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Old 12-16-2017, 11:58 AM   #1
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2018 preliminary performance numbers

One of the perks of having James Gordon (Tuning by James) as your tuner is he LOVES his job and will talk your ear off about projects he is working on. On the phone with him the other day during my datalog session and he was telling me about the two 2018 GTs they just got in this week.

They have a 10 speed auto and a stick. So far only messing with the auto. Showroom floor stock it put down 400 to the wheels and ran a 12.2 at the 1/4 mile down in Florida at sea level. They were working on it on the dyno yesterday and took it to the track last night. Next time I talk to him I'll get some results. Thought it would be kinda cool to share. He was saying with just a tune and some tires it was going to be well into the 11s. Crazy.
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:02 PM   #2
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When you compare the performance of the “muscle” cars from the late 60’s and early 70’s that have been so idolized, there simply is NO comparison to the acceleration, 0 to 60, and 1/4 mile times of today’s fleet.
A low 12 second street car right off the showroom floor would have been unheard of in 1969. Even my dream car (69 or 70 Boss 302) BARELY broke into the 14’s!!

DRAG TESTS 1960 - 1972
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Old 12-16-2017, 04:51 PM   #3
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Yep, the "Golden Age" of cars is now. And enjoy it while it lasts.
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Old 12-16-2017, 10:04 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by scottydsntknow View Post
Yep, the "Golden Age" of cars is now. And enjoy it while it lasts.
This may have been said in the late 60s and early 70s muscle car era. They were at the peaks of their technology.
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Old 12-16-2017, 11:06 PM   #5
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I may be pulling numbers out of my ***, but i think Lund had one with tune and tire trapping damn near 120 mph ... stock with a tune and tire trapping 120? That's mind blowing, i cant wait to see these things with bolt ons. Trapping frikkin 130 all motor with bolt ons lol.
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Old 12-17-2017, 12:15 AM   #6
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So ... now that both the sixth gen Camaro SS and 2018 Mustang GT are faster than the GT350 in the quarter mile, what happens to the GT350?
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Old 12-17-2017, 09:11 AM   #7
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So ... now that both the sixth gen Camaro SS and 2018 Mustang GT are faster than the GT350 in the quarter mile, what happens to the GT350?
.
Nothing.
It will continue to do what it was intended to do, be good on a road course.
.
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Old 12-17-2017, 12:27 PM   #8
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.
Nothing.
It will continue to do what it was intended to do, be good on a road course.
.
This, 0 Fs given about 1/4 performance.
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Old 12-17-2017, 12:54 PM   #9
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Drag racing=fast cars. Road Racing=fast drivers. :O
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Old 12-17-2017, 02:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
I may be pulling numbers out of my ***, but i think Lund had one with tune and tire trapping damn near 120 mph ... stock with a tune and tire trapping 120? That's mind blowing, i cant wait to see these things with bolt ons. Trapping frikkin 130 all motor with bolt ons lol.
Beefcake ran 11.1 @ 121 last week. Tune and tire.

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Old 12-18-2017, 11:42 PM   #11
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For you young guys and even myself This is the golden age of HP and I don't disagree with what you are saying, but give a little respect to some of us ole guys who grew up driving the 60's and early 70's muscle cars. Some of us were even lucky enough to have drag raced in in the early days of NHRA in SS, SM, MP, and any number of other NHRA classes and the cars were fast...for their time. We didn't have fuel injection, computers, weather stations, good tires and chassis engineering had just started to come into its own. We had to figure things out by the seat of our pants because dyno's were hugely expensive and few and far between...most of us couldn't afford them anyway. If someone had told us street motors would be making 1000/1500HP we would have looked at you and either thought you were drunk or high on Pot! We didn't have electronics that could tune a car with push of the "enter" key...so to compare the old muscle cars with todays is like comparing Heidelberg Beer to Munchen Hofbrau Original Beer.
In 1976 I raced my wife's new off the show room floor 76 455 Trans AM Pontiac with 3.23's, 4spd, and stock tires to 13.9's in the quarter...yes, I did have a tune and Hooker headers along with 74 SD exhaust and no CAT...Oh, one last thing is the my 70 Maverick...in my pictures...was at the 79 Winter Nationals and raced in B/SM with a top loader 4spd and mostly stock Boss 302...it wasn't a record holder although did run 10.3's at 130mph...on 10-1/2" wide slicks and a single 735cfm carburetor.
One last thought...in 1968,69,70...when you bought a 70 Z28, you drove it from the showroom floor directly to your garage, did some tuning, put on some decent headers, put some slicks on 8" wide steel Corvette wheels and were turning mid 12's during your first outing...just try slapping some 15" 1970 wide oval tires on the back of 18 Mustang GT and see how fast it negotiates the 1/4 mile...if you didn't live through that time period you can't really understand what we accomplished with almost no technology at all...compared to today you are so lucky to have the factories pushing the HP war way more than they ever did back in the Muscle Car Era...and you have the technology to build 8 second SS Mustangs and Camaro's...you guys don't really know how lucky you are!!!!
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Old 12-19-2017, 12:30 AM   #12
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Old 12-19-2017, 07:55 AM   #13
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and we are not as old as dirt......

