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Old 03-18-2006, 11:36 PM   #141
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by Seph
But apparently Christianity isn't a use of control? Believe in God or you'll go to hell. Sounds pretty controling to me

But here is the catch for God. He gave us free will we can choose??? There is no determining who goes to heaven and who does not. That is up to God!!! You really dont like there being consequences to your actions. I guess I wouldn't either if I did not believe
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Old 03-18-2006, 11:43 PM   #142
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by Danger Dude
You use blurps of atheist rants.
Huh? These are my words, my beliefs, and what i think and feel, this has nothing to do with athiest BS. I dont believe in organized religion AT ALL, and calling me "atheist" or saying i use "athiest" rants actually irritates me, because after all, athiesim (however you spell it) is considered a religion by man.

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The Bible has never been revised only misinterpreted by people who dont want there to be consequences to their actions or people who use people's ignorance of the Bible or Quoran to manipulate them into being subservant to a man made prophet and create acts of atrocities or mass murder in the name of religion.
Then explain the King James Bible. A revised bible. Explain how much was lost in translation when the Hebrew bible was translated to english.

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Please I say again dont refer to Faith as a religion.
This actually made me laugh a little. Without a religion, would anyone have faith? What do you have faith in with no religious backing?

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First off it is not the Egyptians with the strange picture carvings it is the Inca's, Aztec's and Mayans
*shrugs*

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Sorry Europeans have always know of Africa and Asia!!!! Morocco is just across the Mediterranean from Europe and they are black!!!
And you know this because you were kicking it with Napolean back when he was on a ship? There was a time Europeans didnt have the ships, and didnt have ways to discover other civilization, so i guess even before they were able to discover people of color, they knew only white. Throw out facts from books all you want, no one will truly know anything about the past.


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The medievel era was the dark ages where people used man made religion to murder and kill innocent people who did not conform.
Which you basically conveyed my point.

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Once Man steps in and creates a governing body in a religious group it becomes corrupt. Follow no man with your faith in God.
If thats the case, why do we have people such as the Pope, and religious leaders? Religion is corrupt no matter how you look at it. I wont explain why i feel this way because youll have something else to say to try to prove me wrong.

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So you follow the writings of Atheist scientist who are also flawed. I find it so ironic that the people who profess to be to smart to have faith in God follow the belief's and writing of other people. So it is strange simply because they have faith in human science that is only theory and constantly being revised!!!
I dont follow any writings. Try again. This is out of my mouth, this is my own words. I follow no man, no being, no God, nothing. Try to classify me as "athiest" as you want, as i follow no book.

Im out of this discussion, its a waste of time.
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Old 03-19-2006, 12:00 AM   #143
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by Seph
Do you ever think about where an ant would go when you kill it? Do you have feelings for garbage when you burn it? You cease to exist, everything goes black and you die. That's my feelings at least. It would be nice to believe that when you die you go to a happy awsome place, it would make dying easier.

Then again you'll have to follow certain rules all your life or you go to hell. Living in constant fear of going to hell, one hell of a way to convert the unbelievers eh? You simply stop living. What happens when you sleep? Your brain is still slightly active giving you dreams. You die, your brain isn't active, thusly you don't dream. You think, see, hear, feel nothing.

You simply die and stop existing.
So then, what is the point? If one day you will cease to exist in all forms, why live with any standards or morals at all? Get what you want. Take what you need. Do everything you can to better your existence without regard to others. After all, all we are is a random combination of chemicals that has eventually evolved into a fairly complex organism. Who cares about your fellow man?

The only consequences you will ever face are those here on Earth. Cheat, lie, steal, murder, rape. Just don't get caught. You will never be judged at any point. Survival of the strongest, the weak don't deserve to live. All they do is take away from what could be yours. Do everything you can to make yourself happy in this small amount of time you are given. Who cares what anyone else wants or needs? They are of no importance to you. They will only get in your way.

Why should you care about anything or anyone else? Why do you sometimes go out of your way to help others? Why do you have respect for others?

