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Old 08-23-2005, 08:16 AM   #1
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Intelligent Design:

A step forward.
A step backwards.

I was really beginning to gain alot of respect for Sen. Bill Frist as a man of science after he came out a few weeks ago in support of stem cell research. It really seemed like he was concerned with more than towing the party line. I'm a big fan of that. Then this morning I read an article about his support of teaching "Intelligent Design" in Biology classes. ID has no place in a science class. Science is supposed to be about observable evidence and experimentation. If a student wants to learn about ID, take a Theology course. The theory of evolution is the basis for modern biology!
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Old 08-23-2005, 12:42 PM   #2
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Re: Intelligent Design:

evolution isnt a theory, its a proven fact. not that we evolved per say, but ****evolves, like our appendix not being needed anymore, our tonsils having no use anymore, giraffes necks getting longer to reach leaves that are up high. i never understood the term 'theory of evolution' when a theory is something that hasnt been proven and evolution has been. I dont oppose frist talking about intelligent design if he was stating it as a theory just like man coming from dust or apes. these damn liberal teachers pretty much teach kids God doesnt exist so its good to let the kids know there are other ideas out there. if frist is saying there is for sure God, and the big bang theory is horse ****, then he is over stepping his boundaries
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:55 PM   #3
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Re: Intelligent Design:

our tonsils do have a use... that's why they wouldn't take mine out the last 4 times I got tonsilitus. They filter some infections or some crap like that.

ok, and I"m sorry, but "these damn liberal teachers"?... Science is science. God has no part in science because you can't detect God with ANYTHING... and that's what Science teaches. Maybe next time you decide to go on an anti-science rant, you should take some time to realize what science has given you. If you want to believe in God, and not in science, so be it, but don't go preaching it... it makes you sound... not so intelligently designed.
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Old 08-23-2005, 02:12 PM   #4
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Re: Intelligent Design:

you CAN NOT proove something by example that DOES NOT WORK EVER. A proof is not something that is just thrown around, its VERY hard to do... and very scientific and mathematical. Not saying it has not been proven of course... just cant go about it via example. I belive in evolution of course just saying proof is not via hey well just look at this. I wonder if they have actually done a proof for it.
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Old 08-23-2005, 02:31 PM   #5
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Re: Intelligent Design:

jimmy god cant be proven just like the big bang theory cant. neither one is more proven than the other. so you should teach BOTH sides of the story and let the kids decide which is right. saying we came from monkeys and dust and not telling the kids there is a possibility that isnt what happened is retarded. so leaving god out of the classroom is like forcing one opinion on people instead of giving them choices. in high school there arent any theology classes, god isn't welcome there, so im glad somebody has the balls to do whats right and offer another side to the story. and 'what evolutionary science has done for me' is nothing at all. name one thing it has done for me. medical science has, but that was driven by entrepeneurs looking to make money on curing people. and tonsils are useless, you do not need them. they remove them because tonsils can give you problems, the lack of tonsils will NEVER harm you.
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Old 08-23-2005, 02:38 PM   #6
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectorV
you CAN NOT proove something by example that DOES NOT WORK EVER. A proof is not something that is just thrown around, its VERY hard to do... and very scientific and mathematical. Not saying it has not been proven of course... just cant go about it via example. I belive in evolution of course just saying proof is not via hey well just look at this. I wonder if they have actually done a proof for it.
i agree Brandon, there isnt proof of creation by God or the big bang theory, its all speculation. evolution in itself has been proven by Darwin, finches growing longer beaks each generation to be able to reach food better was an example he put together. My point is when it comes time to teach kids where we came from, telling them it was the big bang theory as a matter of fact is wrong. There will never be proof of where we came, but its the right thing to do present the possibilities and let the kids decide.
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Old 08-23-2005, 05:32 PM   #7
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Tonsils are just infection farms.
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Old 08-23-2005, 05:38 PM   #8
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Re: Intelligent Design:

yeah to hell with tonsils. it might be a fun word to say, but its no fun getting STD's on your tonsils. found this interesting when i google searched tonsils

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Old 08-23-2005, 05:41 PM   #9
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Re: Intelligent Design:

^ lol, awesome.
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Old 08-23-2005, 06:05 PM   #10
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99CobraVert
i agree Brandon, there isnt proof of creation by God or the big bang theory, its all speculation. evolution in itself has been proven by Darwin, finches growing longer beaks each generation to be able to reach food better was an example he put together. My point is when it comes time to teach kids where we came from, telling them it was the big bang theory as a matter of fact is wrong. There will never be proof of where we came, but its the right thing to do present the possibilities and let the kids decide.
let me point out the errors in this statement for those that may not be that well read in the sciences.

