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Old 11-22-2015, 03:06 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by natestang07 View Post
I believe performance wise pushrods are cheaper than modulars

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๐Ÿผand ๐ŸŒฝ fed coyote.

---------- Post added at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

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This is what Rap meant^

Yes sir


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Lol wrong again! It's funny how someone pointed out earlier in this discussion that the Mustang is actually cheaper than the Camaro! Also Chevy hasn't always been up for performance, Ford dominated racing in the 1960s. You can Google it, it's not hard to fine. I just wanted to prove you wrong.


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Old 11-22-2015, 04:07 PM   #72
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I guess we are arguing that old push rods are cheaper? The new LT1 crate appears to be over $2k more than a coyote crate. That's 30% more for less than 30% performance!

Just stirring the pot, carry on.


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Old 11-22-2015, 04:14 PM   #73
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Not only are LS/LT motors easier to work on, but dollar for dollar, you get more from them compared to the coyote motor.


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Old 11-22-2015, 04:32 PM   #74
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Just look at the difference of cam swaps between the two.

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Old 11-22-2015, 04:34 PM   #75
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Sure you have to buy 4 cams versus 1. But if you are already $2k less in, comparing the most modern iterations, a cam swap will still have you in the black versus the LT1


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Old 11-22-2015, 04:40 PM   #76
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But the power number wouldn't even be close.

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Old 11-22-2015, 04:47 PM   #77
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Useless arguing with people who have NO CLUE.

Cheaper to make performance with a LS vs a mod motor.


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Old 11-22-2015, 04:48 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JokerS197 View Post
Lol wrong again! It's funny how someone pointed out earlier in this discussion that the Mustang is actually cheaper than the Camaro! Also Chevy hasn't always been up for performance, Ford dominated racing in the 1960s. You can Google it, it's not hard to fine. I just wanted to prove you wrong.


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You can look all the facts you want on the internet....I don't really care because I was there in what us "Ole Guys" call the Golden Age of Drag Racing", 1959-1974. I started out drag racing with the most competitive car I could afford which at the time was Chevy.........not a Ford. At the end of my drag racing career....I call it a career because I spent every penny I earned on trying to be competitive. When I switched of to my 68-1/2 SS/BA CobraJet and then the B/SM Maverick.....all of my friends told me I was out of my mind to switch to a Ford....the cost of making a Ford go fast was two to three times what it cost to make a Chevy go fast......and I kind of liked being the underdog............
What kind of racing were you thinking Ford dominated in the 60's?
I've been a drag racer since the early 60's and can tell you that GM produced the first Muscle car...the 64 GTO....as for drag racing in the early 60's the GM 409, Ford 401 and Pontiac 421 dominated the drag strip. I'm not going to talk about Pro-Stock...that's another story in it's self.
When I was drag racing my 67 Camaro SS/IA there were probably 20 Chevy's to every Ford and most of S and SS classes pitted together and finding a Ford in the sea of Chevy's was really hard to do.
In the early days NASCAR was a part of NHRA and how many times did Richard Petty win or a Junior Johnson Chevrolet?
In about 6 weeks I'll have a GM car setting right next to my 03 Cobra....the GM will be a daily driver and Cobra will only be driven for fun...on nice days.
Just one last piece of minutiae....Chevrolet built the first V8....288ci.....in 1917 and production lasted until 1918....and it was an OHV V8 unlike the Ford Flathead which built it's first V8 in 1932 and their first OHV in 1954.
Also a little Hot Rod trivia....the old saying in the late 50's was that if you wanted to make a Ford go fast......you needed to put a Chevy in it....I'll stop rambling now.....
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Old 11-22-2015, 04:48 PM   #79
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Maybe so, don't know what they are, have information? Also, I think we'd need to consider delta rather than overall as well, so the LT1 gained x peak and y net HP/TQ and Coyote gained x peak and y net HP/TQ. Would be an interesting comparison to see, I did some quick searching and haven't found many hard facts disputing the differences. Also, NA id expect the higher displacement engine to have an advantage, what are the FI differences. I'd be curious on efficiencies, longevity and conditions under load for extended period of time.

