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Old 08-23-2005, 10:40 PM   #36
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Re: Intelligent Design:

I just find it hard to believe that some dude is chillin somewhere wathcing me and making sure I am living "right"

I dont know how we got here or why we are here. I wont know till I die I guess.... I do not understand how one "religion" can claim to be the only right one.

You only know what you were brought up to know. If you were brought up muslim your going to be a muslim more than likely.

Same goes for every other religion.

Its all who you are born into... sure some change but not many.... and they change for many reasons...

You just don't know... how did all of this just come together to form something perfect enough to hold life... and intelligent life at that....

Our minds cant comprehend it...
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Old 08-24-2005, 07:08 AM   #37
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Religion by definition is: A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. Here is the major problem with Religion, theSpiritual LeaderThis is mans interpretations of Gods intentions. This is not for just Christians but all religions. You can be a person of faith and have no allegience to any religion. Religions have caused wars faith has not.

Faith is by definition; The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. Faith does not need religion to support it but religion needs faith or there is no support. Blind faith in a man made religion or some spiritual leaders can lead people to path of subversion and control. Eventually some take absolute control and become cults.

True spirituallity comes from inside. we all have the necessary tools to read for ourselves the bible or other books of faith inspired by God.

God is by definition; A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people. There it is a supernatural being. Someone of greater power or ability than a normal being. Whether you believe in God as portrayed by movies and painting with big beard and living in the clouds or a supernatural being from another part of a universe who created us through experiment is up to you. When you really think about it, why are all the pictures of Jesus of really white people??? Jesus was born of people who lived in Jordan, Israel and Syria. Who is white there????? Jesus would have looked like a Arab or middle eastern decent. Once again mans interpretation of God.

Whether you are muslim, Jewish, Christian they all have the same God. They all believe in the old testament we all break after that believeing we are the true way to God. Interesting the old testament is of people with one faith. The faith in God. Eventually man created the Jewish faith and mans corruption took over. Once Jesus comes to being his follower moved away from Mans laws and eventually formed a group called The Way which was demonized by the Jewish faith and went into hiding.They had to worship in secret usually in the catacombs (An underground, often labyrinthine passageway) in the local mountains. This broth about the name Catholic or people of the catacombs. They grew and created a leader which eventually lead to the pope and once again mans laws and corruption. Around 1000 years ago Mohammed came about and wrote the Quran (The sacred text of Islam, considered by Muslims to contain the revelations of God to Muhammad. Also called Alcoran) This inspired people of the middle east to have a faith all to there own and mans laws came and corruption followed. All the break away religions started off following the books of faith but eventually get to the point where they pick a leader or a leader rises. Once this happens Corruption is sure to follow.

Man is corrupt, absolute power corrupts, Man made religion is corrupt. Let no man corrupt your faith for the spirit is within us and not thru some human leader.
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:53 PM   #38
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Re: Intelligent Design:

ok, my argument isn't that is shouldn't be taught. My argument is that it shouldn't be taught in Biology. Biology teaches evolution, not creation, because Biology is a science. If you want to teach it, don't put it in a "science" course.

Also, our ability to have conscious reasoning is an adaption given to us through evolution. Also, it isn't true that we're the only ones that have the reasoning ability. Ravens have shown this ability as well as other animals. Chimps use tools, which requires reasoning. We are not the only ones to be able to do this, which indicates evolution. Reasoning is a great skill granted to us so that we may become masters of any domain we wish. We are adaptive, and we are problem solvers. This is a good thing for us... as it's what's allowed us to beat out many of our primative competitors.
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Old 08-24-2005, 03:07 PM   #39
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Sorry but you are wrong no animal has conscious reasoning. They have learned behavior. There is a big difference. A monkey will repeat what he sees or he will do something and and after repeating it will remember. Having learning capacity and Creative consciousness is way different

No animal but Humans do any of the below stuff "Read the definition"

Consciousness; A sense of one's personal or collective identity, especially the complex of attitudes, beliefs, and sensitivities held by or considered characteristic of an individual or a group.

