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Old 07-19-2006, 04:39 PM   #71
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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By your definition beliefs are all religious. I believe trickle down economic will work if handled properly, does that make me a member of the church or Reagan?
Your belief involves there being or not being a supernatural being. It associates itself in that manner. We are not talking about economics.
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:39 PM   #72
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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and yours is just strict enough for you to escape it's attachment to you. Are we going to continue to go back and forth like this? I am not changing my opinion and you obviously aren't yours.
I believe I am right and you believe that you are right. None of us can prove each other wrong, just try to corner one another in order for our responses to be weaker.
So in essence if you want to continue it will be a game of who can spin our beliefs the best.
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:40 PM   #73
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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Your belief involves there being or not being a supernatural being. It associates itself in that manner. We are not talking about economics.
But in order to have religion you have to have faith in a being existing. Refer to my above post about continuing this.
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:42 PM   #74
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Re: I hate George Bush:

Let's leave religion alone and talk about the thing that is holding back stem cell research:

Where does life begin and who decides this?
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:44 PM   #75
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Re: I hate George Bush:

We have no way of knowing because we don't even know what life is.

Sad really. We think we know so much yet we don't even know what it is that allosw us to wonder these very things.
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:45 PM   #76
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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Let's leave religion alone and talk about the thing that is holding back stem cell research:

Where does life begin and who decides this?
I agree that life begins at conception those embryos are alive, however I do not believe it is human life at that point.
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:55 PM   #77
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Re: I hate George Bush:

So what's the big deal with using Umbilical cells? Why do we HAVE to use embrionic cells?
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:58 PM   #78
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Re: I hate George Bush:

I kindof think of them as not alot different from animals until they start having activity in the brain. Please don't try to convince me that a cluster of 30 or 40 cells has feelings, thoughts, dreams, aspirations, and fears. Truth be told, they probably don't as soon as activity starts in the brain. Since we're talking about legislation though, the point has to be precise and measureable. Until then, it's just a lump of cells. Not alot different than any other lump of cells. About as alive as a tissue sample. Sure, the cells are living...but it's not really a person.
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Old 07-19-2006, 05:29 PM   #79
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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Sure, the cells are living...but it's not really a person.
Bingo.
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Old 07-19-2006, 05:41 PM   #80
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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By having senators who use religion to judge which laws should pass, religion is controlling the state.
Who votes for these Senators? If "religion is controlling the state", it's because a majority of the people want it to do so.

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Religion is oranized, not believing in religion is not religion. Sorry.
Religion does not require organization. I know many who consider themselves Christian but could not tell you the last time they went to church.

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Originally Posted by STEVE
I do not base my beliefs on anything written by man
Then you must not base your belief on science, because "science" is simply man's search for the understanding of truth in our world. This means that it will always be skewed simply because it is from the perspective of man. You are basing your belief on what other men have deemed to be true.

Have you yourself ever proven that E = MC^2?

These stem cell studies that you base your support on, are you the one who performed them? In the end, you are putting faith in someone else to give you the truth. These ideas were communicated by other men, and you believe them.

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Religion needs a spiritual leader in order to exist. Athiesm is an opinion that that spritual leader of a religion is false. Athiesm denys the spiritual leader.
Religion does not require a spiritual leader to exist. Have you ever heard of Buddhism? Or the concepts of enlightenment in general? The idea is that all humans have the ability to rise above our current existence through mediation, the channeling of our own spiritual energy, and eventually, enlightenment. There is no leader. Everyone is their own leader. Even in Buddhism, you cannot consider Buddha to be a spiritual leader (at least not in the same sense as "God"). He was simply a guide who had achieved enlightenment and sought to help others do the same through his teachings.

Sorry........ back to the topic. Some of us have to work all day and miss out on the good discussions.

I personally agree with Bush here (as I often do). I disagree with abortion and I disagree with this. These are living human beings. They may not even slightly resemble what we know as "human form," but they are the result of sexual reproduction and are living things.

If a fully-grown human were to die, without ever donating his body to science, would it be right to use his body anyway? After all, it's just going to be thrown out. To me, this is the very same issue. These are human beings whose bodies are being used for research without their consent ever being given.

Not to mention the simple fact that I don't agree with genetic research to begin with. It's sort of like nuclear weapons... there are some technologies that we are better off without. I don't think some people have fully realized the potential for destruction that lies in genetic modifications yet. We see it in the movies and stuff, but no one will really recognize it until it is actually happening.

BTW, Bush: Great President or Greatest President?
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Old 07-19-2006, 05:48 PM   #81
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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Man guess what my dollar bill says....."In God we trust". Yeah that sums it up.... our country started out with religion...Christianity.
know what else the dollar bill says?

"NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM"

"New SECULAR Order"

secular as in "anti-religion" ...get it?

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So I'm guessing you believe Darwins theory or the Big Bang........Thats what science had to offer for the meaning of our creations.

know what else? the big bang was originally a CHRISTIAN proposition
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Old 07-19-2006, 05:59 PM   #82
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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Let's leave religion alone and talk about the thing that is holding back stem cell research:

Where does life begin and who decides this?

IMHO, HUMAN life begins when you can discern a HEARTBEAT in the fetus
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:24 PM   #83
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Re: I hate George Bush:

I agree that the first cells of inception are not self aware and cannot feel.

HOWEVER, if allowed to develop as normal, these cells WILL become a living entitiy that has just as much right to live as you ar I. Who are we to deny it the only thing that should not be taken away? It has a right to "continue" to it's full development as it has the what I call "the right of furtherance". This means that no, it is not self aware, but given conditions inside the womb, that cluster of cells WILL become self aware, and in my opinion is entitled to the same rights.


