Email I got today

[Herbstang]

:thumbs2: :patriot:

[Zim]

Hell yeah :patriot:

[MarkuzLS1]

I'm with ya' on the whole speaking english thing, but I've got to disagree when it gets to the whole Christian principles thing. Religion's got no buisness in government (and vice versa).

[SpectorV]

nice

[bluemustang]

good stuff in there, they damn well better learn our language if majority of my family can come here not speaking a lick of english and still force themselves to learn then anyone can do it, lazy ****s

[ThaWill]

Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1

I'm with ya' on the whole speaking english thing, but I've got to disagree when it gets to the whole Christian principles thing. Religion's got no buisness in government (and vice versa).

I think the whole point they were making was that the phrase "in god we trust" itself is more a representation of what the nation was factually founded on, and not a terrible, oppressive jesus banner out to taint your kids like people make it out to be. I don't read the back of a quarter and think the government is trying to turn me to christianity, and no normal person should.

Saying the nation was founded by Christian men is a lot different than saying the nation has to be run by christian men and everyone must take a christian view. oh and, THE DEVIL IS GONNA GET YOU MARK YOU BETTER CONVERT

[Herbstang]

Originally Posted by ThaWill

I think the whole point they were making was that the phrase "in god we trust" itself is more a representation of what the nation was factually founded on, and not a terrible, oppressive jesus banner out to taint your kids like people make it out to be. I don't read the back of a quarter and think the government is trying to turn me to christianity, and no normal person should.

Saying the nation was founded by Christian men is a lot different than saying the nation has to be run by christian men and everyone must take a christian view. oh and, THE DEVIL IS GONNA GET YOU MARK YOU BETTER CONVERT

I gotta agree with y'all I pert near said the same thing only differant

[Zuperzacker]

UH HUH! :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[bullitt482]

Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1

I'm with ya' on the whole speaking english thing, but I've got to disagree when it gets to the whole Christian principles thing. Religion's got no buisness in government (and vice versa).

This argument befuddles me. You do realize that no matter what you consider "morals" they are still based on Christian/Religious beliefs of past time right? If not explain to me why cheating on your wife is wrong other than you just think it is. Why is killing wrong? Even if you learned your morals from others, those basic "human" morals are from beliefs from past religious/christian doctrines.

[bullitt482]

Originally Posted by ThaWill

I think the whole point they were making was that the phrase "in god we trust" itself is more a representation of what the nation was factually founded on, and not a terrible, oppressive jesus banner out to taint your kids like people make it out to be. I don't read the back of a quarter and think the government is trying to turn me to christianity, and no normal person should.

Saying the nation was founded by Christian men is a lot different than saying the nation has to be run by christian men and everyone must take a christian view. oh and, THE DEVIL IS GONNA GET YOU MARK YOU BETTER CONVERT

Exactly, it's not Bush is going to come to your door and say, "Sir will you come to my gov't church" Well then again you never know, but still.

[MarkuzLS1]

I just don't believe that government decisions should have anything to do with religious doctrine. If you want to see how religious run governments work out, go look at the middle east. All the successful western countries have adopted a seperation of religion and government and it's a big part of why they're successful, modern nations.

[bullitt482]

Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1

I just don't believe that government decisions should have anything to do with religious doctrine. If you want to see how religious run governments work out, go look at the middle east. All the successful western countries have adopted a seperation of religion and government and it's a big part of why they're successful, modern nations.

Name one that is "successful" without religion. China? See buddhism and hinduism. Japan? same thing. India? also religiously run(yes I know these are "eastern"), U.S. has morals based on christianity, same in Mexico and Canada. I'm not saying that ALL decisions should be based on Christianity(well I do because I'm a christian, but ultimately everyone would disagree), but you have to have a basic set of morals based on religious doctrine.

If it's not based on religious doctrine, then what can you base your morals on? What you think is right? Well if that's the case then what you(figuratively) think is right or wrong is based on what your parent's taught you and guess where they got it from, their parents and gov't at the time, and guess where that came from, religious(Christian in the US's case) doctrine. Technically it's impossible to completely remove Christianity from governmert laws/doctrine without saying, "Well, it's ok to kill, rape, pillage, and so on, because we don't want to do the same as the Christians." See what I'm saying? I'm not saying all Americans should be christians as much as I'd want them to be, but it still technically has to be their choice, as is choosing to be religious, which is what our constitution is based on

[MarkuzLS1]

I think the decision not to kill, rape, steal, and cheat can be based on things other that religion. I'm not at all religious and I know those things are wrong. It doesn't take some invisible father figure living in the sky that's going to punish me in the afterlife to make me do the right thing. I can think for myself.