But I understand Jimmy If you want to be from monkeys then by all mean please claim them as your ancestors but please dont group me with them or I will go Ape ***** on you MUHAHAHAHHAHAHAA
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Old 08-24-2005, 03:30 PM   #40
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Dude
Sorry but you are wrong no animal has conscious reasoning. They have learned behavior. There is a big difference. A monkey will repeat what he sees or he will do something and and after repeating it will remember. Having learning capacity and Creative consciousness is way different

No animal but Humans do any of the below stuff "Read the definition"

Consciousness; A sense of one's personal or collective identity, especially the complex of attitudes, beliefs, and sensitivities held by or considered characteristic of an individual or a group.

But I understand Jimmy If you want to be from monkeys then by all mean please claim them as your ancestors but please dont group me with them or I will go Ape ***** on you MUHAHAHAHHAHAHAA
you realize a form of "higher intelligence" is recognizing yourself in a mirror?
Chimps, and some apes can do this. The science world is currently uncertain of the extent of the chimp's brain. Hell, we taught one sign language. I'm not putting them on the same level as us, however, to deny that they have "higher" intelligence isn't exactly a wise move.
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Old 08-24-2005, 03:50 PM   #41
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Re: Intelligent Design:

How do you know if an animal does, or does not, have counsciousness?
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Old 08-24-2005, 04:13 PM   #42
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
you realize a form of "higher intelligence" is recognizing yourself in a mirror?
Chimps, and some apes can do this. The science world is currently uncertain of the extent of the chimp's brain. Hell, we taught one sign language. I'm not putting them on the same level as us, however, to deny that they have "higher" intelligence isn't exactly a wise move.
Did you read what you wrote You Taught sign language to a Ape. Humans reasoned and consciously invented sign language. An ape could never invent sign language. Again you are confusing Learned knowledge and Conscious reasoning. Again you seem to group intelligence with Consciousness. Many animals are intelligent but they cannot even invent simple things a child can imagine and construct or build without being trained to do so.

Your ill fated attemps trying to prove me wrong are futile. I have heard lectures where Liberal Atheist scientist try to come up with answers only to say it was some randome chemical action to our ancestors that make us different than the other primates. Hell it tells me a Supernatural being must have been involved to put together a chemical reaction to make apes turn into humans!!!!

But please keep them coming I get a kick out of this stuff. Next
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Old 08-24-2005, 04:17 PM   #43
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1
How do you know if an animal does, or does not, have counsciousness?
Have you ever seen a ape get up and invent something on there own. No never happens. Apes have no belief system. Please read the definition of Consciousness again!!!

Here is what is funny all scientist both evolutionist or creationist agree animals do not have consciousness so what you or I think is moot. So arguing is absurd because you are wrong in everyones eyes
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Old 08-24-2005, 04:31 PM   #44
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
If Beaner took a picture of himself at his computer he could prove he was there.
no, that would not prove anything. for all i know that could be a picture of some random guy off the internet. Nobody can prove history, that's a fact. I'm not saying that proves or disproves anything.

did that monkey you taught sign language ever make a sentence of his own that made sense? did he ever ask you how you were doing?
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Old 08-24-2005, 06:19 PM   #45
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Re: Intelligent Design:

I wish I had the time to read all this.

I refuse to believe that, due to some random coincidence that involved countless things, we are here right now, the only known planet in the universe sustaining intelligent life.

I believe there are other life forms on other planets. Some sort of primitive bacteria or something, but I dunno about intelligent life. Yeah yeah, the universe is boundless, who knows if other intelligent forms exist, I can't prove it, blah blah. Neither can you, regardless of what you believe.