Remember, you are just an organism here on Earth. No different from any other. Bacteria, viruses, plants, dogs, ants ( ), mold, maggots, spiders, snakes... it doesn't matter. You are no different from them. You are just an organism that resulted from years of "random" evolution that occured simply because of the laws of nature and the resulting environments that affected your genetic ancestors all the way back to the first single celled organism to be "alive".

And what is life then? How are you really different from, say, water? Or a rock? Or dirt? They are all just chemicals too. Atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, whatever. Nothing meaningful. They are all just the random results of physics and science. You are in no shape, form, or fashion different then any object on the planet. Just an arrangement of molecules.

You live. You die. That's it. Game over.

Do you see where this kind of thinking could lead? Even if there is no God and millions of people have spent there lives worshipping an entity that does not exist, at least they believed in something. Something that gave them hope and a reason to respect their fellow man. Without this we become nothing more than animals, looking out for no one but ourselves. We become nothing more than a bunch of atoms, trying to sustain "life".

And I better stop now or I'll end up typing all night. Anyway, I hope someone find this post at least somewhat interesting or amusing or entertaining or something positive. Just trying to help my fellow man. Not really sure why yet... but it surely can't hurt to try.

BTW, I don't mean any offense to those who do believe in evolution. I'll admit, it makes a lot more "sense" than anything else. :dunno:

.... Yet somehow it doesn't make "sense" at all...
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Old 03-19-2006, 12:35 AM   #144
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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I have a question for those who believe that there is no supreme being. If you believe there is no supreme being, what do you believe happens when you die? Do you simply cease to exist?
in my opinion, your state of hapiness echoes an eternity. so if you lived a good live and know you lived a good live, you will echo an eternity of hapiness. if you had a ****ty life and commited suicide in your darkest moment then you will echo an eternity fo darknetss.

im waste dright now. im sorry i apoligze.
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Old 03-19-2006, 12:49 AM   #145
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

i'm gonna jump in neck-deep here... i believe that evolution is god's plan

ever heard the saying that a human life is shorter than the blink of an eye for the universe? well, if god created the universe, then wouldn't seven days for god equate to unknown eons of time.. and, dare i say it... evolution? perhaps the ultimate factor in every universal event really is god, or yah'weh... hell, even the force lol... maybe every evolutionary event up to the creation of humans was nudged into place by god? but when we were nudged into place, he gave us free will and we went and ****ed everything up, so he had to put a counterplan into place (i.e.- heaven vs hell) to try to guide us back into the light without taking our free will away... sounds reasonable to me

and as for "direct divine influence" ... we all know that if someone made that claim today, they'd be thrown into a padded room and given shock therapy... and forgive me, but i have great difficulty trusting any religion where the priests molest little boys... something they picked up from their roman converts? or more likely, their roman overlords? don't forget that christianity was formed when the roman empire was the pinnacle of civilization.. the romans tried to suppress christianity for almost 500 years, torturing and killing followers just like they did christ... this only changed when the roman emperor constantine himself converted to christianity and formed the roman catholic church ("catholic" by the way, is the old greek word for "universal") clearly, the romans wanted to control this new religion for their own benefit.. and they did, through the crusades and all the way up through the dark ages to the Renaissance, when the average man began to seek new answers

but getting back to trusting religion, who really knows that priests haven't been molesting kids all the way back to the days of the romans? (or even farther) could you, should you, trust a religion that was spawned from that? i certainly don't.. especially when the romans added in pieces of other religions when they created their church... try this for example...

1)why do we celebrate christ's birthday on christmas when the original aramaic bible clearly states that he was born in late spring?

2)why do we celebrate it on the specific date of december 25th? becuz the greek god dionysus had that birthday...