[bbunt302]

Originally Posted by bullitt482

Name one that is "successful" without religion. China? See buddhism and hinduism. Japan? same thing. India? also religiously run(yes I know these are "eastern"), U.S. has morals based on christianity, same in Mexico and Canada. I'm not saying that ALL decisions should be based on Christianity(well I do because I'm a christian, but ultimately everyone would disagree), but you have to have a basic set of morals based on religious doctrine.

If it's not based on religious doctrine, then what can you base your morals on? What you think is right? Well if that's the case then what you(figuratively) think is right or wrong is based on what your parent's taught you and guess where they got it from, their parents and gov't at the time, and guess where that came from, religious(Christian in the US's case) doctrine. Technically it's impossible to completely remove Christianity from governmert laws/doctrine without saying, "Well, it's ok to kill, rape, pillage, and so on, because we don't want to do the same as the Christians." See what I'm saying? I'm not saying all Americans should be christians as much as I'd want them to be, but it still technically has to be their choice, as is choosing to be religious, which is what our constitution is based on

Gonna lay down my burden,
Down by the river side.
Down by the river side.
Down by the river side.

Sorry. Just felt like singin'.

Basically what you're saying is that we are too stupid to figure out what is right and wrong for ourselves, so we need someone else to tell us how to live our lives. I think we've went beyond that point personally. We've got a lot of smart and good people around these days. I think we can run a country without scare tactics.

[Herbstang]

Originally Posted by bbunt302

Gonna lay down my burden,
Down by the river side.
Down by the river side.
Down by the river side.

Sorry. Just felt like singin'.

Basically what you're saying is that we are too stupid to figure out what is right and wrong for ourselves, so we need someone else to tell us how to live our lives. I think we've went beyond that point personally. We've got a lot of smart and good people around these days. I think we can run a country without scare tactics.

Give this man a slab of bacon


It's has nothing to do with christians believes to know what's right or wrong It's called commom sense

Religion makes only one direct and obvious appearance in the original Constitution that seems to point to a desire for some degree of religious freedom. That appearance is in Article 6, at the end of the third clause:
[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.


This statement is simple and straight-forward, and applies to all offices in the entire United States, both state and federal. The clause simply means that no public position can be required to be held by any one of any religious denomination. It would be unconstitutional for there to be a requirement that the President by Lutheran, or even for the mayor of a small town to be Christian. Likewise, it would be unconstitutional for a law to forbid a Jew or Muslim from holding any office in any governmental jurisdiction in the United States.
In the debates of the Constitutional Convention, religion did not get a lot of sound bites. It should be noted that without exception, the Framers were Christian or, at the very least, believed in God (Deism). There were no Jews or Muslims, no Hindus or atheists, and only two Roman Catholics. There were members of more than a half-dozen sects of the Protestant side of Christianity, though. Disagreements about style and method of worship between them were nearly as vast and incongruous as any seen today between, say, Jews and Muslims, such that the Framers wanted to ensure that no one sect could ever seize control of a government and start a theocracy

[ThaWill]

We should vote an islamic woman president just to mind-**** everyone

everyone thinks she's a terrorist except for the terrorists, who hate her because she is a woman with more power than they have...it will be glorious

[fast64]

AMERICA!!

[bullitt482]

Explain to me why is it wrong to cheat on your wife, kill someone, etc. then? What basis do you have for saying it's wrong? That's my point. What because someone says so? Because everyone else is doing it? C'mon. That "feeling" that you say you get to know it's wrong, yeah, that'd be God..

And I'm disappointed in the fact that of all the christians on this site, I'm the only one to be standing up for the fact that we only have christianity(catholic, lutheran, baptist, so on) to base our morals on.

[bbunt302]

Originally Posted by bullitt482

Explain to me why is it wrong to cheat on your wife, kill someone, etc. then? What basis do you have for saying it's wrong? That's my point. What because someone says so? Because everyone else is doing it? C'mon. That "feeling" that you say you get to know it's wrong, yeah, that'd be God..

And I'm disappointed in the fact that of all the christians on this site, I'm the only one to be standing up for the fact that we only have christianity(catholic, lutheran, baptist, so on) to base our morals on.