Brent, take a picture of the big bang for me.
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Old 08-24-2005, 06:34 PM   #46
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Re: Intelligent Design:

I also said chimps use tools. These would be in the form of sticks to get termites. There are birds that drop clams from high up to break their shells. There are relatives of the chimp that use large rocks to crush hard shells of fruits. These, while being learned, also show that somewhere along the line, there was a 'smart' animal that figured out, hey, if I take this TREE, and break off a small part, I can use that to get termites. Or, I can drop this clam, which I can't eat while it's alive, from very high up, and open it up, and then eat it. Or, I can get to the good tasting part of this fruit if I break it open with this previously useless rock.

Those show ingenuity. Sure, they aren't like building a skyscraper, however, where do children think to build tall building with their legos... they see it, and immitate it. While I realize chimps don't do mental processes like us, you must also realize that chimps do abstract paintings. Whether they're just scribble, or whether they're what the chimp is feeling, who knows... but they look like some human abstracts. My point is... if you don't expose someone to something, say art, they obviously wouldn't do it... or if they did, it would be very primative. If you expose someone to something, say pottery, it makes sense that they would try it, and with teaching, would get good at it. The fact that we learn much faster than other animals doesn't mean that they don't learn quickly, or lack the ability to learn. The way animals learn helps determine how smart they are. Memory is a very important key in both learning as well as abstract thought, or deeper thinking, which is indicative of consciousness. How long an animal can remember something then would also be a key into its brain, and how effective it may be for "conscious thought".

I know Corey will read this and say "you're talking about learning... not conscious thought". Well, learning is a part of conscious thought... notice I said learning is a part of conscious thought, and not conscious thought goes into learning. There is a difference. Learning is the base start of conscious thought. With learning, and past learned experiences, you form the base of what you are experiencing (called perception) at "the conscious level" (General Psych 101). Everything that thinks, and anticipates, and moves, and similar things must be "conscious" to even make it in our world. That doesn't mean they have to have conscious thought, like you're talking about. That is why I called it "higher thinking". Being conscious, defined by Psychology, means being aware of your surroundings, and being able to react in someway to it... (may have missed one definition... but I think that's it, defined by psychology, and simplified maybe a little). Therefore, almost all animals are conscious. So now that we have that established, we must define what you're thinking of when you say "consciousness". Consciousness is the state of being conscious. Therefore, if you are conscious, you have Consciousness. This would be true for animals as well.
Using that logic, animals have consciousness if they can interpret their environment, correctly perceive what is going on around them, and interact to what is going on. Arguing that animals are not conscious is a bad point to argue for the very simple things I presented. Calling it "conscious thought" is misleading. That implies thoughts had while you were conscious... which could be as simple as "that bird moved". Which animals certainly could think. I believe the correct expression should be "higher thoughts" because "higher thought" is needed to construct something. It is needed to think of something in depth. It is needed to problem solve in new situations. And yes, while it is a "conscious thought", it is so much more.

I realize most of you won't agree with this post, and most of those won't even read the whole thing... but if I am called out on my definitions, I will take a photo of my Psychology book where it defines this, and then Corey can get off my back . Afterall, Psychology is the study of the brain, and how it perceives things, as well as how it affects our interactions in the real world... what better place is there to get a definition for what some kind of thought is?

Also, I would post a pic of it now, but my dial-up is connected at 2.4 Kb/s! It took me almost 15 minutes to upload this page... and another 15 minutes to upload the main webpage.
So this is a half hour endevour, and I typed for roughly that, so you get an idea about the thought I put into the post (Corey). Especially when you asked if I read what I typed. I don't believe I have to read what I type, I know what I'm trying to say. You can get the general idea of where I'm going, and I'm sorry if it doesn't read like a doctoral speech, but that would bore the site to tears, and I'm not up for that kind of presentation.
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Old 08-24-2005, 08:19 PM   #47
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Re: Intelligent Design:

ok, chimps ability to look for and find food is natural. It did not take 1 million years for them to discover if they eat, they live longer. If you really "taught" the chimp sign language, did he make a sentence that made sense on his own? or did he just immitate you and match hand signals with words? the point that humans have a "higher level of thought" is obvious and i don't think any other position is tenable. I agree with Corey that humans have always been humans, regardless of the evolution of the species..
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Old 08-24-2005, 08:40 PM   #48
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Dude
Apes have no belief system.
How do you know?
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Old 08-24-2005, 09:33 PM   #49
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1
How do you know?
Because they dont have the ability to drive themselves to church!!!!!