3) where does the catholic image of god (wizened old man with a beard and long robes) come from? ~the greek image of zeus was identical

4) why do we even call him "jesus christ"? that sooo wasnt his real name... it was actually ya'shua mosiach. traditional hebrew name... "jesus" is actually a greek transliteration.. comes from y'seus or "praise zeus" damn that constantine was a tricky bastid... christ is, of course, the jewish word for "messiah"

and while i'm on this subject, all through the old testament, they seem to repeat the phrase "i am a jealous god" ...who in existance does god have to be jealous of? you'd think, being the creator of all things, he'd be fully capable of snuffing any opposition before they became too powerful... so why is he jealous? who is he jealous of?

and please, don't try to tell me i'm some athiest or evolutionist. i believe that the odd that the creation of the universe was random are so long that the only way it could have happened was with a nudge from some all powerful source. i've read about many of the western religions and a couple of eastern religions and have noticed a lot of similarities, and also a lot of things that seem designed by man to control the mind. so i'm trying to seperate the truth from the scheme

*waits for the flaming*
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Old 03-19-2006, 01:06 AM   #146
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by bbunt302
So then, what is the point? If one day you will cease to exist in all forms, why live with any standards or morals at all? Get what you want. Take what you need. Do everything you can to better your existence without regard to others. After all, all we are is a random combination of chemicals that has eventually evolved into a fairly complex organism. Who cares about your fellow man?
Because there needs to be order for us all to live. Who cares about your fellow man? Other fellow man who want to further our existence.

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The only consequences you will ever face are those here on Earth. Cheat, lie, steal, murder, rape. Just don't get caught. You will never be judged at any point. Survival of the strongest, the weak don't deserve to live. All they do is take away from what could be yours. Do everything you can to make yourself happy in this small amount of time you are given. Who cares what anyone else wants or needs? They are of no importance to you. They will only get in your way.
Exactly, why else do people steal murder cheat lie and rape? They prayed to God that things would come to them, but recieving no hints of anything from God they have to do things on their own. Of course those who help themselves will be given anything right?

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Why should you care about anything or anyone else? Why do you sometimes go out of your way to help others? Why do you have respect for others?
Because some people are good in life, that's why we have "Friends" I have respect for others for doing nice deeds in life. I respect those people in life who don't go off and do horrible things to other people. I respect all of you guys with the exception of a few Kiddin.

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Remember, you are just an organism here on Earth. No different from any other. Bacteria, viruses, plants, dogs, ants ( ), mold, maggots, spiders, snakes... it doesn't matter. You are no different from them. You are just an organism that resulted from years of "random" evolution that occured simply because of the laws of nature and the resulting environments that affected your genetic ancestors all the way back to the first single celled organism to be "alive".
Yup! It's amazing too that the chances of our existence is so small and yet here we are. Relate me to a maggot, a tree, a whale, anything. We all have so many things in common. Living, eating, dying. Why not a pig? A pig has the same features as a human in it's body, so what was God's plan there then? Create this ugly creature with the same organs and such as a human. Sounds off to me.

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And what is life then? How are you really different from, say, water? Or a rock? Or dirt? They are all just chemicals too. Atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, whatever. Nothing meaningful. They are all just the random results of physics and science. You are in no shape, form, or fashion different then any object on the planet. Just an arrangement of molecules.
Yes! Exactly! It's that simple! Those things are here, therefore we are here. We aren't meaningful, but we are trying to find meaning. Then we have people who are totally against that and believe meaning is already there, and in a higher power we could never understand. If someone has a dollar in their hand and it suddenly turns into a 5 dollar bill, just randomly like if you were eating lunch you'd laugh and say magic. What if that was God?

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You live. You die. That's it. Game over.

Do you see where this kind of thinking could lead? Even if there is no God and millions of people have spent there lives worshipping an entity that does not exist, at least they believed in something. Something that gave them hope and a reason to respect their fellow man. Without this we become nothing more than animals, looking out for no one but ourselves. We become nothing more than a bunch of atoms, trying to sustain "life".
They can believe in anything, including the non existence of God. We give ourselves hope! Look into yourself, look into your fellow man for hope! Has our technology improvement not amazed you to give hope into man kind? Has our exploration in medicine and space not given you anything? Why do we have instinct? We are animals. Mammals have eyes, lungs, limbs, a heart? We know how they evolved, why is it so hard to see that those similarities don't match up with us?

