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Old 04-19-2015, 10:53 AM   #71
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Ain't nothing hard headed here....I'm just a little more intelligent on how motors actually work than most folks.

To say something is overthinking the tuning process shows me you don't actually tune your stuff.

Like I said, big difference in ME and WE.

Let's just assume for a second here that I'm a guy that understands the lingo. I'm that guy that calls you out at the track for talking up your buddies ride while you ride shotgun. I'm not new to this.
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Old 04-19-2015, 10:55 AM   #72
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Ain't nothing hard headed here....I'm just a little more intelligent on how motors actually work than most folks.

To say something is overthinking the tuning process shows me you don't actually tune your stuff.

Like I said, big difference in ME and WE.
Yes your are bc the mods you did, do not do anything for power. Thats what I'm trying to explain to you.

Catback and cai are pretty much useless untill you start getting high up in #'s with the coyote.

Getting rid of the cats, and manifolds make power on these cars. Not the catback and cai.

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Old 04-19-2015, 11:03 AM   #73
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Dude, you can fart in front of the intake and make 7 hp. 7 hp is the difference in a few degrees of air temp and humidity. 7 hp is the difference in a degree or two of timing. That's how irrelevent 7 hp is.

I don't have to act like a bad *** man, I've done my time. Turned my thoughts from doing bad things to smart things. But I also don't listen to dudes talking theory about other peoples stuff. So unless you can speak intelligently on the actual tuning process and not what your dad and uncle are doing, the door is on the left.
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Old 04-19-2015, 11:07 AM   #74
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Dude, you can fart in front of the intake and make 7 hp. 7 hp is the difference in a few degrees of air temp and humidity. 7 hp is the difference in a degree or two of timing. That's how irrelevent 7 hp is.

I don't have to act like a bad *** man, I've done my time. But I also don't listen to dudes talking theory about other peoples stuff. So unless you can speak intelligently on the actual tuning process and not what your dad and uncle are doing, the door is on the left.

---------- Post added at 10:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 AM ----------

Dude, you can fart in front of the intake and make 7 hp. 7 hp is the difference in a few degrees of air temp and humidity. 7 hp is the difference in a degree or two of timing. That's how irrelevent 7 hp is.

I don't have to act like a bad *** man, I've done my time. Turned my thoughts from doing bad things to smart things. But I also don't listen to dudes talking theory about other peoples stuff. So unless you can speak intelligently on the actual tuning process and not what your dad and uncle are doing, the door is on the left.
This isn't other people's stuff. So for 1 you can stop talking to me like I'm some little kid.
I'm 25 married with 2 kids.
Run my own business also

So that's what you can do to begin with.

2. I told you, back when my car was stock. my car made 378 stock.
With addition of a offroad x pipe, cai, and tune made 401. Thats a 22hp gain. And it came from the cats being deleted with a tune.

Only power mods you have are the tune. Sure you will pick up some #'s messing with cam timing but do not expect alot. Try deleting the cats and playing with the cam timing.

There is plenty of timing tables to mess with and plenty of limiters you Wil have to get passed.
On normal coyote to spin to 7800+ you have to swap over to the boss software.

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Old 04-19-2015, 12:45 PM   #75
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And like I said, I was doing this before you were driving, so yes, you are still wet behind the ears. I figured you for that 19-25 age group as the attitude and perceived experience is right in that range.

I don't care about your business, your personal life, your kids, your dog, whatever.....has ZERO relevence to the matter of discussion. Hell, I'm a 40 year old retired Army dude with his own business and enough sense to know I don't want kids.....what's that got to do with the price of tea in China? Nothing.

As I said, not my first rodeo tuning. I know all about limiters, modifiers, multipliers, multiple timing tables, etc. I was probably beta testing for EFILive before you even had a drivers license. My stuff gets tuned by me. I'm th guy at the track looking at other guys tunes to see whats wrong. I'm the guy with the mechanical engineering background that understands the physics and chemistry of tuning a motor.

So, now that we have resumes out there and balls hanging out, do you tune your junk or let someone else do it. ME or WE.....big difference.

Argue with the rest of the kids, I'm well beyond that nonsense.
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Old 04-19-2015, 12:59 PM   #76
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So if your so intelligent, why did you go to bama for your tune?
Of all the tuners around you choose bama.