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Old 12-19-2017, 08:38 AM   #14
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Old 12-19-2017, 09:49 AM   #15
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Olerodder,
I meant no disrespect for the drag racers in the 60’s and 70’s. What you and they accomplished, for the time, was amazing.
I only meant that, stock for stock, today’s new cars are amazingly fast compared to all of the muscle cars that are going for BIG $$’s at auction now.
Just take a look at this loooooong list of performance cars from our — yes “our” — era:

DRAG TESTS 1960 - 1972

there’s only a few faster than my little stock 2015 Mustang GT convertible — and most MUCH slower — and the ones that could complete with the new Mustangs right off the showroom floor are legendary indeed....427 AC Cobra anyone?
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Old 12-19-2017, 10:50 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
I may be pulling numbers out of my ***, but i think Lund had one with tune and tire trapping damn near 120 mph ... stock with a tune and tire trapping 120? That's mind blowing, i cant wait to see these things with bolt ons. Trapping frikkin 130 all motor with bolt ons lol.
And we're not talking a small, light weight car either. Pretty awesome.
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Old 12-19-2017, 11:06 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by olerodder View Post
For you young guys and even myself This is the golden age of HP and I don't disagree with what you are saying, but give a little respect to some of us ole guys who grew up driving the 60's and early 70's muscle cars. Some of us were even lucky enough to have drag raced in in the early days of NHRA in SS, SM, MP, and any number of other NHRA classes and the cars were fast...for their time. We didn't have fuel injection, computers, weather stations, good tires and chassis engineering had just started to come into its own. We had to figure things out by the seat of our pants because dyno's were hugely expensive and few and far between...most of us couldn't afford them anyway. If someone had told us street motors would be making 1000/1500HP we would have looked at you and either thought you were drunk or high on Pot! We didn't have electronics that could tune a car with push of the "enter" key...so to compare the old muscle cars with todays is like comparing Heidelberg Beer to Munchen Hofbrau Original Beer.
In 1976 I raced my wife's new off the show room floor 76 455 Trans AM Pontiac with 3.23's, 4spd, and stock tires to 13.9's in the quarter...yes, I did have a tune and Hooker headers along with 74 SD exhaust and no CAT...Oh, one last thing is the my 70 Maverick...in my pictures...was at the 79 Winter Nationals and raced in B/SM with a top loader 4spd and mostly stock Boss 302...it wasn't a record holder although did run 10.3's at 130mph...on 10-1/2" wide slicks and a single 735cfm carburetor.
One last thought...in 1968,69,70...when you bought a 70 Z28, you drove it from the showroom floor directly to your garage, did some tuning, put on some decent headers, put some slicks on 8" wide steel Corvette wheels and were turning mid 12's during your first outing...just try slapping some 15" 1970 wide oval tires on the back of 18 Mustang GT and see how fast it negotiates the 1/4 mile...if you didn't live through that time period you can't really understand what we accomplished with almost no technology at all...compared to today you are so lucky to have the factories pushing the HP war way more than they ever did back in the Muscle Car Era...and you have the technology to build 8 second SS Mustangs and Camaro's...you guys don't really know how lucky you are!!!!
I wish I would have experienced this time. In my time, we thought it was awesome when Ford finally put 200+ horsepower back in the Mustang V8's lol.
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Old 12-19-2017, 02:12 PM   #18
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Olerodder,
I meant no disrespect for the drag racers in the 60’s and 70’s. What you and they accomplished, for the time, was amazing.
I only meant that, stock for stock, today’s new cars are amazingly fast compared to all of the muscle cars that are going for BIG $$’s at auction now.
Just take a look at this loooooong list of performance cars from our — yes “our” — era:

DRAG TESTS 1960 - 1972

there’s only a few faster than my little stock 2015 Mustang GT convertible — and most MUCH slower — and the ones that could complete with the new Mustangs right off the showroom floor are legendary indeed....427 AC Cobra anyone?
I guess disrespect was not the right word. It's just really hard for me to make any comparison with the 60's and 70's because technology has come so far in electronics, suspension, tires, wheels, the use of aluminum and composites.
The reason for the huge prices on the early Muscle cars is the lack of, and the fact that my generation now has the disposable cash that they didn't have back then and younger people want to feel what my generation did back then...some of both age groups have more money than "gray matter"...IMHO
My 68 Z28...real Z28 with ProTect-O-Plate...was one of 7,194 factory optioned cars...and how many are left today is anyone's guess.
So for me to try and compare stock in 1970 to stock in 2018...well, two totally different animals separated by 48 years...no way to compare them other than to say they were the muscle cars of that era...and the cars of today are the muscle cars of this era...IMHO
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Old 12-19-2017, 02:42 PM   #19
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My ‘69 Z28 was yellow with black stripes and the yellow and black houndstooth cloth seats.
Dual quads and a solid lifter 3/4 cam — never did see over 9 mpg with that beast!! Cherry bombs, of course! Corny, I know......
I can still remember having to be over 2,500 rpm before opening the throttle all the way or it would bog. Do it right though, and that little 302 would grab revs like crazy....
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Old 12-19-2017, 03:28 PM   #20
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My ‘69 Z28 was yellow with black stripes and the yellow and black houndstooth cloth seats.
Dual quads and a solid lifter 3/4 cam — never did see over 9 mpg with that beast!! Cherry bombs, of course! Corny, I know......
I can still remember having to be over 2,500 rpm before opening the throttle all the way or it would bog. Do it right though, and that little 302 would grab revs like crazy....
Picture of my 68. It has been in Sweden for a couple of decades now. Only thing not stock was the hood and Corvette wheels. Picture is just before I sold it in 1986.
This Z28 was one of only 156 that were ordered with the SPP option of the plenum air cleaner and tube headers packed loose in the trunk...very rare indeed.
Notice the 1968 sticker on the license plate...
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Old 12-19-2017, 08:04 PM   #21
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I hope that ppl who lived through that generation don't take anything said as disrespect. Its not... the cars of that era have nothing to compare to, they are just... "THE MUSCLE CARS". What the boomer generation came up on and now that so many boomers have money and there are so few of these cars of course they are going for a ton of money.

Just simply stating that the performance we are getting out of little V6s on 87 octane automatics getting 30mpg are nuts. As an example.
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Old 12-19-2017, 08:25 PM   #22
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And just started seeing posts that a few places have gotten bone stockers into the 11.9x range at sea level... automatic. Jesus tapdancing Christ...
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Old 12-23-2017, 02:57 PM   #23
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The 18s with the 10spd are no joke.
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Old 12-23-2017, 06:17 PM   #24
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Yeah I talked to my tuner again about the 11 second stockers and he's saying that those are the "New England cars" with 40 degree weather, sea level, perfect conditions and a track that knows how to actually prep. Yeah there are 4 or 5 of those tracks around here but I'm moving lol. Englishtown is the big one. Cecil, Maple Grove, Atco...
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:51 AM   #25
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Yall see lund Racing's facebook post? I skimmed the article looking for the dyno graph, but it looks like 501 whp / 462 wtq with an intake, catted long tube headers + h pipe and E85 tune. That's just crazy, and with a REALLY good powerband too. These things are going to be monsters.

Bolt-On, Naturally Aspirated 2018 Mustang Blasts Out Over 500 Rear-Wheel Horsepower!
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:55 AM   #26
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On that HP and torque graph, it still looks like the 5.0’s torque peak is waaaaaaay up there in the rpm range, although once reached in the new engine, it looks to stay pretty flat all the way to redline.
I still would like to see Ford offer the Raptor engine in the Mustang. 475 lb/ft all in at 1,900 rpm. That would be a tire roasting monster engine in the Mustang!
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:00 PM   #27
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It is peaky, but the HP is not. I had 445 in my cobrajet that just climbed and climbed and climbed to 8k, that's basically flat from what 5500 - 7200 give or take?

i've always been a firm believer that peak torque should be around 4000 rpms, tends to make for the best power band and most useable power. Power below 4000 only gets used once (1st gear on the launch), but power above that gets used all the time. I do see your point, i just dont agree with it.
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Old 01-09-2018, 01:57 PM   #28
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It is peaky, but the HP is not. I had 445 in my cobrajet that just climbed and climbed and climbed to 8k, that's basically flat from what 5500 - 7200 give or take?

i've always been a firm believer that peak torque should be around 4000 rpms, tends to make for the best power band and most useable power. Power below 4000 only gets used once (1st gear on the launch), but power above that gets used all the time. I do see your point, i just dont agree with it.
The best definition of torque and HP I’ve ever heard is this:

HP determines how fast you hit the wall. Torque determines how far you push it after that.