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BTW, I don't mean any offense to those who do believe in evolution. I'll admit, it makes a lot more "sense" than anything else. :dunno:

.... Yet somehow it doesn't make "sense" at all...
Naw it's cool man, these talks make us all step forward rather than standing still and not moving because of our beliefs. If we didn't talk things over, we are no better than the Muslim extremists.
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Old 03-19-2006, 01:22 AM   #147
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by Danger Dude
But here is the catch for God. He gave us free will we can choose??? There is no determining who goes to heaven and who does not. That is up to God!!! You really dont like there being consequences to your actions. I guess I wouldn't either if I did not believe
so i have the free will to choose, but if i make the wrong choice, by means of misinformation and confusion, i'll still be sent to hell? or will i be sent back to try again? or maybe god will be able to see into my heart and know that i really did try to make the right choice, and thought i had, only to die and find i was wrong, and will let me into heaven anyway?

for someone of "non-denomination" you sure talk like a heaven or bust catholic
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Old 03-19-2006, 10:09 AM   #148
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by dark
so i have the free will to choose, but if i make the wrong choice, by means of misinformation and confusion, i'll still be sent to hell? or will i be sent back to try again? or maybe god will be able to see into my heart and know that i really did try to make the right choice, and thought i had, only to die and find i was wrong, and will let me into heaven anyway?

for someone of "non-denomination" you sure talk like a heaven or bust catholic
I am not that sure of Heaven or Hell in the sense most people believe. I dont believe in the fluffy cloud in the sky with harps and wings. Once we leave our physical state our souls become part of a great collective energy. There is a positive and a negative energy. Determining who's soul goes where is not up to me and I am not sure of the exact requirements. I dont believe people who are good in nature but lived where they weren't given the word of God will go to hell. I am not in the belief it is that cut and dry. I also think you create your own hell, stuck in a consciousness without a physical body tormented by the vises, nightmares and evils one carry's on with in life with no ending or hell could be a really bad amusement park with crappy rides and bad food but you never get to leave and there are no bathrooms.
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Old 03-19-2006, 05:04 PM   #149
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by Seph
But apparently Christianity isn't a use of control? Believe in God or you'll go to hell. Sounds pretty controling to me
Well, some people just don't like the think that their actions have consequences. So they justify it to themselves or claim that there are no consequences at all.
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Old 03-19-2006, 05:07 PM   #150
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by Tbird232ci
I dont follow any writings. Try again. This is out of my mouth, this is my own words. I follow no man, no being, no God, nothing. Try to classify me as "athiest" as you want, as i follow no book.

Im out of this discussion, its a waste of time.
Well what in the world else are you. The definition of atheist is "A"= no or non, "The" = God, "ist" = believer or practitioner. And that is most certainly not a religion.

If you won't read the whole thread and will come in here with guns blazing, I wish you would leave it.
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Old 03-19-2006, 05:13 PM   #151
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

Once again, I have to agree with bbunt.
Without faith in God, you have no real reason to have any morals, without morals, you have no consequences for your actions, without consequences, you have no reason to do anything but what furthers you and your endevours. With all this, you are no different than an animal that will eat it's young to further it's own survival. I'm not a humanist, but I do at least have enough respect for us as a race to believe that we are more intelligent, as a result more powerful, have a greater capacity to love (and hate), and therefor have a greater obligation to have morals. Without believing in God, why do you have to be a moral person other than just to keep from being put in jail?
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Old 03-19-2006, 08:19 PM   #152
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by DarkShadow
Once again, I have to agree with bbunt.
Without faith in God, you have no real reason to have any morals, without morals, you have no consequences for your actions, without consequences, you have no reason to do anything but what furthers you and your endevours. With all this, you are no different than an animal that will eat it's young to further it's own survival. I'm not a humanist, but I do at least have enough respect for us as a race to believe that we are more intelligent, as a result more powerful, have a greater capacity to love (and hate), and therefor have a greater obligation to have morals. Without believing in God, why do you have to be a moral person other than just to keep from being put in jail?

If all of that were true, then how come atheists aren't going out right now destroying everything, stealing, and doing all that? I see more people on COPS with crosses around their necks as they run from the police, to the crosses dangling on their rear view as they try to out run the cops after a robbery or a burglary.