#1 - there isnt proof of creation by God or the big bang theory, its all speculation

There IS evidence of the Big Bang Theory... also, the key word in what I said is "THEORY". It isn't being preached as "fact" as God is. According to the Theory, our universe started out almost infinitesimally small... about the size of the tip of a ball point pen. It then went kabloui, and gave rise to everything in our universe. That is the Theory... dumbed WAY down. We have a lot of evidence to support this.... like the galaxies spreading apart, even dispite gravitational attraction to each other, which supports a theory of a massive explosion.... I think you get it.

#2 - evolution in itself has been proven by Darwin

Darwin hypothesized this, he did NOT prove it.
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Old 08-23-2005, 06:17 PM   #11
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Re: Intelligent Design:

you can take a sample of the spectrum and you will find color variations, red and blue are the moving away/toward colors.

By proof, I ment something VERY mathematical and scientific. It is VERY hard to prove many things, VERY VERY. You have to show with out example that something is true... just try to show how 2 is even, or 2+2 comes out to be an even... and remember you can NOT use an example for this... give that one a go and then just imagine how hard it is to prove something like evolution.
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Old 08-23-2005, 06:55 PM   #12
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Why do you get so defensive Jimmy, I can start insulting you too but theres no reason for it. There is evidence of the big bang theory just like there is evidence of creation theory. both remain theory's because both can not be proven. Scientists can't explain where our soul's come from, and if you think explosions and gasses and the big bang theory resulted in having intelligent life forms with souls, then so be it but dont act like you are right and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong. Don't preach that BS on me when im not preaching God on you. Evidence of the big bang theory my ***. :yank:
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Old 08-23-2005, 06:58 PM   #13
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Don't get too personal guys. Keep it civil. Nobody has crossed a line yet, I just don't wanna see it happen.

Jimmy and I IMed for a while, and we don't exactly agree, but we see each other's side. I don't believe in the big bang theory.
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Old 08-23-2005, 07:14 PM   #14
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Yeah lets keep this civil! Don't hate me because Im a really good looking young man (that happens to have opposing idea's than some others). If i get ragged on some more i just may be forced to post some pics of me in a speedo doing some muscle poses, dont think i wont!
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Old 08-23-2005, 07:15 PM   #15
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99CobraVert
Yeah lets keep this civil! Don't hate me because Im a really good looking young man (that happens to have opposing idea's than some others). If i get ragged on some more i just may be forced to post some pics of me in a speedo doing some muscle poses, dont think i wont!
:banme:
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Old 08-23-2005, 07:21 PM   #16
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Re: Intelligent Design:

a lot of people PM'ed me and wanted to see it so here it is by popular demand
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Old 08-23-2005, 07:24 PM   #17
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Re: Intelligent Design:

*warns*





j/k. Quick PMers, lol.
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Old 08-23-2005, 07:27 PM   #18
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Re: Intelligent Design:

My proof for intelligent design lies beneath that loin cloth
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:18 PM   #19
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Re: Intelligent Design:

I take it none of you read Darwin's book. In his book he lays out what he would consider to be proof of it. One of the proofs he said would be found was substantially more intermediary steps of a specie's evolution than set categories. In other words evolution would show a linear progression of changes rather than the stair step changes we do see.

Said proof hasn't been found. That is why it is still a theory. As stated by others a theory is damned hard to change into a proof. Ever hear of the Pythagorus' theory? Been don't uncounted times for thousands of years and it has always work and it is still not a Proof.

The theory of evolution requires so many remote possibilities to fall into place in order for us to be where we are that if it were any other concept is would be called mathematically impossible to have occured.

But heathens will do what they can to "prove" God doesn't exist. They fear having to account for their actions.

Steve
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Holy crap he's right.
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:29 PM   #20
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Re: Intelligent Design:

nicely put ponycarman, but having said that, get ready for some flame for having an opinion.
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:33 PM   #21
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
our tonsils do have a use... that's why they wouldn't take mine out the last 4 times I got tonsilitus. They filter some infections or some crap like that.

ok, and I"m sorry, but "these damn liberal teachers"?... Science is science. God has no part in science because you can't detect God with ANYTHING... and that's what Science teaches. Maybe next time you decide to go on an anti-science rant, you should take some time to realize what science has given you. If you want to believe in God, and not in science, so be it, but don't go preaching it... it makes you sound... not so intelligently designed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
let me point out the errors in this statement for those that may not be that well read in the sciences.
umm...science is man's interpretation of nature. In this case, unless you believe humans are perfect, you cannot treat science as perfect! Frist and the president are saying we should not only teach evolution to kids, but that we should tell them some people believe in ID! Instead of teaching them only about evolution.
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:38 PM   #22
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponycarman
I take it none of you read Darwin's book. In his book he lays out what he would consider to be proof of it. One of the proofs he said would be found was substantially more intermediary steps of a specie's evolution than set categories. In other words evolution would show a linear progression of changes rather than the stair step changes we do see.

