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Old 05-27-2009, 02:17 PM   #36
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Re: Confederate Flag

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I think I would be covered head to toe in a confederate flag if I went to this nascar race...just out of spite.

NAACP Branch Readies for Confederate Flag Fight - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com
Is black people boycotting a nascar race really going to hurt Nascar? I mean honsetly....
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Old 05-27-2009, 02:43 PM   #37
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Re: Confederate Flag

Agreed. Aside from brad daureghty, I don't know of any african americans watching nascar.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:46 PM   #38
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Re: Confederate Flag

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Is black people boycotting a nascar race really going to hurt Nascar? I mean honsetly....
If it includes boycotting the nascar jackets...you betcha.


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Agreed. Aside from brad daureghty, I don't know of any african americans watching nascar.
No, but they sure do love them some bright team racing jackets
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:21 PM   #39
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Re: Confederate Flag

This might be the one time i agree with ACLU, i wonder when they are going to make Old Miss change there mascot
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:50 PM   #40
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Re: Confederate Flag

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This might be the one time i agree with ACLU, i wonder when they are going to make Old Miss change there mascot
You know, people say this all the time. The ACLU defends everyone. They have no hidden agenda. They do not fight for just liberals, contrary to what Foxnews and every neo con for the last 8 years has tried to push on everyone. They defend the constitution and while yes, they do stick up for some shady pathetic people and groups, for the most part the ACLU has done FAR more good than bad in this country.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:05 AM   #41
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Re: Confederate Flag

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You know, people say this all the time. The ACLU defends everyone. They have no hidden agenda. They do not fight for just liberals, contrary to what Foxnews and every neo con for the last 8 years has tried to push on everyone. They defend the constitution and while yes, they do stick up for some shady pathetic people and groups, for the most part the ACLU has done FAR more good than bad in this country.
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:10 PM   #42
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Re: Confederate Flag

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You know, people say this all the time. The ACLU defends everyone. They have no hidden agenda. They do not fight for just liberals, contrary to what Foxnews and every neo con for the last 8 years has tried to push on everyone. They defend the constitution and while yes, they do stick up for some shady pathetic people and groups, for the most part the ACLU has done FAR more good than bad in this country.
Except when Christianty is involved
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Old 05-28-2009, 08:28 PM   #43
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Re: Confederate Flag

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Except when Christianty is involved
Separation of Church and State is in the Constitution, if I recall correctly.

We can have Sharia Law in America if you want Christians to use their religion to influence government too. Fair is fair.
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:06 AM   #44
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Re: Confederate Flag

I used to be a huge political debater, but lately I haven't been into it.
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:57 AM   #45
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Re: Confederate Flag

I grew up in the deep South, Mobile, Alabama to be exact. I am fond of the flag but it never represented hatred to me. I've since learned that it offends a lot of people so I am discrete about where I display it. I'm white, working along the west coast of Africa. I've yet to experience any racism here towards me (been working a schedule here for 3 1/2 years). I wish our country was just as free. I can sit down in a restaurant or bar and be the only white there and never have any problems. Oh, been to a village church here a time or too also. I don't agree with the current separatist attitudes that a lot of minorities have in the 'states. It's self defeating at best. A common phrase I hear here is "One Love", methinks this is a Bob Marley quote
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:00 PM   #46
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Re: Confederate Flag

The Confederate flag has been flown in the south for a couple reasons.

The root of all current reasons was the patriotism that the old Civil War vets had for their beloved confederacy. The Secession and resulting Civil War was not about just slavery even though that is all you hear anymore. It was 100% states rights and_nothing_else. The South had been being bullied around and excluded for years leading up to the Civil War, the slavery issue was merely a last straw.

Even after being defeated, the Confederates still held true to their beliefs and their opinion of the North did not change in the least when the northern carpet baggers came in and made themselves rich off the depleated South. The Survivors and those who grew up during the war respected the flag as their one true attempt to speak their minds and fight for something they believed in.

Their kids, and their kids kids, etc would fly the flag for years to come out of respect for those who fought and for remembrance of when the states had the courage to fight for what they believed in.

Unfortunately now that tradition has been obscured by some and some people do think it was flown to represent a person's racist beliefs. A multitude of other National flags can be flown in this country. I don't see why the Confederate Battle Flag cannot as well by those who chose to.