Even people who don't believe in God lead perfectly normal lives. The only difference? When they help people across the street for the good of that person, it isn't something in the back of their head "Oh, what would God do? Will this good deed be seen by God?" They do it because they can.

On another note, today they had a special on squirrels. Why is that so important? I remember something about how squirrels are getting bigger in size, and as they get bigger in size, %15 of their brain increases. Maybe that's the missing link between us and Apes. We just evolved so much quicker than expected, JUST like how squirrels are evolving at such a quick rate, finding an inbetween we be very hard to near impossible after the thousands of years we had evolved.
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Old 03-19-2006, 08:27 PM   #153
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by DarkShadow
Once again, I have to agree with bbunt.
Without faith in God, you have no real reason to have any morals, without morals, you have no consequences for your actions, without consequences, you have no reason to do anything but what furthers you and your endevours. With all this, you are no different than an animal that will eat it's young to further it's own survival. I'm not a humanist, but I do at least have enough respect for us as a race to believe that we are more intelligent, as a result more powerful, have a greater capacity to love (and hate), and therefor have a greater obligation to have morals. Without believing in God, why do you have to be a moral person other than just to keep from being put in jail?
Well, I must admit that Seph countered my points extremely well. If you think about it, what he says makes sense. It's all about survival of the fittest, and being the intelligent beings we are, we are able to realize that our chances of survival our better if we work together and respect one another. Not just our survival though, really it is more about our happiness. After all, sometimes to simply survive isn't enough. We all want more than that.

I'm not saying I agree with what he believes or that he's going to change what I believe (I can be very stubborn), but he does make an extremely valid point.

On a slightly related topic, consider this... do Christians at least try to follow God's Word because it's the right thing to do, or is it because they are trying to ensure their own eternal happiness? In other words, are we truely trying to love our fellow man or are we still simply looking out for ourselves, trying to "survive eternally"?

I'll go ahead and say that I believe this is a big part of what separates those who go to church on Sunday and "say" they believe from those who are "true" Christians. This is part of my very slight disdain for organized religion (I'm not one to refuse to go to church on Sunday, but I also don't feel a particular need to do so every week). Maybe I'm wrong for feeling this way, but like I said, I can be very stubborn.

EDIT:

I didn't see this before I posted, but I think it goes along perfectly with what I was saying. Great minds think alike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph
Even people who don't believe in God lead perfectly normal lives. The only difference? When they help people across the street for the good of that person, it isn't something in the back of their head "Oh, what would God do? Will this good deed be seen by God?" They do it because they can.
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Old 03-19-2006, 08:48 PM   #154
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by Danger Dude
As far as the known world at the time of the building of the tower of Babel all spoke the same language and had the same desire to build a tower to heaven to see GOD. God was not amused!!!
but God "knew" it was going to happen. It wasn't like the moment that started building the "tower" that he was like "OMG... Did not see that one coming..."
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Old 03-19-2006, 08:50 PM   #155
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Without believing in God, why do you have to be a moral person other than just to keep from being put in jail?
That is the only reason...
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Old 03-19-2006, 08:51 PM   #156
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

i agree completely with bbunt.
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Old 03-19-2006, 08:56 PM   #157
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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but God "knew" it was going to happen. It wasn't like the moment that started building the "tower" that he was like "OMG... Did not see that one coming..."
I'll admit that I am not a Biblical expert, so something in there may contradict what I'm about to say.

The way I always viewed it was that God does indeed "know all". At least all that can be known. He has seen the past, and he sees the present. However, He cannot see the future. He has given us free will, and therefore, cannot be sure what road we will take. Still, He knows our inner thoughts and sees our true being. This gives Him a very good idea then of what we will do, but there is always a chance that humanity will surprise Him.

So basically, He doesn't know the future. But, due to the knowledge He does have, He can predict it with an amazing amout of certainty. Although... given the loving and hopeful view of God given in the Bible, I would not be surprised if He is often overly optimistic of the choices we will make, and therefore often disappointed.

This is just the way I always imagined the Christian God. I could be way off.

