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Old 05-16-2016, 07:52 PM   #1
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Possible future buyer?

Hey all,

I recently graduated and hopefully will be getting a big boy job after my internship. Soon after that I'll probably be looking into buying a new mustang or camaro.

I own an 03 mustang GT just for perspective. I personally will use this car as my daily driver and want a lot of creature comforts on the inside, which is why I'll be looking at a 15+ instead of the 13-14's.

Will I be impressed by these new eco boosts? They aren't massively stronger than the 4.6 I own now (that has a canned tune on it) and I feel like I will really miss that v8 growl. But it is considerably cheaper than the 5.0.

I've been looking at a few options, I would want premium ecoboost or premium GT. Clearly the GT is faster, but insurance might be killer since I am 23 and male. I don't care for fuel economy that much. My other option is a 2016 camaro as they are pretty amazing from what I've heard/read/watched (please don't hate me for saying that ) but man they are EXPENSIVE! They honestly don't even seem competitively priced against the stang. Most instances has them 5-10k more expensive than the identical mustang which is crazy.

Just thought I'd ask for opinion on what you guys think of my options, and what I should expect when shopping around.

Thank you for your help.
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Old 05-16-2016, 08:45 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by V6 stang View Post
Hey all,

I recently graduated and hopefully will be getting a big boy job after my internship. Soon after that I'll probably be looking into buying a new mustang or camaro.

I own an 03 mustang GT just for perspective. I personally will use this car as my daily driver and want a lot of creature comforts on the inside, which is why I'll be looking at a 15+ instead of the 13-14's.

Will I be impressed by these new eco boosts? They aren't massively stronger than the 4.6 I own now (that has a canned tune on it) and I feel like I will really miss that v8 growl. But it is considerably cheaper than the 5.0.

I've been looking at a few options, I would want premium ecoboost or premium GT. Clearly the GT is faster, but insurance might be killer since I am 23 and male. I don't care for fuel economy that much. My other option is a 2016 camaro as they are pretty amazing from what I've heard/read/watched (please don't hate me for saying that ) but man they are EXPENSIVE! They honestly don't even seem competitively priced against the stang. Most instances has them 5-10k more expensive than the identical mustang which is crazy.

Just thought I'd ask for opinion on what you guys think of my options, and what I should expect when shopping around.

Thank you for your help.
If the sound of the car is a big factor for you, stay away from the ecoboost. Nothing you do to it will make it sound good.
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Old 05-16-2016, 10:14 PM   #3
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Other than sounds though, any idea how I might feel when coming from a 03 gt to a 15-16 eco?

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Old 05-16-2016, 10:23 PM   #4
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Other than sounds though, any idea how I might feel when coming from a 03 gt to a 15-16 eco?

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If it's a stock Eco, probably content with it for what it is. They're nothing exciting, but I can definitely appreciate it as a daily like I did my sixxer.

The easiest answer would be to go test drive one.

What creature comforts does the 2015 5.0 offer that the 11-14 doesn't? Besides cooled seats.
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Old 05-17-2016, 06:25 AM   #5
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Pretty much all the technology inside. The flatscreen, etc.

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Old 05-17-2016, 07:01 AM   #6
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The tech package Mustangs have that.

Now if you're talking about interior quality/appeal, I agree. Creature comforts, not so much.


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Old 05-17-2016, 08:26 AM   #7
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I also worry about paying 20-30k for a stang with no warranty. At least a new one will cover 3 ish years for bumper to bumper. So only 2 years left on the note.

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Old 05-17-2016, 11:56 AM   #8
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I bet the Eco will out run your 03. My wife has a 15 Eco boost and I have a 07 GT with all the bolt ons . I'd rather drive hers because for a 4 banger the thing hauls the mail. And a blast to drive.


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Old 05-17-2016, 12:43 PM   #9
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If initial cost is not a factor get the V8 and I'll suggest getting real insurance quotes rather than "might be's"
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Old 05-17-2016, 01:45 PM   #10
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This is my personal opinion, the ecoboost is a great car with a lot of potential, there are guys getting 400 ft/lbs torque with just a tune. With that being said, you said you are going to keep your 03 gt as a daily, if that's the case I'm assuming your going to want some substantial mods on your car. The gt has a much higher ceiling than the ecoboost. Further down the road when you try and get more and more horsepower out of the 4 cyl, you might start regretting your decision of buying the car in the 1st place. And about insurance, either pay off the car and get liability once it's paid off or suffer until you turn 25 because that's when insurance drops a good bit. Just some food for thought.