Once again all primate scientist take this as a fact You guys are in denial. You are arguing for something that no one in the established scientific community believe. So please stop it with your baseless idea's. People much smarter than us have studied all the animals on earth and non are capable of conscious reasoning. Your wishful thinking will never make it so.


NO Jimmy you are a hard headed making jibberish statements about something the Scientific community has poven. If you want to beat a dead horse and believe the earth is flat then go ahead. You are just trying to prove a moot point and no matter what you think or say will only show how little you know about science and animal behavior. So I suggest you go to your local Biology professor and ask him He will tell you because I am thru with your rock head.
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Old 08-24-2005, 10:17 PM   #50
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteStang99
I wish I had the time to read all this.

I refuse to believe that, due to some random coincidence that involved countless things, we are here right now, the only known planet in the universe sustaining intelligent life.

I believe there are other life forms on other planets. Some sort of primitive bacteria or something, but I dunno about intelligent life. Yeah yeah, the universe is boundless, who knows if other intelligent forms exist, I can't prove it, blah blah. Neither can you, regardless of what you believe.

Brent, take a picture of the big bang for me.
I am not saying either one is right just telling Kyle that neither can be proven and that it is pointless that we are still talking about this lol
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Old 08-24-2005, 10:43 PM   #51
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Dude
Because they dont have the ability to drive themselves to church!!!!!

Once again all primate scientist take this as a fact You guys are in denial. You are arguing for something that no one in the established scientific community believe. So please stop it with your baseless idea's. People much smarter than us have studied all the animals on earth and non are capable of conscious reasoning. Your wishful thinking will never make it so.
I'm not arguing that they do. I'm just wanting you to prove that they don't. It seems utterly ridiculous for anyone to assume they know what it's like to be anything but themselves. You've never been anything but yourself, so I think you're totally unqualified to speak on behalf of anyone (anything) else's experience as a living, breathing, (and perhaps thinking) thing.
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Old 08-24-2005, 11:27 PM   #52
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleUSAF
ok, chimps ability to look for and find food is natural. It did not take 1 million years for them to discover if they eat, they live longer. If you really "taught" the chimp sign language, did he make a sentence that made sense on his own? or did he just immitate you and match hand signals with words? the point that humans have a "higher level of thought" is obvious and i don't think any other position is tenable. I agree with Corey that humans have always been humans, regardless of the evolution of the species..
it is as natural as our ability to be inquisitive... finding food is different than using a stick to actively get it. There is plenty to eat around the jungle. They eat the termites because they taste good, not as a substantial part of their diet.
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Old 08-24-2005, 11:29 PM   #53
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
it is as natural as our ability to be inquisitive... finding food is different than using a stick to actively get it. There is plenty to eat around the jungle. They eat the termites because they taste good, not as a substantial part of their diet.
How do you know they think they taste good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1
It seems utterly ridiculous for anyone to assume they know what it's like to be anything but themselves. You've never been anything but yourself, so I think you're totally unqualified to speak on behalf of anyone (anything) else's experience as a living, breathing, (and perhaps thinking) thing.
Continues the never ending pointless arguing
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Old 08-24-2005, 11:52 PM   #54
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Re: Intelligent Design:

there is no advantage to them eating them... thus, why would they go through the work?
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Old 08-24-2005, 11:58 PM   #55
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Re: Intelligent Design:

So you don't know, just like Corey doesn't know for 100% sure that they have a conscious, that they 100% sure eat them because they taste good. You are in essence making an guess based on the fact that they offer no nutrional value to the ape.