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Old 04-19-2015, 01:08 PM   #77
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Because I really didn't feel like screwing with the car and buying new software to tune for a pretty minimal gain. Plain and simple, didn't want to mess with it. I'm not about to reinvent the wheel when the wheel is already round just to make it 1% rounder.

Short answer....I was being lazy and like to dedicate my time to other things, which there are plenty that are higher on the priority list.

Now, do we want to stay on this path or speak like actual intelligent adults here? We can both talk stupid to each other or understand that neither of us is automotively retarded.
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Old 04-19-2015, 01:17 PM   #78
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epic pissing match we have here lol. Rapinator seemingly has some knowledge but he is arrogant about it for sure, used to annoy me at first, but now I just roll my eyes at him when he starts popping off
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Old 04-19-2015, 01:20 PM   #79
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I understand not wanting to tune it yourself to begin with. I honestly understand that.
I'm just curious what made you choose bama?
Not insulting in any way just a honest question on why you went with them.

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Old 04-19-2015, 01:24 PM   #80
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I understand not wanting to tune it yourself to begin with. I honestly understand that.
I'm just curious what made you choose bama?
Not insulting in any way just a honest question on why you went with them.

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Lol that's what I thought too.


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Old 04-19-2015, 01:43 PM   #81
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Honestly, I went with ease of use and cost.....violated my own rule....powerful, reliable, inexpensive, pick 2.

I can get the 7015's at wholesale, so I looked at doing it with Bama as just an easy path of doing some fine tuning on the car, which proved ineffective.

I've never been a fan of mail order tunes or remote tuning as there are things you do not see and hear in the data logs. You can't cut plugs to check the fuel ring and see if it's REALLY running rich. You can't see if the timing is REALLY close to maxed out. You don't hear things that make you go, "that's not quite right". You also can't make adjustments right here, right now, on the spot, fix it, flash it, do it again.

When I tune it myself I may drive the car and make 6 changes to the tune over the course of that drive. I may see the AFR's just a bit lean/rich and change the commanded lambda from .80 to .81 to .82, etc to get it right where I want. I may see / feel the stumble at 2900 RPM's and work on that one spot and see what tables and modifiers are causing it.

But, that's when I'm trying squeeze everything out of the car. This isn't that car. What I wanted here was better driveability down low (didn't happen), better power in the midrange (minimal gain which I attribute more to ditching the resonator in the exhaust), and top end that wasn't being hampered by torque management.

Wasn't looking for 7800 RPM's, wasn't looking for a car right on the ragged edge of blowing up, simply wanted it uncorked, which is what you normally get with mail order tunes.

Now, they advertise 30 hp with nothing but CAI, cat-back, and tune. A little on the high side? Yeah, for sure, I've NEVER seen that on ANY vehicle unless it was just ridiculously conservative from the factory. 15-18 hp is pretty normal on something like that. 7 hp and matches the baseline SCT curve point for point?....come on now, I call BS. Like I said, 7 hp is the difference in air temp, humidity, a degree of timing, or your buddy eating beans the night before and standing in front of the car on the roller.

The only time you see 30 hp gains is increasing the actual air mass into, and out of, the motor. 30 hp tends to be what you see each time you add 1 psi of boost. You can usually figure what a motor will make on boost just by looking at what it does NA. If you have 380 hp to the wheels with it NA, you actually have a motor running on ~14.2 psi of boost.....which translates to about 27 hp per lb of boost....like I said, you normally see around 30 hp per psi of boost.
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Old 04-19-2015, 02:06 PM   #82
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My realistic expectation of the car, using SAE correction was 407 hp at the tires. Uncorrected should have been right at 398-399 hp, given the temp and humidity (correction factor was 1.03). Like I said, 15-18 hp is normal for those mods on a car and a motor moving 41 - 42 lbs min of air at atmospheric pressure.
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Old 04-19-2015, 02:27 PM   #83
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378 - stock
401 - offroad x, cai, tune
409 - boss intake, offroad x, cai

Then after built motor,
440 - boss intake, offroad x, JLT, catback, 8,000rpm, e85, 11.5 compression, slight head work.

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Old 04-19-2015, 02:32 PM   #84
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For the record I do not like email tunes either. I'm guilty of running them at the beginning. I also lost a few valves due to a email tune 4 weeks after pulling it off the dealership lot. So yes I'm not a fan. ( then lost stock Motor on a 200 shot about a year ago ) ring glands went.

also had a hard time with a few shops with power droping at 6800 b4 also. They would not mess with cam timing. It's a **** load of crap you have to deal with untill you find someone who knows what they are doing with these cars

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Old 04-19-2015, 02:34 PM   #85
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Here is what the car did UNCORRECTED.