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Old 05-17-2016, 01:50 PM   #11
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Disregard that last post, I read OP again and misread it initially. But either way, what I said about insurance still stands, and the 4 cyl will sorely disappoint you in sound, the v6 don't even sound that good compared to the gt. If you do get the Eco, you better upgrade the BOV and listen to that all day lol.


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Old 05-17-2016, 04:47 PM   #12
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If initial cost is not a factor get the V8 and I'll suggest getting real insurance quotes rather than "might be's"
What do you mean real insurance quotes? The company I use now and is typically pretty fair, I got quoted 190$ for a new v8.
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Old 05-17-2016, 04:48 PM   #13
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This is my personal opinion, the ecoboost is a great car with a lot of potential, there are guys getting 400 ft/lbs torque with just a tune. With that being said, you said you are going to keep your 03 gt as a daily, if that's the case I'm assuming your going to want some substantial mods on your car. The gt has a much higher ceiling than the ecoboost. Further down the road when you try and get more and more horsepower out of the 4 cyl, you might start regretting your decision of buying the car in the 1st place. And about insurance, either pay off the car and get liability once it's paid off or suffer until you turn 25 because that's when insurance drops a good bit. Just some food for thought.


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I will be trading my 03 gt in. The new car will be my daily driver.

Is the ecoboost enough fun to make me not worry so much about losing the V8 growl?
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:05 PM   #14
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Definitely, cornering is something you can have fun with too.


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Old 05-18-2016, 12:08 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by V6 stang View Post
Hey all,

I recently graduated and hopefully will be getting a big boy job after my internship. Soon after that I'll probably be looking into buying a new mustang or camaro.

I own an 03 mustang GT just for perspective. I personally will use this car as my daily driver and want a lot of creature comforts on the inside, which is why I'll be looking at a 15+ instead of the 13-14's.

Will I be impressed by these new eco boosts? They aren't massively stronger than the 4.6 I own now (that has a canned tune on it) and I feel like I will really miss that v8 growl. But it is considerably cheaper than the 5.0.

I've been looking at a few options, I would want premium ecoboost or premium GT. Clearly the GT is faster, but insurance might be killer since I am 23 and male. I don't care for fuel economy that much. My other option is a 2016 camaro as they are pretty amazing from what I've heard/read/watched (please don't hate me for saying that ) but man they are EXPENSIVE! They honestly don't even seem competitively priced against the stang. Most instances has them 5-10k more expensive than the identical mustang which is crazy.

Just thought I'd ask for opinion on what you guys think of my options, and what I should expect when shopping around.

Thank you for your help.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
First get a "Big Boy" job.
Second, how much money to you have for a down payment?
Third, you will need to have your job for a couple of years, no one will want to loan you any money, since you will not have much time on your new job.
Fourth, if you haven't yet, move out of Mommy and Daddy's house and get your own place.
Fifth, even if you get a "Big Boy" job, you will be starting at the bottom of the pay scale. You looking around the $30k area.
Is that $190 per month for insurance?
Six, do you have student loans to pay back? What is your budget looking like? Rent, insurance, car payment, gas, car maintenance, utilities, food, clothing, entertainment, girl friend...
Seven, come back in three years, when you have money for down payment and other items you want on the car.

It's nice to look into the future but you don't want to overload your wallet. No sense in buying a new car and you don't have the money to drive it.

Good Luck.
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:32 AM   #16
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I would take a 2014 V6 over the Ecoboost. It saves some serious money, and with manual, it's a no-brainer. The V6 is more consistent in the power that it delivers, has no turbo lag, and with a set of (added) shorter gears, it'll get as fast as the previous V8s did. The ecoboost is really eco*or*boost and has a dual personality that I don't like so much.

A first job starting out? $15K can get you a decent one. Paying $25-30K for an ecoboost or V8 is a bit silly at this time in your life, IMO.