However, I don't really care that much either way. The Coyote has too much to use as it is, so having more would be a waste. Having less at a better price would make more sense. But more sounds cooler.


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Old 11-22-2015, 04:52 PM   #80
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Useless arguing with people who have NO CLUE.

Cheaper to make performance with a LS vs a mod motor.


and fed coyote.

I never claimed to have any clue but if you are already $2k cheaper out of the gate with the newest iterations and that $2k doesnt buy you $2k in raw performance out the door then it would stand to reason that it isn't as simple as pushrods are cheaper for performance, obviously the manufacturers can't market them that way, maybe Chevy just wants more money.

I like when people just say things without bringing facts at all though. I just asked a question. Old technology is cheaper and if we go back to old iterations we can make more power cheaper than the new stuff, that's obvious and can be done anywhere. This current thread is about the new iterations of each, though.


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Old 11-22-2015, 04:58 PM   #81
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I never claimed to have any clue but if you are already $2k cheaper out of the gate with the newest iterations and that $2k doesnt buy you $2k in raw performance out the door then it would stand to reason that it isn't as simple as pushrods are cheaper for performance, obviously the manufacturers can't market them that way, maybe Chevy just wants more money.

I like when people just say things without bringing facts at all though. I just asked a question. Old technology is cheaper and if we go back to old iterations we can make more power cheaper than the new stuff, that's obvious and can be done anywhere. This current thread is about the new iterations of each, though.


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I'm not talking about stock prices.

Give me a 16 camaro ss
And a 16 coyote

5k a piece in mod money. I will have the camaro a lot faster than the coyote.
A few people in here got what I was saying.

I deal with this on a daily basis.


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Old 11-22-2015, 05:01 PM   #82
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The new Car and Driver has THE test on its cover -- GT vs SS.

But if you are already $4k cheaper on the mustang then why can't the mustang get an extra $4k in mod prices? I understand what you are saying but if we are talking pure dollars the mustang should be able to get $9k to the camaros $5k and then the money invested into each would be identical. What does that look like? Maybe the camaro still wins, maybe not. I don't think you can totally discount the initial investment costs.

Edit: and before we go down content paths there is an obvious $2k delta in engine price alone, that's why I pulled crate prices. So at least 2k of that price is in the engine and it would be fair to grant the coyote an extra $2k in mods for that fact.

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Old 11-22-2015, 05:35 PM   #83
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It also doesn't consider you can pick up a used Mustang for a WHOLE lot cheaper than a comparable Camaro. I've had Camaro's and Firebirds before and I can tell you that the grass is not greener over there. It doesn't matter which car you get. Buy what you like and make it what you want. ANYTHING can be as fast as your imagination and the depth of your pockets.


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Old 11-22-2015, 05:56 PM   #84
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The new Car and Driver has THE test on its cover -- GT vs SS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave73 View Post
Buy what you like and make it what you want. ANYTHING can be as fast as your imagination and the depth of your pockets.


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+1


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Old 11-22-2015, 06:57 PM   #85
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Yep I loved my LS2. Very cheap and easy to work on had Ported stock 243 heads, a baby cam, longtubes and a Fast 102 manifold in a heavy 05 GTO made for a solid mid 11 second car with plenty more potential with a bigger cam. The 5.0 coyote has good potential but i felt like forced induction was the best/easiest way to go for the power you get vs. cost. Both have great potential just in different ways. But it just depends on what exactly you want and how much you are willing to spend.

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Old 11-22-2015, 08:17 PM   #86
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You can look all the facts you want on the internet....I don't really care because I was there in what us "Ole Guys" call the Golden Age of Drag Racing", 1959-1974. I started out drag racing with the most competitive car I could afford which at the time was Chevy.........not a Ford. At the end of my drag racing career....I call it a career because I spent every penny I earned on trying to be competitive. When I switched of to my 68-1/2 SS/BA CobraJet and then the B/SM Maverick.....all of my friends told me I was out of my mind to switch to a Ford....the cost of making a Ford go fast was two to three times what it cost to make a Chevy go fast......and I kind of liked being the underdog............

What kind of racing were you thinking Ford dominated in the 60's?