If you like high revving small blocks, I am right there with you. But I also owned a couple of 3.5 EcoBoost pickups, and both of those were FUN! Floor the throttle when the light turned green, roll out about 20 feet and WHAM — both turboes would hit and the rear tires would haze all the rest of the way through first gear, and the first few feet of second gear as well. And this in a 5,700 pound 4X4!!!!!! Can’t even imagine what the newer 3.5 dual turbo with much more grunt would be like in the F-150 OR the Mustang!
There are times that it seems like a looooooong time for the 5.0 to get going and stay in the torque peak from a stop (sure glad that I have the 3.55’s!). When I was a member of the f-150 forum, I always said that there was a reason that the “Max Tow” option was not offered on the 5.0. That 3.5 EB would tow like a monster at very low rpm’s. Even towing 9,000 pounds up steep grades was all done at 2,900 nice quiet rpm in 4th gear— and I’d pass every V8 using RV’er listening to them wail the snot out of their engines in 2nd gear at 20 mph less.
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:01 PM   #29
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Oh yeah, low torque certainly has its place, and those EBs are definitely capable. Like you said though, i do like getting the revs up and keeping them there.
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Old 01-09-2018, 04:14 PM   #30
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I think you guys hit the nail on the head. You build a motor for a specific reason, towing, racing or just street duty and Ford/GM/Chrysler have the hardest job of all building the motors because they have to do all three in one package.
If you are going to pull a 9k+ trailer the EB is a good choice.and for drag racing or road racing I'd lean towards the EB...take a look at what Roush/Yates has done with their little V6 winning LeMans, although I have to say there is no sound sweeter than Coyote in the 6/7kRPM range...just my personal preference.
I've had my ATS-V for over a year now and absolutely love the car, 464hp/445lbft, 0-60 in 4.0, 1/4 mile in the low, low 12's and top speed of over 165...don't ask how I know this. Granted I did have one issue with the little motor it was taken care of by GM. The one big plus is that I can take 5 people in total comfort with the Magnetic ride and 8spd auto.
On the towing side a friend will be taking delivery of a new Duramax L5P Duramax with 445HP/910FtLbs of torque...with that kind of torque you could tow a 747 up the Grape Vine.
As a closing, just take a look at what Roush/Yates have done with little EB motor in the Ford GT last year and put well over 30k miles on the motor...I think the hand righting is on the wall for the future...IMHO
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Old 01-09-2018, 04:19 PM   #31
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I agree, and no one can argue the power band a well sorted TT v6 is capable of. I just dont dont like turbo throttle response (and i've owned and tuned several) after i got bit by the v8 bug lol. I used to think the cars i tuned hit fast, but nothing hits like a well sorted v8.
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:39 PM   #32
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I always heard that HP was what you brag about, torque is what you feel!


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The best definition of torque and HP I’ve ever heard is this:

HP determines how fast you hit the wall. Torque determines how far you push it after that.

If you like high revving small blocks, I am right there with you. But I also owned a couple of 3.5 EcoBoost pickups, and both of those were FUN! Floor the throttle when the light turned green, roll out about 20 feet and WHAM — both turboes would hit and the rear tires would haze all the rest of the way through first gear, and the first few feet of second gear as well. And this in a 5,700 pound 4X4!!!!!! Can’t even imagine what the newer 3.5 dual turbo with much more grunt would be like in the F-150 OR the Mustang!
There are times that it seems like a looooooong time for the 5.0 to get going and stay in the torque peak from a stop (sure glad that I have the 3.55’s!). When I was a member of the f-150 forum, I always said that there was a reason that the “Max Tow” option was not offered on the 5.0. That 3.5 EB would tow like a monster at very low rpm’s. Even towing 9,000 pounds up steep grades was all done at 2,900 nice quiet rpm in 4th gear— and I’d pass every V8 using RV’er listening to them wail the snot out of their engines in 2nd gear at 20 mph less.
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:47 AM   #33
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With my 3.55:1 gear I can feel and use the torque in the twisty's were I run on the coastal hwy's. I had a 67 Camaro w/4 bbl carb and all drum brakes. 225 Hp or so, now I have 450 Hp at the crank without a tune, just intake "tube" and X-pipe. What an ole Hot Rodders dream.
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