As for speed? I can go fast enough in traffic just changing lanes and moving ahead to make the half-asleep drivers around me panic a bit if I want. The V6 is amazingly quick compared to the early 2000s model.
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Old 05-18-2016, 05:35 AM   #17
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Hey all,

Clearly the GT is faster, but insurance might be killer since I am 23 and male.
that is where I got might be and suggested real quotes. I read that as you hadn't gotten real quotes....

You need to drive the cars it'll help you decide, but a common complaint about the eco-boost is it's sound. I doubt it's what you want but try and find a base model and see if it's fancy enough for you. You can order a base V8 for similar cost of a loaded I4. I admit to being biased as I don't like fancy interiors but would prefer motor

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Old 05-18-2016, 07:33 AM   #18
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This is my personal opinion, the ecoboost is a great car with a lot of potential, there are guys getting 400 ft/lbs torque with just a tune. With that being said, you said you are going to keep your 03 gt as a daily, if that's the case I'm assuming your going to want some substantial mods on your car. The gt has a much higher ceiling than the ecoboost. Further down the road when you try and get more and more horsepower out of the 4 cyl, you might start regretting your decision of buying the car in the 1st place. And about insurance, either pay off the car and get liability once it's paid off or suffer until you turn 25 because that's when insurance drops a good bit. Just some food for thought.


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Pretty stupid advice to tell someone who can barely afford a car in the 20-30 k range to rush and pay it off and then drop insurance to liability only. If he were to get in an accident that was his fault, or hit a patch of ice or something similar he would be out completely.


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Old 05-18-2016, 07:51 AM   #19
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#1 rule of car buying under 40:
Let the other guy eat the initial depreciation.

No matter what you do, get something a couple of years old and save the initial sales tax and registration "pealty", higher insurance, and loan payments ( monthly plus total borrowed ). I bought my first new car at 43 and barely could afford it. And by afford, I mean really afford it without eating ramen and breaking my budget.

Also, wait until the fall/winter when the new models start coming out. If you like the new style, a used 15 when the 17s are coming out can be as much as a $10K savings on some trim lines. Find something coming off of a 24 month lease and laugh at the money you didn't spend.
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Old 05-18-2016, 08:51 AM   #20
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#1 rule of car buying under 40:
Let the other guy eat the initial depreciation.

No matter what you do, get something a couple of years old and save the initial sales tax and registration "pealty", higher insurance, and loan payments ( monthly plus total borrowed ). I bought my first new car at 43 and barely could afford it. And by afford, I mean really afford it without eating ramen and breaking my budget.

Also, wait until the fall/winter when the new models start coming out. If you like the new style, a used 15 when the 17s are coming out can be as much as a $10K savings on some trim lines. Find something coming off of a 24 month lease and laugh at the money you didn't spend.

Not always the case. With rebates and dealer incentives I bought my 14 brand new for less then I could get a used 13 for at the time. It's al about being a well informed buyer.


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Old 05-18-2016, 09:17 AM   #21
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-----------------------------------------------------------------
First get a "Big Boy" job.
Second, how much money to you have for a down payment?
Third, you will need to have your job for a couple of years, no one will want to loan you any money, since you will not have much time on your new job.
Fourth, if you haven't yet, move out of Mommy and Daddy's house and get your own place.
Fifth, even if you get a "Big Boy" job, you will be starting at the bottom of the pay scale. You looking around the $30k area.
Is that $190 per month for insurance?
Six, do you have student loans to pay back? What is your budget looking like? Rent, insurance, car payment, gas, car maintenance, utilities, food, clothing, entertainment, girl friend...
Seven, come back in three years, when you have money for down payment and other items you want on the car.

It's nice to look into the future but you don't want to overload your wallet. No sense in buying a new car and you don't have the money to drive it.

Good Luck.
Finally some opinions. Awesome

1) Working on that, I think I've got some decent stuff lined up after my internship.
2) I'll have my car (prolly worth around 3k?) and will want to save up 1-3 grand on top of that.
3) Sure, but I've had work history for a bit and would have my fiance on the note also. Not saying that disproves your point though
4) I have lived on my own throughout college
5) I agree. It looks like the jobs I am looking at gross around 35-40k. Damn taxes! lol
6) I do have loans of around 35k. I have also ran a budget already of a net income of 2120 a month (which is pretty conservative) and even put in a 500$ car payment along with 200$ in insurance. Even with all of that I could make it. But it may stress me out more than I would want.