Said proof hasn't been found. That is why it is still a theory. As stated by others a theory is damned hard to change into a proof. Ever hear of the Pythagorus' theory? Been don't uncounted times for thousands of years and it has always work and it is still not a Proof.

The theory of evolution requires so many remote possibilities to fall into place in order for us to be where we are that if it were any other concept is would be called mathematically impossible to have occured.

But heathens will do what they can to "prove" God doesn't exist. They fear having to account for their actions.

Steve
I don't believe I have to account for my actions. Also, I'm not ragging on 99Cobra. Accounting for your actions means deep down, you regret doing something, or realize it was remotely wrong... thus, if you stop and think about it before you do it, you probably won't do it. I don't believe you have to go to church either. Why would God want you to believe just as everyone else, exactly. He made each of us unique, with unique minds... thus, why shouldn't we be allowed to "pray" in our own unique ways?

I never said I don't believe in God, I do believe it or not. I don't really believe a lot of the hype that goes along with 'religion' however.

I believe it's much more simple than most of you, however. Why can't God shape our lives indirectly? He can set into effect courses of action that will directly affect us, without us knowing it. Like, say you're trying to get to play college basketball, and a couple scouts are there watching you play, and you play AMAZING. This would be direct influence.... unless you were really good, however. What happens if all but one of those scouts goes to the next game to watch the next kid who is just out of this world. Then only one college wants you, and you go there, but being there, you learn exactly what you need to to make it to the pro's. This would be an example of divine intervention, but by an indirect means, because you had nothing to do with the other kid being great.

Or, natural events set in place that change lives. However, you can't believe everything religion feeds you. Remember Galileo, when he reported moons around Jupiter. He was FORCED by the church, else be excommunicated, to recant his report... and yet there are moons around Jupiter. Remember when the sun revolved around the Earth... yet we know this to not be true.

All I'm saying is don't believe everything you're fed by a source that's been proven incorrect so many times. The Bible says everything's only like 5,000 or so years old, maybe it's a little older than that, but we have evidence of it back billions of years. And by evidence, I mean scientific tests, and if you don't count that as evidence, please don't reply because people that say "well God placed it there already aged" really really piss me off. By not allowing science into your life, you are cutting out a very important piece of our existance. God wanted us to learn about our environment, He wanted us to master it.... and we do this with science. To refuse science is to deny God the pleasure of watching us use the brain He designed for US!



just my $0.02
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:41 PM   #23
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleUSAF
umm...science is man's interpretation of nature. In this case, unless you believe humans are perfect, you cannot treat science as perfect! Frist and the president are saying we should not only teach evolution to kids, but that we should tell them some people believe in ID! Instead of teaching them only about evolution.
whoa whoa whoa, I never said science was perfect. Science allows for itself to be inaccurate. That's why we don't allow theories to become "fact" often. However, at least science presents hard evidence to its theories. To say "the Bible says so" is no reason to teach it as fact, or even a decent theory. If you want to learn intelligent design, go to church. Biology should have no part of intelligent design because Biology is a SCIENCE, and in science, you must back up what you say with fact/evidence.

Also, did he use the word "tell" them about Intelligent Design? Because when I heard it, I heard the word "teach".
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:44 PM   #24
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99CobraVert
nicely put ponycarman, but having said that, get ready for some flame for having an opinion.
I never once flamed you. I didn't attack you, I "attacked" your opinion. That is allowed, it's called disagreeing. Flaming would be like if I said: you dumb _________________. Fill in the blank with your favorite curse. I didn't do anything like that. I pointed out the falacies of your statement, yes, because they were just that.
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:49 PM   #25
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99CobraVert
Why do you get so defensive Jimmy, I can start insulting you too but theres no reason for it. There is evidence of the big bang theory just like there is evidence of creation theory. both remain theory's because both can not be proven. Scientists can't explain where our soul's come from, and if you think explosions and gasses and the big bang theory resulted in having intelligent life forms with souls, then so be it but dont act like you are right and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong. Don't preach that BS on me when im not preaching God on you. Evidence of the big bang theory my ***. :yank:
#1 - I never insulted you

#2 - What evidence is there of creation? (I presented at least one piece of evidence for the Big Bang in the expanding galaxies... which is currently happening)

#3 - Science makes no claim of people having souls, thus, they don't have to explain it.