BTW, I do believe this is the best thread I have ever participated in. Kudos to everyone for being respectful of others views, while at the same time not being afraid to debate them with your own.
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Old 03-19-2006, 09:45 PM   #158
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Originally Posted by bbunt302
I'll admit that I am not a Biblical expert, so something in there may contradict what I'm about to say.

The way I always viewed it was that God does indeed "know all". At least all that can be known. He has seen the past, and he sees the present. However, He cannot see the future. He has given us free will, and therefore, cannot be sure what road we will take. Still, He knows our inner thoughts and sees our true being. This gives Him a very good idea then of what we will do, but there is always a chance that humanity will surprise Him.

So basically, He doesn't know the future. But, due to the knowledge He does have, He can predict it with an amazing amout of certainty. Although... given the loving and hopeful view of God given in the Bible, I would not be surprised if He is often overly optimistic of the choices we will make, and therefore often disappointed.

This is just the way I always imagined the Christian God. I could be way off.

BTW, I do believe this is the best thread I have ever participated in. Kudos to everyone for being respectful of others views, while at the same time not being afraid to debate them with your own.
When I went to church as a kid I was always taught to believe God knows all and that he knows the future.

I will admit religion was a big turn off for me on the God thing. However I still can not imagine a supreme being that made us and now he gets to decide if we suffer after we die or if we get to chill with him.
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Old 03-19-2006, 09:55 PM   #159
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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That is the only reason...
std's? why is there shame for people who don't believe this stuff if they get someone pregnant? why would their wife be mad at them? :dunno:
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Old 03-19-2006, 10:01 PM   #160
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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std's? why is there shame for people who don't believe this stuff if they get someone pregnant? why would their wife be mad at them? :dunno:
There are already people like that with religion in existence. It's called mental problems and selfishness
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Old 03-19-2006, 10:05 PM   #161
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

I have to question whether Catholics get into heaven or not. I think it's catholics at least? How they also pray to the Virgin Mary and such. If God wouldn't want anyone else to be prayed to, then what will happen to them?

Or the Jews for that matter? They don't believe in Hell, thusly they don't go to hell? It's like they are gaurnteed to have an entrance into heaven with God. They don't have to believe in God, just having Jewish blood in them gaurntees their entrance. At least that's what I heard from a few jews in my time.
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Old 03-19-2006, 10:12 PM   #162
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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I'm not saying I agree with what he believes or that he's going to change what I believe (I can be very stubborn), but he does make an extremely valid point.
Naw it's cool man, we all have our different views and we are all pretty stubborn when it comes to the afterlife and creation. Heck, we are only human and for all we know, we might be the only race in the universe asking that question. What's important is, we are discussing it rather than fighting about it.

I do have a question though, what about those people who believe God will love all and forgive all and you won't go to hell? It's odd is all.
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Old 03-19-2006, 10:49 PM   #163
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

Of course God knows the future. He told John what to write in the book of Revelation. He is omnipotent-all powerful, omniscient-all knowing, and omnipresent-every where at once.

As far as the Catholics and Jews go, I don't agree with praying to Mary and don't believe that she was a perpetual virgin, for the simple fact that Jude was called Jesus' half brother because Joseph was Jude's father. She didn't just have him.

As for the Jews, they don't even believe that Jesus was any more than a good person or a prophet. And for the longest time, hard core Judaists called him a blasphemer for calling himself God. So as far as they are concerned they are still waiting for the "true Messiah". And just because they are Jewish does not guarantee them entrance into heaven. They are mearly his chosen people.

I also have to say this has been a very interesting thread, and thoroughly appreciate everone's respectfulness and hope I convey this in my posts.
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Old 03-19-2006, 11:11 PM   #164
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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Of course God knows the future. He told John what to write in the book of Revelation. He is omnipotent-all powerful, omniscient-all knowing, and omnipresent-every where at once.
He knows how he is going to bring an end to our world, but does that mean he knows the future of each of our souls? If so then why go through the pain and suffering that is often so prevalent in this existence? Why not just send us to heaven or hell and be done with it?

It just seems to me that if he gave us free will to choose our own destinies that it would be impossible to know.