Which brings me to the point that we are arguing over something that can't be proven unless you can literally understand what is going on inside that apes head.
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Old 08-25-2005, 07:42 AM   #56
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1
I'm not arguing that they do. I'm just wanting you to prove that they don't. It seems utterly ridiculous for anyone to assume they know what it's like to be anything but themselves. You've never been anything but yourself, so I think you're totally unqualified to speak on behalf of anyone (anything) else's experience as a living, breathing, (and perhaps thinking) thing.
I never said I was qualified or a expert!!! I merely posted what the scientific community has stated and theorized. So dont shoot the messanger. My speciality is not Mammal brain studies it is Aircraft. However saying that science has studied brain activity and brain stimuli in animals for years. In there reasearch there is NO evidence that suggest mammal possess conscious reasoning and the definition of Consciousness defies anyone to do so.

So study the subject as I did then get back to me.
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Old 08-25-2005, 08:12 AM   #57
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Dude
In there reasearch there is NO evidence that suggest mammal possess conscious reasoning and the definition of Consciousness defies anyone to do so.

So study the subject as I did then get back to me.
http://www.phschool.com/science/scie...ure_minds.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_...ng_controversy
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/308650.html
http://www.americanscientist.org/tem.../assetid/35495


Looks like there is at least SOME evidence that they do.
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Old 08-25-2005, 08:33 AM   #58
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Re: Intelligent Design:

There is a select few who theorize that animals do. There are even way out there scientist who believe that Dolphins are smarter than us. There are others that dont believe Dinosaurs ever existed and believe doing a great flood it mixed up the bones of dirfferent creatures. So there is never 100% agreement on anything in life. Hell there are still fruit loops who believe we never went to the moon!!!!
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Old 08-25-2005, 08:45 AM   #59
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Dude
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Article
And an increasing number of researchers across disciplines would agree with you: They are trying to determine how—not whether—animals consciously process information about their social and nonsocial environments.
Looks like the researchers aren't all behind your no concious thought theory. I'll bet that none of them are behind the "No evidence" part of it. If there wasn't any evidence, there wouldn't be any controversy. You don't know, I don't know, the "experts" don't know. So don't spout it off as fact.
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Old 08-25-2005, 08:49 AM   #60
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1
Looks like the researchers aren't all behind your no concious thought theory. I'll bet that none of them are behind the "No evidence" part of it. If there wasn't any evidence, there wouldn't be any controversy. You don't know, I don't know, the "experts" don't know. So don't spout it off as fact.
ONCE AGAIN IT IS NOT MY THEORY !!! GOD YOU ARE EVEN MORE DENSE HEADED THAN JIMMY
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Old 08-25-2005, 09:11 AM   #61
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Re: Intelligent Design:

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Originally Posted by Danger Dude
ONCE AGAIN IT IS NOT MY THEORY !!! GOD YOU ARE EVEN MORE DENSE HEADED THAN JIMMY
You're the one that brought it to the table. Therefore, it is yours.
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Old 08-25-2005, 09:16 AM   #62
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Re: Intelligent Design:

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Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1
You're the one that brought it to the table. Therefore, it is yours.
I do believe what I brought to the table but it is not mine. That would be plagiarism. You are full of crap. People post what others say all the time it does not make it theirs as what you posted is not yours.

That about wraps it up. If you want to further discuss this yuo can PM me


Until then good day monkeyboy!!!
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Old 08-25-2005, 01:19 PM   #63
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Can we not call people monkey boy and tell them they are full of crap please?

Can't believe I just had to say that
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Old 08-25-2005, 01:28 PM   #64
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Re: Intelligent Design:

hahaha... also, it isn't being dense headed, or bullheaded, or whatever... there IS evidence of animals having conscious thought, we talk about it in PSYCHOLOGY, which is the study of the brain, and its interactions with everything... what better way than a college psych. class to get info on this? You'd prefer maybe to believe a website.... whopty, enjoy
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Old 08-25-2005, 01:54 PM   #65
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Re: Intelligent Design:

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Originally Posted by Brent
Can we not call people monkey boy and tell them they are full of crap please?