#4 - Big Bang Theory helps account for why the universe is so spread out, as well as where the heavy elements come from. (Heavy being larger than say 8 protons in the nucleus)

#5 - I didn't say because you don't believe me, you're wrong. Also, I'm not preaching it, I'm presenting facts or theories, and at least disproving some of the stuff you post that I know isn't true.
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:52 PM   #26
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
To say "the Bible says so" is no reason to teach it as fact, or even a decent theory.
nobody's saying it is fact. You sound like Thomas Jefferson saying you believe parts of the Bible and taking out others. Theology is man's interpretation of the Bible, so no denomination is going to be perfect.

im not gonna get any deeper tonight..i gotta get up at 5
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:54 PM   #27
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
#2 - What evidence is there of creation?
the universe.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:02 PM   #28
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Re: Intelligent Design:

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Originally Posted by KyleUSAF
the universe.
gonna have to disagree. Pointing to something and saying "look, God made that" doesn't make it evidence. Sure, it came from somewhere, that doesn't mean a Godly figure put it there. There's a theory that says a tear in the space-time continuom caused all the matter in this universe, as well as parallel universes.. the fact that there's currently a universe doesn't support that theory...
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:12 PM   #29
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Re: Intelligent Design:

^ Got a point and I agree with that statement.

God cant be proven

Evolution cant be proven.

You just take what evidence you have on both and make your own judgement. There can not be a right and wrong where fact doesnt exist.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:13 PM   #30
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Re: Intelligent Design:

im not gonna say God can be scientifically proven. You can't prove that you sat at your computer at 10:02 and typed that last message. Prove to me that you were at your computer today. you can't. So you should not say God did not create anything b/c i can't prove it. history can't be proven..going to bed
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:18 PM   #31
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Re: Intelligent Design:

^ That arguement doesnt hold up. You cant prove he exists just as much as Beaner can't prove he doesn't.

If Beaner took a picture of himself at his computer he could prove he was there.

Take a picture of god and get back to me.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:37 PM   #32
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Re: Intelligent Design:

im off to go get some from mrs. 99cobravert, but i thought i'd give one last post. Everyone is making my point by there are different opinions on how we came to be so why should we only teach kids one opinion? Seperation of church and state is not an answer, its seperation, not a wall. Thomas Jefferson never intended for it to be an outrage to mention God in a classroom. When seperation of church and state was created it was because there were many state-run churches at the time and the framers of the constitution didnt want churches getting too powerful (common in Europe). You can interpret the constitution different ways, but reading Jeffersons letters it is plain to see why he thought the first amendment was necessary. And Jimmy you are ragging on me by saying my statements are falacies. you aren't disproving anything i say, just disagreeing (though you try to use the big bang theory to disprove what i say). So dont act like you are smarter than me (which you clearly are) because you are not. And for science not making any claim of souls, so they dont have to explain it? come ON! its very convenient for them to disregard souls when its common sense we have them. I have had a few professors in SCIENCE classes (anthropology and psychology) that have admitted to souls being an unexplainable existing phenomenon. But anyways whats the use, nobody's minds are gonna change, nobody in this forum is gonna pursuade anyone of anything, all we can do it **** and moan. I guess i just hate being told my opinions are wrong when they are not in sync with someone elses.
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Old 08-23-2005, 09:37 PM   #33
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Re: Intelligent Design:

I was watching a discussion with renound atheist talk show host Tom Likas and a theologian that I dont remember the name of and they were discussing the very same thing and the stumbing block for evolution based science is Consciousness No other creature has it. All the animals of the earth have a natural behavior none have a conscious reasoning. That seperates us from all living creatures. Apes do not posesses it nor do dolphins. We are alone in this. This Consciousness is also talked about in the Bible. And God say "Man shall have dominion over all the beast of the world" and he gave us something no other creature has FREEWILL.


Now does evolution exist on this planet SURE everything evolves but the starting point with man is man and not APE. Plain and simple Gorilla's still have not after 60,000 years even made a simple tool out of rock !!!! In 60,000 years man went from living in a cave to landing on the moon and building spacecrafts to land on Mars. What has any other mammal created????? NOTHING!!!!

So the Science lesson for today is about CONSCIOUSNESS

Consciousness; A sense of one's personal or collective identity, especially the complex of attitudes, beliefs, and sensitivities held by or considered characteristic of an individual or a group.
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:10 PM   #34
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Re: Intelligent Design:

i think it should be taught but not in science(since science is based on facts)

but i really dont care either way, im out of school so it doesnt bother me, and my kids will be home schooled so i can teach them whatever i want them to know.
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Old 08-23-2005, 10:22 PM   #35
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Re: Intelligent Design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent

God cant be proven

Evolution cant be proven.
sorry guys Brent is THE smartest person on the board right now.


I believe in God and this is my personal opinion we all have free will and you can believe anything you want but that won't save your soul. However here is my twist to both of these theorys. It is my humble opinion that God used evolution to get us where we are now. Evolution is real period, not the theory of evolution thats something entirelly different its true that we don't use out pinky(little) toe so in a few thousand years we may lose it but then again i'm just a kid(17) so what do i know?
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