BUT WHAT ABOUT USING UMBILICAL CELLS!
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:29 PM   #84
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Re: I hate George Bush:

I agree with bbunt302. Also if stem cell research was legalized women would get preagnant just to get the stem cells. I saw a program several years ago where this guy had some probem that stem cell reseach could cure so some lady volentered to be artificially inseminated with his kid just to have the featous aborted to obtain the stem cell for this guy. Like I said its been several years since I saw this and I don't remember all the details, but I believe it had to stem cells with his genes. They went to Denmark, or a country where stem cell research is practiced to have the operation done. Even thought the operation worked I don't believe its right for women to get preagnant just to have the baby aborted even to save another person.
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:30 PM   #85
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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I agree that the first cells of inception are not self aware and cannot feel.

HOWEVER, if allowed to develop as normal, these cells WILL become a living entitiy that has just as much right to live as you ar I. Who are we to deny it the only thing that should not be taken away? It has a right to "continue" to it's full development as it has the what I call "the right of furtherance". This means that no, it is not self aware, but given conditions inside the womb, that cluster of cells WILL become self aware, and in my opinion is entitled to the same rights.


BUT WHAT ABOUT USING UMBILICAL CELLS!
word, umbilical cells ftw
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:32 PM   #86
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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BTW, Bush: Great President or Greatest President?
:puke:
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:33 PM   #87
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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:puke:
word
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:33 PM   #88
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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:puke:
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:34 PM   #89
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Re: I hate George Bush:

I believe bush made a very good move here, and agree fully with the whole decision.
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:34 PM   #90
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Re: I hate George Bush:

Hey dark where have you been man, I missed my fellow heretic.
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:35 PM   #91
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Re: I hate George Bush:

Umbilical cells won't work. Umbilical cells are specialized cells. Stem cells are unique because have not yet grown into a specialized type of cell. They are capable of growing into other types of cells. There are different kinds of stem cells that are capable of growing into different types of cells. The ones that are most capable are those that are formed right after conception.
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:36 PM   #92
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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:puke:
I'll take that as "Greatest President." Thanks for your participation!
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:39 PM   #93
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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I'll take that as "Greatest Malecontent." Thanks for your participation!
fix/t

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Old 07-19-2006, 06:40 PM   #94
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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Hey dark where have you been man, I missed my fellow heretic.
lol, i've been busy with work and whatnot. haven't had much to post about
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:46 PM   #95
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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Originally Posted by bbunt302 View Post
Umbilical cells won't work. Umbilical cells are specialized cells. Stem cells are unique because have not yet grown into a specialized type of cell. They are capable of growing into other types of cells. There are different kinds of stem cells that are capable of growing into different types of cells. The ones that are most capable are those that are formed right after conception.
Hmmm. Then I guess we just luck out until we can make cells on our own.
Woops that wont ever happen because they are living things and we cannot/will not create a living thing.

Oh well. This might tell us something....maybe we are trying to play with toys that are beyond our age group. Like being a toddler trying to put together a Technic Lego set.
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:20 PM   #96
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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fix/t

Alright, I'll put you down for "Great President".

It's good to see all this positive enforcement of our President. Never before has the US had such a great leader! We are experiencing a great time to be an American! :patriot:
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:24 PM   #97
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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Hmmm. Then I guess we just luck out until we can make cells on our own.
Woops that wont ever happen because they are living things and we cannot/will not create a living thing.

Oh well. This might tell us something....maybe we are trying to play with toys that are beyond our age group. Like being a toddler trying to put together a Technic Lego set.
I'm right there with ya...
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:45 PM   #98
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Re: I hate George Bush:

We can't be solving issues with diseases....we have to make room for the rest of mexico to move in...gotta thin the heard out somehow don't we? We solve all the diseases, we won't have room for them....
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Old 07-19-2006, 11:07 PM   #99
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Re: I hate George Bush:

"1500 years ago, everyone knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everyone knew that the Earth was flat. 15 minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow."
-K

an earlier part of this thread reminded me of this for some reason

I also gotta say i agree with bbunt, u gotta draw the line somewhere and post reproduction (sex) is probly a safe place to draw that line.
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Old 07-19-2006, 11:21 PM   #100
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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"1500 years ago, everyone knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everyone knew that the Earth was flat. 15 minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow."
-K

an earlier part of this thread reminded me of this for some reason
w3rd, one of the greater quotes in a movie.

right now genetics are still in a "cut and paste" level, until we can learn to change the actual genetic code, we are mere beginners.

one day, we will be able to make cells from scratch, im pretty sure that day isnt too far off, and this debate will be obsolete.
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Old 07-20-2006, 12:14 AM   #101
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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one day, we will be able to make cells from scratch, im pretty sure that day isnt too far off, and this debate will be obsolete.
Then there is no reason for us to add more spending to the government budget on something that will be obsolete no so far away.
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Old 07-20-2006, 02:30 AM   #102
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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Alright, I'll put you down for "Great President".

It's good to see all this positive enforcement of our President. Never before has the US had such a great leader! We are experiencing a great time to be an American! :patriot:
You watch my boy Stephen Colbert way too much.
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:36 AM   #103
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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Then there is no reason for us to add more spending to the government budget on something that will be obsolete no so far away.
Why not? George doesn't have any problem spending tons of money on crap. Fiscally conservative, my ***. Damn I hate that bastard.
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:04 AM   #104
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Re: I hate George Bush:

I am sure there are still many that would say a heartbeat does not determine life or not...
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:38 PM   #105
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Re: I hate George Bush:

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Man guess what, separation of church and state was an idea of thosewho founded our country. How does that have anything to do with medicine?


you show me the words "seperation of church and state" in the constitution and I'll agree with you
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