Can't believe I just had to say that
Why is that if a person believes we are from apes then by all recollection they are a monkey boy

Crap is crap
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Old 08-25-2005, 02:05 PM   #66
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Re: Intelligent Design:

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Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
hahaha... also, it isn't being dense headed, or bullheaded, or whatever... there IS evidence of animals having conscious thought, we talk about it in PSYCHOLOGY, which is the study of the brain, and its interactions with everything... what better way than a college psych. class to get info on this? You'd prefer maybe to believe a website.... whopty, enjoy
No not evidence theory. You forget Jimmy I went to college also and not that long ago. I dont listen to websites I will say once again you have a small group of athiest and Peta people trying to make a case for animals because it is there interest. Scientist who align themselves ith them agree with it have a agenda to promote animal rights or are trying desperately to discredit Christian scientist to promote their athiest beliefs. The very thing you attack christian science for you are now taking as word. You say that creation is bull but you try to say animals have reasoning and can plan their future and create and change their enviroment or have any type of belief system other than one which they trained to do. Wishful thinking.
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Old 08-25-2005, 03:17 PM   #67
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Dude
No not evidence theory. You forget Jimmy I went to college also and not that long ago. I dont listen to websites I will say once again you have a small group of athiest and Peta people trying to make a case for animals because it is there interest. Scientist who align themselves ith them agree with it have a agenda to promote animal rights or are trying desperately to discredit Christian scientist to promote their athiest beliefs. The very thing you attack christian science for you are now taking as word. You say that creation is bull but you try to say animals have reasoning and can plan their future and create and change their enviroment or have any type of belief system other than one which they trained to do. Wishful thinking.
not once did I say animals plan their future... not once did I say they have a belief system. I do believe animals learn to use tools, which can be either learned, or self taught. This changes their environment. I don't believe they make home made dams to plug rivers, you are putting words in my mouth, and I would appreciate it if you would STOP that, BY GOD! You have done it several times this thread. Just take what I say, nothing more.
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Old 08-25-2005, 03:22 PM   #68
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Re: Intelligent Design:

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Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
not once did I say animals plan their future... not once did I say they have a belief system. I do believe animals learn to use tools, which can be either learned, or self taught. This changes their environment. I don't believe they make home made dams to plug rivers, you are putting words in my mouth, and I would appreciate it if you would STOP that, BY GOD! You have done it several times this thread. Just take what I say, nothing more.

Jimmy Jimmy Jimmy Dont let what I say get to you. I like you. Just busting your balls slightly MUHAHAHHAHAHA BY GOD!!!!
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Old 08-25-2005, 03:25 PM   #69
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
not once did I say animals plan their future... not once did I say they have a belief system. I do believe animals learn to use tools, which can be either learned, or self taught. This changes their environment. I don't believe they make home made dams to plug rivers, you are putting words in my mouth, and I would appreciate it if you would STOP that, BY GOD! You have done it several times this thread. Just take what I say, nothing more.

Jimmy Jimmy Jimmy Dont leyt what I say get to you. I like you. Just busting your balls slightly MUHAHAHHAHAHA BY GOD!!!!

But what I said was the defination of conscious reasoning. That is all I am saying

Consciousness may be defined as an awareness of the self and/or the environment. Consciousness enables the individual to react to changes in the self and/or the environment.

Consciousness may have varying levels of organization. Individuals may be conscious, and yet may not be capable of organized thinking.

Conscious individuals react to changes in their own physical being, or to changes in the environment. Thus, consciousness attempts to organize the self and/or the environment.

Consciousness may include self-consciousness, i.e. awareness of an individual’s own existence as a conscious being. Self-consciousness may include the awareness which individuals have of their own thoughts and feelings.
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Old 08-25-2005, 08:11 PM   #70
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Dude
Jimmy Jimmy Jimmy Dont leyt what I say get to you. I like you. Just busting your balls slightly MUHAHAHHAHAHA BY GOD!!!!