Thanks for the advice. I have always told myself that I would get a new car to reward myself for getting through college. It was my motivation at some points, whatever gets you through I guess. But I really don't want to see this dream car of mine die off because unfortunately weddings are coming and then kids... Kids that will suck all of my money away from me lol. Hope you can understand my fear that I'll never get my dream car until 50-60 when all this processed food has already done me off
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:23 AM   #22
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I would take a 2014 V6 over the Ecoboost. It saves some serious money, and with manual, it's a no-brainer. The V6 is more consistent in the power that it delivers, has no turbo lag, and with a set of (added) shorter gears, it'll get as fast as the previous V8s did. The ecoboost is really eco*or*boost and has a dual personality that I don't like so much.

A first job starting out? $15K can get you a decent one. Paying $25-30K for an ecoboost or V8 is a bit silly at this time in your life, IMO.

As for speed? I can go fast enough in traffic just changing lanes and moving ahead to make the half-asleep drivers around me panic a bit if I want. The V6 is amazingly quick compared to the early 2000s model.
Sure, I drove a 11 v6 back in like 2013. It was a joy to drive and a definite upgrade from my 03 GT. It even sounded decent with some mufflers on it. My only issue now is that I want things like a flat screen computer on the inside, and heated/cooled seats. The rest of the interior is nice, but those creature comforts are nice. I want to keep my next car for 10-15 years and want to be happy with it for a while.

I've had a normal part time job for around 3 years so it's not my first. I'm starting an internship for this summer. But yeah, first salary or higher paying job.

I also have a large fear of having 300-400 dollar payments and having no warranty. So you are out the cash if it breaks down all while continuing to make those 400 dollar payments.

Another fear of mine is that someone has been able to abuse it for 4-6 years by now. I have driven used cars my entire life and there's a saying that I like to use and have always seen it to be true:

You are buying someone else's problems.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:28 AM   #23
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#1 rule of car buying under 40:
Let the other guy eat the initial depreciation.

No matter what you do, get something a couple of years old and save the initial sales tax and registration "pealty", higher insurance, and loan payments ( monthly plus total borrowed ). I bought my first new car at 43 and barely could afford it. And by afford, I mean really afford it without eating ramen and breaking my budget.

Also, wait until the fall/winter when the new models start coming out. If you like the new style, a used 15 when the 17s are coming out can be as much as a $10K savings on some trim lines. Find something coming off of a 24 month lease and laugh at the money you didn't spend.

Yep, I totally agree with your. I am definitely down with letting them drive it off the lot and eat that depreciation. I have been looking at 15 GT's Premium with around 25-35k miles on them going for around $29k-30k. That's like 8-10k in depreciation. 29-30k is also without haggling them down a bit. So I have really been looking at that route.

Like I said above though, I have a serious fear of being locked into 400 dollar payments a month and having a very small window of warranty. The farther you go back, yes the more depreciation has built on that car, but also the less warranty you get.

So at the fall/winter of this year is when the 2017's will start being made/released? I will probably naturally have to wait that long (if not longer) to buy anyways.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:32 AM   #24
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Not always the case. With rebates and dealer incentives I bought my 14 brand new for less then I could get a used 13 for at the time. It's al about being a well informed buyer.


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I remember this back then and seeing a lot of guys on here picking up the 14's (partially because they liked the styling better, and they were having great deals on them). They were practically giving them away because of the new 15's coming out. The incentives were insanely awesome. But this isn't going to happen for a few years when a new model comes out.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:36 AM   #25
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Finally some opinions. Awesome

1) Working on that, I think I've got some decent stuff lined up after my internship.
2) I'll have my car (prolly worth around 3k?) and will want to save up 1-3 grand on top of that.
3) Sure, but I've had work history for a bit and would have my fiance on the note also. Not saying that disproves your point though
4) I have lived on my own throughout college
5) I agree. It looks like the jobs I am looking at gross around 35-40k. Damn taxes! lol
6) I do have loans of around 35k. I have also ran a budget already of a net income of 2120 a month (which is pretty conservative) and even put in a 500$ car payment along with 200$ in insurance. Even with all of that I could make it. But it may stress me out more than I would want.