I've been a drag racer since the early 60's and can tell you that GM produced the first Muscle car...the 64 GTO....as for drag racing in the early 60's the GM 409, Ford 401 and Pontiac 421 dominated the drag strip. I'm not going to talk about Pro-Stock...that's another story in it's self.

When I was drag racing my 67 Camaro SS/IA there were probably 20 Chevy's to every Ford and most of S and SS classes pitted together and finding a Ford in the sea of Chevy's was really hard to do.

In the early days NASCAR was a part of NHRA and how many times did Richard Petty win or a Junior Johnson Chevrolet?

In about 6 weeks I'll have a GM car setting right next to my 03 Cobra....the GM will be a daily driver and Cobra will only be driven for fun...on nice days.

Just one last piece of minutiae....Chevrolet built the first V8....288ci.....in 1917 and production lasted until 1918....and it was an OHV V8 unlike the Ford Flathead which built it's first V8 in 1932 and their first OHV in 1954.

Also a little Hot Rod trivia....the old saying in the late 50's was that if you wanted to make a Ford go fast......you needed to put a Chevy in it....I'll stop rambling now.....
Here you go! Since you mentioned NASCAR, I'll just attach that one. If you read what I posted earlier I also mentioned Le Mans race 66-69. It's funny that you mention the GTO, they Plymouth Barracuda also came out before the mustang. They both have something in common, neither one of them stayed in production! Thank you for your input! Click image for larger version

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Old 11-22-2015, 08:26 PM   #87
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You can look all the facts you want on the internet....I don't really care because I was there in what us "Ole Guys" call the Golden Age of Drag Racing", 1959-1974. I started out drag racing with the most competitive car I could afford which at the time was Chevy.........not a Ford. At the end of my drag racing career....I call it a career because I spent every penny I earned on trying to be competitive. When I switched of to my 68-1/2 SS/BA CobraJet and then the B/SM Maverick.....all of my friends told me I was out of my mind to switch to a Ford....the cost of making a Ford go fast was two to three times what it cost to make a Chevy go fast......and I kind of liked being the underdog............

What kind of racing were you thinking Ford dominated in the 60's?

I've been a drag racer since the early 60's and can tell you that GM produced the first Muscle car...the 64 GTO....as for drag racing in the early 60's the GM 409, Ford 401 and Pontiac 421 dominated the drag strip. I'm not going to talk about Pro-Stock...that's another story in it's self.

When I was drag racing my 67 Camaro SS/IA there were probably 20 Chevy's to every Ford and most of S and SS classes pitted together and finding a Ford in the sea of Chevy's was really hard to do.

In the early days NASCAR was a part of NHRA and how many times did Richard Petty win or a Junior Johnson Chevrolet?

In about 6 weeks I'll have a GM car setting right next to my 03 Cobra....the GM will be a daily driver and Cobra will only be driven for fun...on nice days.

Just one last piece of minutiae....Chevrolet built the first V8....288ci.....in 1917 and production lasted until 1918....and it was an OHV V8 unlike the Ford Flathead which built it's first V8 in 1932 and their first OHV in 1954.

Also a little Hot Rod trivia....the old saying in the late 50's was that if you wanted to make a Ford go fast......you needed to put a Chevy in it....I'll stop rambling now.....

Just make sure you get the extended warranty with that Cadillac and don't do anything to void it! Cause your gonna need it!


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Old 11-22-2015, 08:46 PM   #88
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I'm not talking about stock prices.

Give me a 16 camaro ss
And a 16 coyote

5k a piece in mod money. I will have the camaro a lot faster than the coyote.
A few people in here got what I was saying.

I deal with this on a daily basis.


๐Ÿผand ๐ŸŒฝ fed coyote.
Why do you have a mustang? You keep saying camaros are cheap to mod and go fast, but yet you have your mustang modded out.

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Old 11-22-2015, 08:49 PM   #89
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Why do you have a mustang? You keep saying camaros are cheap to mod and go fast, but yet you have your mustang modded out.

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He knows what's up! He is just pissin on your corn flakes!