But what I said was the defination of conscious reasoning. That is all I am saying

Consciousness may be defined as an awareness of the self and/or the environment. Consciousness enables the individual to react to changes in the self and/or the environment.

Consciousness may have varying levels of organization. Individuals may be conscious, and yet may not be capable of organized thinking.

Conscious individuals react to changes in their own physical being, or to changes in the environment. Thus, consciousness attempts to organize the self and/or the environment.

Consciousness may include self-consciousness, i.e. awareness of an individual’s own existence as a conscious being. Self-consciousness may include the awareness which individuals have of their own thoughts and feelings.
ooooooooook, we're gonna take one more crack at this same old argument.

#1 - I'm not really letting it get to me... I just like the expression "BY GOD", and you WERE adding words to what I was saying.

#2 - Consciousness may be defined as an awareness of the self and/or the environment. Consciousness enables the individual to react to changes in the self and/or the environment.

that is almost the definition I used.... but slightly different. Consciousness is the state of being conscious... In addition, did I not provide an example of how EVERY decent sized animal reacts to their environment. Also, for reacting to changes of self, think of a dog when it gets wounded. It will lick the wound, sterilizing it, limp on the injured leg, or may not use it at all, to allow it to heal better. I don't mean limp on it to help it heal, just that it isn't SO badly hurt they can't walk on it. However, if they did not react to this change, i.e. their hurt leg, they would continue to try to walk on it as they had before they hurt it. This seems like a stupid point to argue, but it's damn true .

#3 - Consciousness may have varying levels of organization. Individuals may be conscious, and yet may not be capable of organized thinking.

The state of being conscious very well has many different levels, I already said that. That's where I brought up "higher thinking". I said primative consciousness is what most animals have. If they didn't, they wouldn't be alive. Organized thinking is another thing you have to word carefully, and it helps to at least attempt a definition when you bring new words into the argument. To me, organized thinking would mean putting thoughts in order to come up with a reasonable outcome. I.e. a cat on top of a dresser, looking to see if they can make it on one jump safely onto the bed. This takes organized thought. The cat must realize how big the bed actually is, and then determine its depth by realizing how much its perception has changed the size of the bed. Then, the cat must realize its own limitations, account for slight slipping, as it won't get perfect traction on top of a slick dresser. The cat must PREDICT where it will land before it jumps to make sure it is in a safe location. All these thoughts are going through a cat's head... and after it gets good at doing this task, it becomes a subconscious task, for the most part... just like it would be for us, however, this does show organized thought, as I have defined it.

# 4 - Conscious individuals react to changes in their own physical being, or to changes in the environment. Thus, consciousness attempts to organize the self and/or the environment.

Your statement doesn't hold water with itself. They react to changes, sure, however, the next statement draws a conclusion off the previous statement, and the two aren't really related. Reacting to a change, and controlling it in the future are two different things. That's like me saying, I like to go down to my pond and fish, thus, I will like my trip to Minnesota. Yes, Minnesota has 10,000 some lakes, however, I'd imagine not all of them are fun to fish, and you may not be going there for fishing. Again, these probably seem like stupid points, but it does matter. Also, I do believe birds will throw stuff out of their nest, like rotten or hatched eggs (eggshells) so they don't draw predators to their nests... this is preventative, and is also attempting to control their environment. Also, ever seen an ant farm? How's that for organization?

#5 - Consciousness may include self-consciousness, i.e. awareness of an individual’s own existence as a conscious being. Self-consciousness may include the awareness which individuals have of their own thoughts and feelings. I brought this up earlier, when I mentioned a sign of higher intelligence is recognizing yourSELF in the mirror. This is "self conscious"... granted, the most primative form. As far as I know, we are the only species to understand the ramifications of death, and realize our own death is inevitable. This is one of the higher forms of higher thinking. I will give you the point that self consciousness is a form of higher thinking, however, I never disputed that. Then again, you must also grant me the fact that recognizing SELF in a mirror is a part of self consciousness, and thus, primative higher thinking.
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