Thanks for the advice. I have always told myself that I would get a new car to reward myself for getting through college. It was my motivation at some points, whatever gets you through I guess. But I really don't want to see this dream car of mine die off because unfortunately weddings are coming and then kids... Kids that will suck all of my money away from me lol. Hope you can understand my fear that I'll never get my dream car until 50-60 when all this processed food has already done me off
I definitely get where you are coming from. When you get your job, put 15% into your 401k, buy a nice used 3.7 or 5.0 if you can find one under 20k.

Best advice I can offer, take that $500 you're budgeting for a car payment, use $2-250 for the payment and put the extra into your loans. Once you're out from under them in a few years, you'll be in a position that the used mustang you buy now will be paid off and your student loans paid off, youll be 3-5 years into a job and seen salary increases and you'll be able to afford any car you want within reason.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:43 AM   #26
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Sure, I drove a 11 v6 back in like 2013. It was a joy to drive and a definite upgrade from my 03 GT. It even sounded decent with some mufflers on it. My only issue now is that I want things like a flat screen computer on the inside, and heated/cooled seats. The rest of the interior is nice, but those creature comforts are nice. I want to keep my next car for 10-15 years and want to be happy with it for a while.

I've had a normal part time job for around 3 years so it's not my first. I'm starting an internship for this summer. But yeah, first salary or higher paying job.

I also have a large fear of having 300-400 dollar payments and having no warranty. So you are out the cash if it breaks down all while continuing to make those 400 dollar payments.

Another fear of mine is that someone has been able to abuse it for 4-6 years by now. I have driven used cars my entire life and there's a saying that I like to use and have always seen it to be true:

You are buying someone else's problems.
Shop as many dealers as you can! I was in the same boat this January, 23 and just graduated with my bachelors and wanted to reward myself. I started a job making $30,000, which where I live is good money, so I started shopping around. I was pretty set on a 2010 Camaro LS1 but my girlfriend told me to wait (and if this isn't part of your lifestyle I apologize) and pray on it. 1 week later I found a used 2011 V6 base at a Nissan dealer a hour away for $13,000. I drove up that night and bought the car.

The reason I say check every dealer is because the Camaro was at a Toyota dealer. Although it was nice it had 60,000 miles and some interior tears and they wanted $16,000 and wouldn't budge and I was about to pull the trigger anyways. The Mustang at the Nissan dealer was in like new condition besides for rock chips and had 35,000 miles. Nissan also threw in a 6 year 100,000 3rd party bumper to bumper warranty because they feel they are the best dealership around. Waiting and finding the right dealer for you on an used one can make a HUGE difference.

At the end of the day I walked away with a new to me 2011 V6 with warranty for $15,000 after taxes and everything. My car payment is $288 and insurance is $168 (although I may change because GEICO is offering me $142 a month with all the available packages that State Farm currently isn't).
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:44 AM   #27
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I definitely get where you are coming from. When you get your job, put 15% into your 401k, buy a nice used 3.7 or 5.0 if you can find one under 20k.

Best advice I can offer, take that $500 you're budgeting for a car payment, use $2-250 for the payment and put the extra into your loans. Once you're out from under them in a few years, you'll be in a position that the used mustang you buy now will be paid off and your student loans paid off, youll be 3-5 years into a job and seen salary increases and you'll be able to afford any car you want within reason.
Fair enough. Yeah looking at the market, I can get a 11-12 GT with 40kish miles for around 17-19k. Sounds great to me.

Am I silly for still worrying about having no warranty to cover my ***? If it breaks down, I'm out on that and still paying that stout payment.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:56 AM   #28
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Shop as many dealers as you can! I was in the same boat this January, 23 and just graduated with my bachelors and wanted to reward myself. I started a job making $30,000, which where I live is good money, so I started shopping around. I was pretty set on a 2010 Camaro LS1 but my girlfriend told me to wait (and if this isn't part of your lifestyle I apologize) and pray on it. 1 week later I found a used 2011 V6 base at a Nissan dealer a hour away for $13,000. I drove up that night and bought the car.

The reason I say check every dealer is because the Camaro was at a Toyota dealer. Although it was nice it had 60,000 miles and some interior tears and they wanted $16,000 and wouldn't budge and I was about to pull the trigger anyways. The Mustang at the Nissan dealer was in like new condition besides for rock chips and had 35,000 miles. Nissan also threw in a 6 year 100,000 3rd party bumper to bumper warranty because they feel they are the best dealership around. Waiting and finding the right dealer for you on an used one can make a HUGE difference.