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Old 04-19-2015, 02:39 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapinator126 View Post
378 - stock
401 - offroad x, cai, tune
409 - boss intake, offroad x, cai

Then after built motor,
440 - boss intake, offroad x, JLT, catback, 8,000rpm, e85, 11.5 compression, slight head work.

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Yup, and those are what you'd expect, especially on the E85. How big of hit did you take in torque with the Boss intake? Usually the volume increase slows the intake charge and hits you on the bottom end but picks up the top end.

I don't mind mess with the cam timing, that's actually where I'll spend most of the time.
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Old 04-19-2015, 02:46 PM   #87
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Yup, and those are what you'd expect, especially on the E85. How big of hit did you take in torque with the Boss intake? Usually the volume increase slows the intake charge and hits you on the bottom end but picks up the top end.

I don't mind mess with the cam timing, that's actually where I'll spend most of the time.
I lost 14 ft lbs. With the boss over the stock manifold.
E85 made up for that.
Now it's 440/400 reads a little low due to the 4.10's now vs the 3.31's also.

401 and 383tq
Then it was
409 and 369 tq. Both of these were on stock motor and 93 octane


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---------- Post added at 01:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 PM ----------

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I lost 14 ft lbs. With the boss over the stock manifold.
E85 made up for that.
Now it's 440/400 reads a little low due to the 4.10's now vs the 3.31's also.

401 and 383tq
Then it was
409 and 369 tq. With boss Both of these were on stock motor and 93 octane


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Old 04-19-2015, 02:53 PM   #88
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Yeah, the gears usually bump up the torque, but bring down the hp because you lose the wheel speed. It gets spinning faster but doesn't have the top end.....the time slips show the real story there though. Going from 3.31's to 4.10's probably cut a full tenth off the 60', if not a tenth and a half. That should show up as 2 - 3 tenths on the big end.
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Old 04-19-2015, 02:57 PM   #89
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Yeah, the gears usually bump up the torque, but bring down the hp because you lose the wheel speed. It gets spinning faster but doesn't have the top end.....the time slips show the real story there though. Going from 3.31's to 4.10's probably cut a full tenth off the 60', if not a tenth and a half. That should show up as 2 - 3 tenths on the big end.
Couldn't tell you on the times. Car was built to be a roll car. 40,60,80.

That is changing though. Will be swapping to a built 4r70w or a glide towards end of the year. And will be launching on a 200 and kicking the 2nd stage of 200 in around the 1/8th. For a total of 400. Just will have to play with it once the trans swap goes in.

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Old 04-19-2015, 03:24 PM   #90
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Yeah, all my stuff is setup for 1/8 mile. 4.30's and 4.56's on the cars and 3.73's on the truck (only 5200 RPM's to play with).

The cars are on turbo only (Chevelle used be a nitrous car with the 406 in it). The truck runs on the 4718 and 2 kits. I use the small kit just to spool the charger on the line and the 2nd kit I bring in at 1.8 - 2.2 seconds depending on what the track is holding. Both kits bring in just over 400 hp. I'm out of fuel at 1551 hp right now. It has enough injector for 1800 hp, but my injection pumps can't keep up with any more demand. As soon as I bring in any more pulse width the pressure noses over and I lose the top end.
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Old 04-19-2015, 03:33 PM   #91
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That's nutts, 1/8 would be nice also. I would like to get it high 8's on the bottle. In the 1/4.

I'm swapping to a 5 gallon cell in the trunk. With a external pump. Will be C16.
Going to try and play with a timing twister. So i wont have to swap between tunes or just run on the n20 tune like i currently do. Only one I have found for coil packs is from vampire though.

Only thing that sucks with C16 is it destroys 02's and the wide bands for these cars are not cheap. But that's what you get for running a leaded oxygenated fuel.

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Old 04-19-2015, 03:40 PM   #92
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What did your Chevelle run on the bottle? Small hit or big?

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Old 04-19-2015, 03:43 PM   #93
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Same with the fox it's a street car now.
It use to have a 454 with a 600 hit back when I was little. It was a all out track car though back then ran 8's.
Also had a 383 with 2 kits in it at one time which in turn got put in this. 86 firebird.