And as a side note, people who think that racism on both sides is, for lack of a better word, "in-bread" I feel sorry for. It doesn't matter what your past experiences may be or how you were raised, you can_always_over come and even just one person can change your opinion. The people who say someone can't help being racist are no better than being racists. You are making excuses for them and providing them with artificial handicaps that continue to keep them down. Because someone has been the recipient of racism in the past doesn't give them auto rights to be racist to anyone they meet now. Will it make them more cautious? Probably. But there is not going to be improvement till both sides are willing to work for it.

No Blacks did not receive reparations unlike other races in the past that our country had downtrodden. However, it's also too late for it now. I will not be paying reparations for something that my great great grandparents did to the current generation's great great grandparents. Their own people sold them into slavery and their living conditions, even as slaves, were better in America than they were in Africa. Does this make slavery remotely ok? No, but it is a fact none the less.
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:22 PM   #47
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Re: Confederate Flag

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Separation of Church and State is in the Constitution, if I recall correctly.

We can have Sharia Law in America if you want Christians to use their religion to influence government too. Fair is fair.
Wrong, the words "Separation of Church and State" is no where to be found in any part of the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, or any other government related document that was made during the founding of our country's governing system.
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Old 08-03-2009, 03:31 PM   #48
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Re: Confederate Flag

It still counts if they amended it in later...
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Old 08-03-2009, 04:38 PM   #49
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Re: Confederate Flag

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It still counts if they amended it in later...
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Taken from the first amendment and the only applicable amendment so far. Says government cannot declare a state religion and can't prevent you from worshipping in a way you see fit.

Nothing about separation...
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Old 08-03-2009, 04:52 PM   #50
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Re: Confederate Flag

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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Taken from the first amendment and the only applicable amendment so far. Says government cannot declare a state religion and can't prevent you from worshipping in a way you see fit.

Nothing about separation...
Uh ok. George Bush using Chrisitan beliefs to determine laws isn't establishing a 'religion' it's just establishing laws based on his religion....... That makes everything fine then....

It's cool. One day Muslims will start putting more and more pressure to have their religion represented in our government then all the Christians will ***** and moan and the south will stick up their confederate flags, grab a cold Budweiser and vote Republican Christians in so we can fight that other evil Religion that is different than ours...

Oh wait.. that's 2001-2008.

If you believe Religion should be used to create laws in our government then you have to have all religions or none. Else you are establishing a a precedent that this country makes laws based on one religion and one religion only.

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq' | World news | The Guardian

I guess God didn't give a **** about the tyranny in Africa, North Korea or Iran.....
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Old 08-03-2009, 04:58 PM   #51
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Re: Confederate Flag

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Uh ok. George Bush using Chrisitan beliefs to determine laws isn't establishing a 'religion' it's just establishing laws based on his religion....... That makes everything fine then....

It's cool. One day Muslims will start putting more and more pressure to have their religion represented in our government then all the Christians will ***** and moan and the south will stick up their confederate flags, grab a cold Budweiser and vote Republican Christians in so we can fight that other evil Religion that is different than ours...

Oh wait.. that's 2001-2008.

If you believe Religion should be used to create laws in our government then you have to have all religions or none. Else you are establishing a a precedent that this country makes laws based on one religion and one religion only.

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq' | World news | The Guardian

I guess God didn't give a **** about the tyranny in Africa, North Korea or Iran.....
And feel free to jump to conclusions about what I believe. I was merely correcting the oft heard falacy that "Separation of Church and State" is somehow in our Constitution or Bill of Rights.
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:00 PM   #52
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Re: Confederate Flag

government applies to everyone in the land and religion only applies to its followers. with that said, it should be assumed that a democratic nation should keep religion and government seperated. otherwise, it infringes on the rights of its citizens.
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:08 PM   #53
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Re: Confederate Flag

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government applies to everyone in the land and religion only applies to its followers. with that said, it should be assumed that a democratic nation should keep religion and government seperated. otherwise, it infringes on the rights of its citizens.
Indeed.
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Old 08-03-2009, 08:25 PM   #54
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Re: Confederate Flag

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And feel free to jump to conclusions about what I believe. I was merely correcting the oft heard falacy that "Separation of Church and State" is somehow in our Constitution or Bill of Rights.
When people quote Separation of Church and State that is what they are basically saying. Sure, those words aren't in the Constitution exactly like that but having a President go to war because a Christian God told him too....