Do you happen to have any scriptures from the Bible that indicate that he knows the future? It's not that I don't believe you or that I don't think it's in there. It's just that as I said earlier, I am far from an expert on the Bible and wouldn't know where to begin to look myself. Thanks ahead of time.
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Old 03-19-2006, 11:18 PM   #165
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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I do have a question though, what about those people who believe God will love all and forgive all and you won't go to hell? It's odd is all.
I also find that somewhat strange. The Bible in some instances makes it sound like all you have to do is believe in God to be promised eternal life. For example (one verse I do know ):

John 3:16 - King James Version

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Does that mean all I have to do is believe? And another thing that's always confused me in this verse... does "Him" refer to God or Jesus? It's sort of an ambiguous pronoun reference. I would take it to mean God in this context because of the references of "He" and "His" which obviously refer to God.

So does this mean that all who believe in the God of the Old Testament will go to heaven, regardless of being Christian, Jew or Muslim (or any other strange denomination, or lack thereof, which believes in this same God)???

I guess this is good news for me, because I believe in God even though I am sort of up in the air on many of the details.
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Old 03-20-2006, 12:07 AM   #166
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

"Him" I would think would refer to the whole Godhead, the three entities.

There are also verses that seem to imply faith is all that is needed, then there are others that require works...
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Old 03-20-2006, 12:29 AM   #167
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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I also find that somewhat strange. The Bible in some instances makes it sound like all you have to do is believe in God to be promised eternal life. For example (one verse I do know ):

John 3:16 - King James Version

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Does that mean all I have to do is believe? And another thing that's always confused me in this verse... does "Him" refer to God or Jesus? It's sort of an ambiguous pronoun reference. I would take it to mean God in this context because of the references of "He" and "His" which obviously refer to God.

So does this mean that all who believe in the God of the Old Testament will go to heaven, regardless of being Christian, Jew or Muslim (or any other strange denomination, or lack thereof, which believes in this same God)???

I guess this is good news for me, because I believe in God even though I am sort of up in the air on many of the details.
I can believe there was a Jesus and he was trying to be a good guy, but to say he was God is really pushing it. If someone said they were God tomorrow, would you believe them?
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Old 03-20-2006, 01:01 AM   #168
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

^ not without something insanely magnificent to prove it.

But acc to the bible, we won't know who he is anyways.
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Old 03-20-2006, 01:42 AM   #169
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

But God doesn't flaut his powers though.
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Old 03-20-2006, 06:06 AM   #170
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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I have to question whether Catholics get into heaven or not. I think it's catholics at least? How they also pray to the Virgin Mary and such. If God wouldn't want anyone else to be prayed to, then what will happen to them?

Or the Jews for that matter? They don't believe in Hell, thusly they don't go to hell? It's like they are gaurnteed to have an entrance into heaven with God. They don't have to believe in God, just having Jewish blood in them gaurntees their entrance. At least that's what I heard from a few jews in my time.
As a prior Catholic I can tell you what the official church response is to your question about praying to Mary. If you read the prayer "Hail Mary" it is not praying to her it is praying thru her as Catholics do with all the Saints. I personally believe differently after studying history of the Catholic church. The fact is when Constantine was emperor he proclaimed all Rome as Christian he made Sunday the sabbath day and brought idols into the church to transition the Pagans into the Church who worshiped the Sun and prayed to idols.

The Jews on the other hand dont believe in the New Testament. Really can you believe in the Son of God if your church executed him on the cross??

The interesting thing is Muslim's, Jews and Christians all believe in the old testament but each have their own book after the old testament.
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Old 03-20-2006, 12:30 PM   #171
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

bbunt, I will defintaely get back to you on this...I've got to be at work in about 15 minutes so I don't have time right now.
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:52 PM   #172
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

lol @ noone read my long *** post on pg 15
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:59 PM   #173
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

nope.
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:06 PM   #174
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

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lol @ noone read my long *** post on pg 15
I don't have a page 15
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Old 03-20-2006, 08:20 PM   #175
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Re: Can or Will Happen?

yeah, this is page 5...
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