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Old 04-19-2015, 03:57 PM   #94
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On 2 kits it went 9.40's on the 1/4 with the 406. Never had it on the 1/4 with the 496 as a nitrous motor. It's a pig at 3800 lbs, all steel body (except the hood and front bumper). Only had it on the 1/4 with 4718 that is on the truck now. That turbo was WAY too small for that motor and was killing power....even with the 1.25 housing it was choking the crap out of the exhaust side. Had 30 psi on the gate and was only getting 8 psi on the cold side of the intercooler. Going to the G-trim PT101 is exactly what it needed.

It's going 5.40 1/8th's as it sits right now on 29x10.5's. It's about time to pull the motor out of that and freshen it up; it's been getting thrashed on for over 4 years on this build.

The '88 goes 6.1X on 93 octane and 22 psi on 275/50/15's.

The truck, at 7200 lbs, goes 6.30's when it hooks. I have 305/50/18 ET Streets on all 4 corners on that.
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Old 04-19-2015, 04:04 PM   #95
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What happened to this forum? I haven't been on the forum for a few months and I just keep reading bad info all over the place.

Rapinator, the JLT's are making a little power on these 2015's actually, I've seen anywhere from 6-12hp, some claim more but this is what I've seen. Higher IAT's but that's merely at idle with no movement.

Catback are netting 3-5 HP and that's being optimistic. We made 457 SAE with a JLT and full ARH setup. Going from 387 stock.
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Old 04-19-2015, 04:07 PM   #96
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We use Pro Dyno for all our cars tuning needs.
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Old 04-19-2015, 07:42 PM   #97
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I honestly do not see how they are getting dam near 460 from full exhaust and intake on 93 octane.

I have ran a couple 15's with full exhaust and let's say if that's a 460hp car idk what's going on.

So we should see 15's in the 550 range with off the shelf cams, cobra jet and e85 then.

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Old 04-19-2015, 08:03 PM   #98
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I'd have to see the logs of it. You only get so much power for a given air mass. It's just chemistry....you don't get more power without more air. 460 at the tires on pump gas would need 48 - 51 lbs/min of air. If you're not seeing that, the numbers are off.
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Old 04-20-2015, 03:26 AM   #99
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I honestly do not see how they are getting dam near 460 from full exhaust and intake on 93 octane.

I have ran a couple 15's with full exhaust and let's say if that's a 460hp car idk what's going on.

So we should see 15's in the 550 range with off the shelf cams, cobra jet and e85 then.

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Dan at Pro Dyno was surprised himself. The very next car made 425 with Stainless Works headers, off road x and corsa catback. We put our car back on the rollers afterwards just to reconfirm. We'll put it on another dyno just to see what the difference is.

The CJ simply doesn't fit in the bay of the car without a new hood and adj engine mounts. I'd test it but we're putting our 2.9 Whipple on here shortly.

Pro Dyno is a phenomenal tuner, he's just not big into marketing on forums and such. But he doesn't just tune Mustangs or just street cars, they tune a few competitive drag cars and road racing cars.
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Old 04-20-2015, 03:27 AM   #100
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I will Caveat and say that every car with ARH off road exhaust system has been making 445 and up on the rollers. Rev Auto did tune a setup exactly like ours and made 455 SAE I believe.
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:06 PM   #101
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I will Caveat and say that every car with ARH off road exhaust system has been making 445 and up on the rollers. Rev Auto did tune a setup exactly like ours and made 455 SAE I believe.

Those are good numbers! The exhaust note sounds pretty rough though. Do they have headers that will mate up to a 2.5 diameter catback?


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Old 04-21-2015, 03:12 PM   #102
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So how does this happen?
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Old 04-21-2015, 04:04 PM   #103
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Those are good numbers! The exhaust note sounds pretty rough though. Do they have headers that will mate up to a 2.5 diameter catback?


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Yessir, the actually bottleneck down to 2.5 for the axleback.
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Old 04-21-2015, 04:48 PM   #104
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So how does this happen?

Great question
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:55 PM   #105
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Remember, there are 3 things that don't lie in the auto world......

Data logs, dyno sheets, and time slips. You see any of those? You can tell the real story from the data.

When I see 3 cars, none with tags, and a track with nobody at it, I think one thing.....Photo Op!

Just my .02.....I've posted my "real world" results.
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