I mean what the ****. But whatever... obviously that's fine since George Bush didn't make Christianity the national religion.
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:59 PM   #55
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Re: Confederate Flag

Brent sort of said what I was getting at. There is no "separation of church and state" amendment, but the first amendment is basically the gist of the notion.

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The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause, ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.

The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose. The first approach is called the "separationist" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferentialist" or "accommodationist" interpretation. The accommodationist interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.

The clause itself was seen as a reaction to the Church of England, established as the official church of England and some of the colonies, during the colonial era.

Originally, the First Amendment only applied to the federal government. Subsequently, under the incorporation doctrine, certain selected provisions were applied to states. It was not, however, until the middle and later years of the twentieth century that the Supreme Court began to interpret the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses in such a manner as to restrict the promotion of religion by state governments. For example, in the Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 (1994), Justice David Souter, writing for the majority, concluded that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion".



That is what I think of when I say separation of church and state. I know people like to argue semantics in law and other official documentation, but this isn't a court of law so common sense actually has a place here. :V
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Old 08-04-2009, 12:07 AM   #56
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Re: Confederate Flag

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When people quote Separation of Church and State that is what they are basically saying. Sure, those words aren't in the Constitution exactly like that but having a President go to war because a Christian God told him too....

I mean what the ****. But whatever... obviously that's fine since George Bush didn't make Christianity the national religion.
umm...you can stop your stereotypical rant now, because frankly, I, nor you apparently, have any idea who you are ranting to. I've said exactly Jack **** about George Bush. I've also said exactly Jack **** about_anything_other than "Separation of Church and State" is not in the Constitution and some words on the Confederate Flag. I know ranting on GW is your favorite thing to do, but take it to a thread where it belongs.
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Old 08-04-2009, 12:12 AM   #57
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Re: Confederate Flag

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Brent sort of said what I was getting at. There is no "separation of church and state" amendment, but the first amendment is basically the gist of the notion.






That is what I think of when I say separation of church and state. I know people like to argue semantics in law and other official documentation, but this isn't a court of law so common sense actually has a place here. :V
You need to look at the implications of the First Amendment as they were when this was first written. The idea of this was to prevent the government from mandating a set church to go to and profess as England did to the Colonies who were largely protestant while the English church was a form of Catholicism. Some people like to say the Constitution is a living breathing document which I agree with to some extent. But, unfortunately, by "living breathing document" most actually just mean "make it what I need it to be to suit my purpose".

The State cannot force a point of view, but how do you draw a line AROUND a senator or a president or even a school teacher being able to openly express their religion? I don't think you can, and to draw one anyway is and has been incredibly dangerous.
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Old 08-04-2009, 10:06 AM   #58
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Re: Confederate Flag

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umm...you can stop your stereotypical rant now, because frankly, I, nor you apparently, have any idea who you are ranting to. I've said exactly Jack **** about George Bush. I've also said exactly Jack **** about_anything_other than "Separation of Church and State" is not in the Constitution and some words on the Confederate Flag. I know ranting on GW is your favorite thing to do, but take it to a thread where it belongs.
Umm... I'm using George Bush as an example of what happens when Religion isn't separated from Church and State. I don't give a rats *** if it doesn't appear in the constitution verbatim. If you go back and look at why we are here in the first place it was to escape the George Bush's of the world. Those leaders who push their religious views on Americans are the reason we exist as a country today for the most part. Sure it might not be the only reason but it is a big part of the reason.

You want me to complain about Obamas misused of Religion in his 4 months of office or something? What about Clintons?

Geez, I use George Bush for a reason. The reason is because he is the religious nut that has been in power over the last 8 years going to war because God told him to.

I don't know what you want to prove with Separation of Church and State don't appear verbatim. Looking back at our history the way it reads in the constitution was put there for a reason. To keep our government from forcing one religious believe down everyones throat.

Which is why I keep using George Bush as a point to that.

