and midpipe wouldn't correct the CEL for the rear O2 sensor?
What I'm saying is AED, Lund, VMP, and Mike Rousch are just a few that I know that can send you an email tune to correct this. Bama cannot.
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Old 08-27-2014, 05:13 PM   #10
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I have the kooks long tubes with the kooks catted x pipe on my 2014 and I run a bama tune and I don't have a EWL nor have I had any issues with my bama tunes.
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Old 08-27-2014, 05:16 PM   #11
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I have the kooks long tubes with the kooks catted x pipe on my 2014 and I run a bama tune and I don't have a EWL nor have I had any issues with my bama tunes.
What's EWL? Have you had to go through emissions?
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Old 08-27-2014, 06:00 PM   #12
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Have you passed emissions in Pennsylvania? I'm going to be pretty bummed if I can't order long tubes.


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Old 08-27-2014, 06:39 PM   #13
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What's EWL? Have you had to go through emissions?
Engine warning light. No I haven't had to go through emissions my car is a 2014.
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Old 08-27-2014, 06:41 PM   #14
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No I haven't had to go through emissions my car is a 2014.
Are your rear o2's turned off?
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Old 08-27-2014, 06:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntbruncie View Post
Engine warning light. No I haven't had to go through emissions my car is a 2014.

Most people call it the CEL. Check Engine Light.


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Old 08-28-2014, 06:58 AM   #16
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Maybe American Muscle will know the answer to this since they are right outside of Philly?
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:11 AM   #17
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unless you go to an emission testing station that employees a tree hugging nazi, you won't have an issue on the visual inspection, as long as all your sensors read ready at the time of the OBDII test. one luxury we have here in PA is the emission exemption, if you put under 5k miles on your car, you don't have to emissions test, I've owned my mustang since 2011, lol haven't had to do an emissions test yet, but it's looking like I'll have to in 2015, and I now have long tubes and a high flow catted x pipe, so we'll see.......

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Old 08-28-2014, 09:23 AM   #18
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unless you go to an emission testing station that employees a tree hugging nazi, you won't have an issue on the visual inspection, as long as all your sensors read ready at the time of the OBDII test. one luxury we have here in PA is the emission exemption, if you put under 5k miles on your car, you don't have to emissions test, I've owned my mustang since 2011, lol haven't had to do an emissions test yet, but it's looking like I'll have to in 2015, and I now have long tubes and a high flow catted x pipe, so we'll see.......

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I am aware of the less than 5,000 miles exemption. I, however, drive almost 3X that amount in one year so it'd be obvious that I was fibbing.

So, when the shop hooks the OBD II up to the car it will tell them that my rear O2 sensors are off and they'd fail me?
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
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So, when the shop hooks the OBD II up to the car it will tell them that my rear O2 sensors are off and they'd fail me?
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Your best option is to still have the rear o2's turned off but have your readiness codes still ready for emissions purposes. There are only a handful of tuners that can perform this though.
Are you not reading anything I've posted? I've explained to you what to do already.
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Old 08-28-2014, 01:50 PM   #20
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Are you not reading anything I've posted? I've explained to you what to do already.
Yes, I've read what you've posted. I was hoping that there'd be a less P.I.T.A way to do it. I'm probably just going to end up talking to a shop I go to regularly and see what they have to say.

How much is a tune from one of those companies (AED, Lund, VMP, Rousch) going to cost?
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Old 08-28-2014, 01:59 PM   #21
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There is no visual inspection for emissions in PA unless it's a truck over 9000 lbs or pre obd2 as long as your cel isn't on you will be fine my car passes with no problems and I have a off road mid pipe but I have the spark plug non fouler extenders to keep my light off

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Old 08-28-2014, 02:26 PM   #22
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How much is a tune from one of those companies (AED, Lund, VMP, Rousch) going to cost?
not sure about the others, but an AED tune is $250, worth every penny too!



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Old 08-28-2014, 03:28 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Brockman66 View Post
Yes, I've read what you've posted. I was hoping that there'd be a less P.I.T.A way to do it. I'm probably just going to end up talking to a shop I go to regularly and see what they have to say.
How is it a P.I.T.A.? Just get a tune from one of the companies I posted and tell them you need it to pass emissions. Then load said tune and go on your merry way.
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How much is a tune from one of those companies (AED, Lund, VMP, Rousch) going to cost?
Contact them and find out.