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Old 11-22-2015, 08:50 PM   #90
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The new Car and Driver has THE test on its cover -- GT vs SS.

He would most likely take a big loss on his car if he sold it; with all the money invested in it. And I believe I read somewhere he is looking at buy a Camaro.
Why are you letting his opinion bother you so much?


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Old 11-22-2015, 09:06 PM   #91
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Just make sure you get the extended warranty with that Cadillac and don't do anything to void it! Cause your gonna need it!


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So why would you say that??????
This will be a DD and I'll feel no need to put any aftermarket pieces on the car or soup it up any more than it is.....464hp and 445lbft of torque will work just fine as a DD along with the 28 mpg+ on the road. It has a bumper to bumper and of 4 years or 50,000 miles, drivetrain is 6 years or 70,000, roadside assistance is 6 years or 70,000 and maintenance is 4 years or 50,000.....
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Old 11-22-2015, 09:16 PM   #92
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You know a decade ago I don't think any of us thought there'd be a 460 horse V6 Cadillac, from the factory.


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Old 11-22-2015, 09:37 PM   #93
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So why would you say that??????

This will be a DD and I'll feel no need to put any aftermarket pieces on the car or soup it up any more than it is.....464hp and 445lbft of torque will work just fine as a DD along with the 28 mpg+ on the road. It has a bumper to bumper and of 4 years or 50,000 miles, drivetrain is 6 years or 70,000, roadside assistance is 6 years or 70,000 and maintenance is 4 years or 50,000.....

Just my experience with Cadillacs.


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Old 11-22-2015, 09:42 PM   #94
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You know a decade ago I don't think any of us thought there'd be a 460 horse V6 Cadillac, from the factory.


Pick your poison.
I didn't know there was a 464hp twin turbo V6 from Cadillac until about 8 weeks ago............16 is the first year and although it doesn't put out 138 hp per litter as the GM 2.0T.........it does come close at 128 hp per litter. The one thing that will be interesting is I've never seen a Cadillac with a 6spd manual.....
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Old 11-22-2015, 09:45 PM   #95
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Just my experience with Cadillacs.


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So by all means please share your experience with me....I'd appreciate any experience a trusted Ford friend can give..............I've only put a deposit on the car and can still back out until it's given a VIN.
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Old 11-22-2015, 09:48 PM   #96
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Only complaint around here is the northstar engines are junk. Which I believe they are not in Cadillacs anymore. I'd also be interested in what Dave has to say.


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Old 11-22-2015, 10:05 PM   #97
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So by all means please share your experience with me....I'd appreciate any experience a trusted Ford friend can give..............I've only put a deposit on the car and can still back out until it's given a VIN.
I know several people that have or have had CTS Vs from both generations. All of them solid cars. From stock V1 to 650 whp V2, not a single one of them have had any mechanical issues at all.

Caddys have been extremely well built since they dumped the junkstar engines. I'm sure the ATS will be no different.
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Old 11-22-2015, 10:05 PM   #98
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Only complaint around here is the northstar engines are junk. Which I believe they are not in Cadillacs anymore. I'd also be interested in what Dave has to say.


Pick your poison.

Well the Northstar engine is junk your right about that. But my parents were Cadillac people until very recently and every one they had was back and forth to the dealer with umpteen problems. A lot of electrical issues, transmission issues, they just weren't reliable. They only buy American Cars and they like luxury cars now they have a Chrysler 300 and likely to buy another. It's not just them it's others I've dealt with too. Most of the problems I've had with GM have been electrical issues.


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Old 11-22-2015, 10:13 PM   #99
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He would most likely take a big loss on his car if he sold it; with all the money invested in it. And I believe I read somewhere he is looking at buy a Camaro.
Why are you letting his opinion bother you so much?


Pick your poison.
Yeah he was looking at buying an 02.

Sadly he has to wait until his mullet is at least 4 inches kind before he can complete the purchase.

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Old 11-22-2015, 10:19 PM   #100
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Yep I loved my LS2. Very cheap and easy to work on had Ported stock 243 heads, a baby cam, longtubes and a Fast 102 manifold in a heavy 05 GTO made for a solid mid 11 second car with plenty more potential with a bigger cam. The 5.0 coyote has good potential but i felt like forced induction was the best/easiest way to go for the power you get vs. cost. Both have great potential just in different ways. But it just depends on what exactly you want and how much you are willing to spend.