But keep thinking that I just hate George Bush. Maybe one day people will realize I don't give a **** what party you are with. It just so happens the majority of people on here are anti-Democrat at all cost and whine about Obama while ignoring the other sides vast problems.

Not saying that's you but stop whining about me making a point just because I am using George Bush. It's a valid point about the way the founding fathers wanted religion to stay out of politics.
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Old 08-04-2009, 10:09 AM   #59
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Re: Confederate Flag

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You need to look at the implications of the First Amendment as they were when this was first written. The idea of this was to prevent the government from mandating a set church to go to and profess as England did to the Colonies who were largely protestant while the English church was a form of Catholicism. Some people like to say the Constitution is a living breathing document which I agree with to some extent. But, unfortunately, by "living breathing document" most actually just mean "make it what I need it to be to suit my purpose".

The State cannot force a point of view, but how do you draw a line AROUND a senator or a president or even a school teacher being able to openly express their religion? I don't think you can, and to draw one anyway is and has been incredibly dangerous.
The line is very clear when you say **** like this: George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq' | World news | The Guardian I don't know how much more clearer I can make that.

When the most powerful leader of the world is sending human beings into war for God that's over the line by a long shot.

I don't care what religion the leader is as long as it does not impact his decision making. Obama could be a Muslim for all I care. He has shown that when it comes to science he puts it before Religion. Which is how it's suppose to be if this country wants to keep advancing. God isn't going to help us cure cancer guys. Sorry.....
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Old 08-04-2009, 11:47 AM   #60
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Re: Confederate Flag

Yes yes bush is a ****** and all that, but do you actually think we'd be in Iraq if congress didn't want us there? Honestly. Bush is just a scapegoat.
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Old 08-04-2009, 11:53 AM   #61
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Re: Confederate Flag

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You need to look at the implications of the First Amendment as they were when this was first written. The idea of this was to prevent the government from mandating a set church to go to and profess as England did to the Colonies who were largely protestant while the English church was a form of Catholicism. Some people like to say the Constitution is a living breathing document which I agree with to some extent. But, unfortunately, by "living breathing document" most actually just mean "make it what I need it to be to suit my purpose".
I actually included that part in the quote.

Quote:
The State cannot force a point of view, but how do you draw a line AROUND a senator or a president or even a school teacher being able to openly express their religion? I don't think you can, and to draw one anyway is and has been incredibly dangerous.
I never said they should, I just said that most people say "separation of church and state" and mean "the 'government' shouldn't have religious direction" (which is what the supreme court has interpreted the first amendment to say) not that all officials must immediately declare themselves agnostic.

Law itself HAS to be "living and breathing" or we'd all still be solving problems with posse hangings and armed duels on the white house lawn while our slaves rocked out in the cotton field. It bothers me when people want to take literal meaning from things like...the bible....or the constitution, and not adjust for 200-2000 years of cultural evolution. (I do agree that most people only bend the rules of law to benefit their cause, and its one reason I hate politics in a general sense)
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:08 PM   #62
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Re: Confederate Flag

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The line is very clear when you say **** like this: George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq' | World news | The Guardian I don't know how much more clearer I can make that.

When the most powerful leader of the world is sending human beings into war for God that's over the line by a long shot.

I don't care what religion the leader is as long as it does not impact his decision making. Obama could be a Muslim for all I care. He has shown that when it comes to science he puts it before Religion. Which is how it's suppose to be if this country wants to keep advancing. God isn't going to help us cure cancer guys. Sorry.....
We wouldn't be in Iraq without the majority of Congress being on the same side. We wouldn't be in Iraq if ties to terrorism weren't discovered. We wouldn't be in Iraq if there weren't evidence of Genocide. We wouldn't be in Iraq if there weren't evidence of wmd's which English intelligence also agreed with.

I read your article the first time you linked it. I highly doubt the validity of that article for one main reason. It's source is and story are being told by someone who lives in a culture where the religious fanaticism of Bush is paled by comparison to the fanaticism of this person's culture. Putting a religious slant on it helps the writer's story and gains him readers just like in America putting an anti-religious slant on something garners it more attention in the media. I don't expect everything to be from CNN or Fox or MSNBC or whatever main stream media there is, but at least provide credible sources that bolster your argument for religion not having a place in government decisions that aren't written by someone living in a government where_all_government decisions are based on religion.
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