---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------

Quote:
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not sure about the others, but an AED tune is $250, worth every penny too!
Absolutely.
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:16 PM   #24
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Have Kooks 1 3/4" & their high flow cats on my 2011. I didn't get a CEL, I got codes.
Had the tuner turn off the 02's ( 05/10/2011 )
This car was due for N.J. inspection July 14, had Kooks " green " cats installed in June.................car passed no issues.
Not sure how it is in Pa., but when they plug into the port here, everything has to be enabled.
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Old 08-29-2014, 01:35 PM   #25
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Have Kooks 1 3/4" & their high flow cats on my 2011. I didn't get a CEL, I got codes.
Had the tuner turn off the 02's ( 05/10/2011 )
This car was due for N.J. inspection July 14, had Kooks " green " cats installed in June.................car passed no issues.
Not sure how it is in Pa., but when they plug into the port here, everything has to be enabled.
Are Kooks "green cats" the same as their high flow cats or are they different? Do you still have the part number?
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Old 08-30-2014, 04:33 AM   #26
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[QUOTE=Brockman66;2076630]Are Kooks "green cats" the same as their high flow cats or are they different? Do you still have the part number?[/QUOTE]
.
The part # for the standard high flow cat is 6028-cx-2011, the part # for the green cat is
" Product ID: 6028-CX-2011-GREEN
2011-2014 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 3" Stainless Steel GREEN Catted X Pipe 5.4/5.8L "
.............................These are $ 400.00 more than their standard cat, pretty sure they are not the same.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:12 PM   #27
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[QUOTE=1 Alibi 2;2077011]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brockman66 View Post
Are Kooks "green cats" the same as their high flow cats or are they different? Do you still have the part number?[/QUOTE]

.

The part # for the standard high flow cat is 6028-cx-2011, the part # for the green cat is

" Product ID: 6028-CX-2011-GREEN

2011-2014 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 3" Stainless Steel GREEN Catted X Pipe 5.4/5.8L "

.............................These are $ 400.00 more than their standard cat, pretty sure they are not the same.

Thanks a lot for the product number. I'll be ordering these shortly along with the long tubes.

Thanks for all the help guys.
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Old 08-31-2014, 04:24 AM   #28
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[QUOTE=Brockman66;2077165]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Alibi 2 View Post


Thanks a lot for the product number. I'll be ordering these shortly along with the long tubes.

Thanks for all the help guys.
.
Glad I could be of some help.
Contact Kooks before you order & verify these will fit in your application.
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:35 AM   #29
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Good info here. I've been reading a lot of threads regarding the Kooks Green Cats. I can see where this would solve the issue of "catalyst efficiency" codes, but would it also help p0133 and p0153 codes ( o2 slow response) codes? Would these cats also allow the post cat o2 sensors to be turned "on" instead of being rendered useless by aftermarket tunes?
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Old 08-31-2014, 11:02 AM   #30
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^^^^

Great question!
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Old 08-31-2014, 11:28 AM   #31
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Brockman66, as for my personal experience...In July I had bbk lts installed along with bbk hi flow catted xtube on my 2010 GT. Had a BAMA tune for that setup. I ran the 93 race tune exclusively. After a week or so, I got a cel and it was for the cats running below the 80% efficiency threshold. BAMA sent another tune which took care of that problem. That tune basically turned off the post cat o2 sensors, so no cel after that. Then a couple of weeks ago, the pcm started throwing p0133 and p0135 codes (slow o2 response from both banks). Awaiting an updated tune for that, and hopefully that will be the end of my problems. There are numerous threads in many Mustang forums regarding these issues. It is common to see CELs when messing with the stock exhaust system. I've seen many articles where the problem has not be resolved through tuning, and the Kooks green cats may be the only option open. So, "there goes another $1000" to get my car as close to legal as possible, or return everything back to stock (ugh!). The whole idea with going with my setup was I thought that if I did things this way, I wouldn't have to worry about CELs (keeping the o2 sensors and cats.) There are also plenty of people running similar setups and apparently they don't have these issues. It just depends on the individual car I guess. Hope this helps in making your decisions.
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Old 08-31-2014, 11:39 AM   #32
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Thanks for the write up. It seems like this is going to be more of a hassle than I wanted it to be.

This brings to mind another question, though. Are the Kooks "Green Cats" any better than the stock ones?
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Old 08-31-2014, 12:01 PM   #33
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In terms of performance (HP)? I could be naive, but I'm guessing there is something in the design that makes them less restrictive, but my understanding is, overall catalytic converters don't take up that much horsepower to begin with. I'm sure in the early days they did, but I would imagine that over the decades since their introduction, design improvements have made them less important to horsepower output. One reason that I went with the bbk catted xpipe was for ease of installation. I just didn't want the shop to have problems with the installation.
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Old 09-01-2014, 04:23 AM   #34
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With the standard Kooks X pipe on my 11, the 02's were turned off to avoid the codes. The " green " X pipe allows the o2's to be turned on, which allowed me to pass inspection.
As far as performance, Kooks may be able to comment on hp differences between the standard & " green " cats, I have no comparison data.
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Old 09-01-2014, 07:10 AM   #35
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Smile Emissions in PA

It's not a visual check but they do plug in, power down the ECM and verify no codes, that data is then uploaded to State of PA.
Only 6 counties have emissions, 3 around pittsburgh, Beaver, Allegheny and Maybe Washington and 3 around Philly.
From what I can tell the issue comes when you use the device/software that tells the ecm the rear o2 sensors are working.
somehow this is a high flow detected and that trips the CEL.
As long as the ecm is getting reasonable values from the o2 sensors it should trip a cel. I don't think they will look at o2 sensor position and such during and fail it for that. Hell aftermarket converters used as replacements may not put the sensor in the factory location.
So you could get an address that is not in these counties and register the car there, or you could drive less than 5K a year and get it exempted. Some things to consider!
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