At the end of the day I walked away with a new to me 2011 V6 with warranty for $15,000 after taxes and everything. My car payment is $288 and insurance is $168 (although I may change because GEICO is offering me $142 a month with all the available packages that State Farm currently isn't).
That's awesome! I am glad you know the struggle and that struggle is recent to you haha. I think that it makes it a little harder on me because I am a bit picky with what I want. I like the new modern technology. From what I've seen, the cars from 11-14 with computer screen in the middle are VERY few and far between. I try not to pray on it because it's so materialistic (not judging you, because the Lord knows I have definitely done it before) but I digress. Luckily I have a fiancee that will stand behind me and do what makes me happy. Personally I am a very frugal person and hate spending or acquiring debt. I am only doing this because I worked so hard for it.

That's an awesome payment and insurance payment so congratz to you. And congratz on graduating Unfortunately not many places will throw in something like that (isn't the value on those things like 3-4 grand? lol) so I won't have the peace of mind like you do.
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Old 05-18-2016, 04:13 PM   #29
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I would like to say something, maybe can get a giggle out of some of you.

I quoted insurance like if I was to buy the car and needed it today. The camaro SS was 159 a month and the Ecoboost Mustang was 165. Lmfao

Mustang GT was 191....

Is it just the name or something...? Geez

OR maybe cuz it is turboed?

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Old 05-18-2016, 04:33 PM   #30
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I will be trading my 03 gt in. The new car will be my daily driver.

Is the ecoboost enough fun to make me not worry so much about losing the V8 growl?
It's your personal choice. My opinion would be to ignore the ecobox engine and go for a GT. First, the 4cyl is showing a lot of problems. Second, it's a 4cyl hauling a couple tons of car. They also sound like crap, as has been stated.

The modern creature comforts will be night and day.

...and don't trade the 03 GT, you will lose your butt. Sell the car and carry cash as a down payment. Also be careful with payments. Look at overall costs, including interest. A good salesman can make a low payment look great, until you realise you just payed a quarter of what the car is worth to the bank.

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Old 05-19-2016, 09:56 AM   #31
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It's your personal choice. My opinion would be to ignore the ecobox engine and go for a GT. First, the 4cyl is showing a lot of problems. Second, it's a 4cyl hauling a couple tons of car. They also sound like crap, as has been stated.

The modern creature comforts will be night and day.

...and don't trade the 03 GT, you will lose your butt. Sell the car and carry cash as a down payment. Also be careful with payments. Look at overall costs, including interest. A good salesman can make a low payment look great, until you realise you just payed a quarter of what the car is worth to the bank.

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I'm hearing issues with the eco boost. So maybe I'll stay clear of that. Same with chevy's 2016's with paint issues and other recalls. Seems like the previous 3.7 or the 5.0 is the main ones I'll be looking at.

I normally sell cars, but I know it can be a pain. Plus I am forced into buying a new car if I sell mine. I wanna look for a good deal on something I'd like. And yeah I understand on the interest stuff, one perk of being a finance major haha. I got 0% on my fiancee's car.. Hopefully around that on mine.
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Old 05-19-2016, 01:44 PM   #32
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My credit union considers "new" to be up to a couple of years old and under 50K miles, so you might also be able to work a deal that way as well.
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Old 05-23-2016, 01:29 PM   #33
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I will be trading my 03 gt in. The new car will be my daily driver.

Is the ecoboost enough fun to make me not worry so much about losing the V8 growl?

I actually just got home from being with the Atlanta s550 group and I can honestly say that eco is pretty fun. Especially once you install a turbosmart BOV, it just sounds amazing to me. And the torque is definitely there.


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Old 05-23-2016, 02:09 PM   #34
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I actually just got home from being with the Atlanta s550 group and I can honestly say that eco is pretty fun. Especially once you install a turbosmart BOV, it just sounds amazing to me. And the torque is definitely there.


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I test drove one over the weekend. It feels like the turbo kicks in too late, by the time it gets going good I have to shift lol.

I won't touch the car due to voiding warranty. Outside of some pipes of course. But from what I hear, no matter what, it sounds bad

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