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I had the exact setup on my 06 GTO. I do miss its sound.


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Old 11-22-2015, 10:20 PM   #101
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Old 11-22-2015, 10:43 PM   #102
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Well the Northstar engine is junk your right about that. But my parents were Cadillac people until very recently and every one they had was back and forth to the dealer with umpteen problems. A lot of electrical issues, transmission issues, they just weren't reliable. They only buy American Cars and they like luxury cars now they have a Chrysler 300 and likely to buy another. It's not just them it's others I've dealt with too. Most of the problems I've had with GM have been electrical issues.


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Ok, I appreciate the feedback. My 09 Hemi Ram 1500 plagued me from day one with electrical problems although it was a great truck....a lot of miles hauling my drag car behind it.
As for the transmission I'm not overly concerned since it will be a 6spd Tremec and as far as the electrical I haven't heard anything bad about them...I guess we will see. I can say that after driving the ATS-V around PIR I was hooked, and driving it on the highway was just outstanding.........especially with the Mag-Ride Control..........If Ford had a car like this I would have looked and made a choice.......I'm not a fan of the SHO Taurus which won't continue in 2016 and the Fusion really hasn't changed since I had my 09. GM just seems to have more of a choice when it comes to performance vehicles and Ford really only has the Mustang or Focus ST(V)...........IMHO
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Old 11-22-2015, 11:02 PM   #103
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So by all means please share your experience with me....I'd appreciate any experience a trusted Ford friend can give..............I've only put a deposit on the car and can still back out until it's given a VIN.
My neighbor just had the Cadillac dealer here buy back his brand new car as a lemon. It had been in the shop 6 times for electrical gremlins throughout the car, mainly in the dash for the nav and radio, but almost everywhere esle too.
He literally would try to turn off the radio and the nav would ask for a destination, or try to change stations and the nav would lock up............just small examples. The brake lights and head lights refused to consistently work --- nice, huh?
They changed his whole head unit three times, taking apart the dash and steering wheel each time, which made the creaks, snaps and groans from the dash worse each time.
He owned it six months, three of which it was in for service.
ATS, non V.
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Old 11-22-2015, 11:13 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Guard 5.0 View Post
My neighbor just had the Cadillac dealer here buy back his brand new car as a lemon. It had been in the shop 6 times for electrical gremlins throughout the car, mainly in the dash for the nav and radio, but almost everywhere esle too.
He literally would try to turn off the radio and the nav would ask for a destination, or try to change stations and the nav would lock up............just small examples. The brake lights and head lights refused to consistently work --- nice, huh?
They changed his whole head unit three times, taking apart the dash and steering wheel each time, which made the creaks, snaps and groans from the dash worse each time.
He owned it six months, three of which it was in for service.
ATS, non V.
Thanks for the information....I guess we will see what happens. Electronics are the one thing I don't care to get involved with. In my 14 TrakPak the Sync never worked and the dealer couldn't resolve it so I just never used it.
So...what kind of car is your friend going to purchase this time around?
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Old 11-23-2015, 12:40 AM   #105
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Okay, C&D gave the Camaro the nod and it looks like a real nice car. GM makes some nice products, no doubt. But, for me personally, (and I'm not putting anyone else down if they do otherwise), anything after model year 2009, GM won't get a penny of my money. Everyone on this board and those who aren't, were forced to bail GM out some years back, and they STILL didn't pay the remainder of what they owe back. Their excuse to the government is "oh well, you invested in a company, you take a risk of losing money". Uh, . . this is TAXPAYER MONEY, if it wasn't for the taxpayers, GM wouldn't exist. EVERY taxpayer should be able to walk into a GM dealership and get a $5,000 discount on any vehicle they want, just as a "thank you" for bailing their a**es out. Look, it's none of my business what anybody buys, the Camaro, the GMC trucks and the Cadillac's are fine looking vehicles, but where's the rest of the taxpayer funded bailout money?
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