Because I have respect for my fellow human beings. That's why.

[MarkuzLS1]

WTF? It's God? It's not knowing that life is better when people act right? If you want to blame it on God, go ahead. I know that for me, though, it's trying to do my part to make life a bit more bearable. For everybody. Or at least not make it any less bearable. For anybody.

:dunno:

[DarkShadow]

lol, scanned the thread earlier and just read the first post, wasn't expecting one of our famous religious debates lol!

1). This is my BIGGEST complaint with the separation of church and staters: NO where in any legal government document be it the Articles of Confed., Constitution, Declaration, Bill of Rights, etc does it say "The church and the state (government) shall be held totally separate, and furthermore, no government decision shall be based on religious morals".

The entire concept of separation derived from a letter written either to or from Thomas Jefferson (can't remember which).

2). Sorry if "In God We Trust" is too "overbearing" on your rights. Get over it. There are things that we put up with every day that are entirely more overbearing to not just christians but non christians alike. We daily face threats to our rights as Americans but are told well we should be more tolerant.

3). As for government trying to ram religion into every one: Who? Bush is probably the most "religious" president we ahve had since his dad or Reagan, but you dont hear him saying "Got to church or your going to hell". Yes, he does say a thing or two about God and faith and beliefs and blah blah, but these are mor maxims if anything. None are condemning or forcing you to do anything.

If we have an atheist president, I wont like it one bit, but he can say what he wants to just like Bush or any other government official can. We have plenty already I'm sure, but none of them will say so because they dont want to lose those voters.

[FattyMcFaterson]

Thing we all have to remember is this. The majority of the Christians out there aren't the types who try to FORCE other to do what is believed to be morally correct by that Christian. They make suggestions or might possibly try to convert someone, but they do not force.

The people who seem to be the most intolerant are the ones who are strongly apposed to Christianity and other forms of single deity religions. They believe everyone should be tolerant to their ideas but they shouldn't be "wasted of their time" to listen to what a Christian has to say.

Granted, it is different if someone is trying to force you to do something. That is not lawful, nor is it a good way to try to bring more to the light. Like it or not, the laws were written by people who at least believed in God, but they are in place to try to make this country a better place to live and if you break those laws, you are a criminal. That matters not if you are a Christian, agnostic, or atheist.

I thank God every day that I live in this country. Do you? Or would you rather live where you are forced to practice the religion of the dictator?

[MarkuzLS1]

The government's main function is to protect us, its citizens, from other governments. It's secondary function is to protect us, its citizens, from other citizens. Military and Police, basically. Unfortunately, you've got to have a few things that go along with those. Tax collection, to fund the police and military, for instance. Of all the unfortunate things, the most unfortunate is lawyers to draft the exact rules by which protecting citizens from other citizens is to be undertaken. Don't hurt me, don't steal from me, don't cheat me...basically. Judges and jails to deal with the people that hurt, steal, and cheat... and I think that's pretty much it. We've decided to give our government a few more responsibilities; infrastructure, education, etc. But the primary tasks are the same.

So how does that have anything to do with religion, again?

[DarkShadow]

Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1

The government's main function is to protect us, its citizens, from other governments. It's secondary function is to protect us, its citizens, from other citizens. Military and Police, basically. Unfortunately, you've got to have a few things that go along with those. Tax collection, to fund the police and military, for instance. Of all the unfortunate things, the most unfortunate is lawyers to draft the exact rules by which protecting citizens from other citizens is to be undertaken. Don't hurt me, don't steal from me, don't cheat me...basically. Judges and jails to deal with the people that hurt, steal, and cheat... and I think that's pretty much it. We've decided to give our government a few more responsibilities; infrastructure, education, etc. But the primary tasks are the same.

So how does that have anything to do with religion, again?

Because beliefs like killing is bad, stealing is bad, breaking is bad, etc, came from the idea that there is a punishment for such behavior. This belief has existed for longer than any system of government was first invented.

Animals kill each other to simply survive rather than trying to find an alternative. You might lol at this, but it is basically true. Now, atheists/agnostics/evolutionists are always trying to say we are just another animal. So why should killing be wrong for any other reason than that the person's family/friends will miss them? So then why shouldn't they just be able to go to your house and jack you up in the middle of the night with no punishment either?

Morals derived from somewhere. If you believe we are just another animal and that God doesn't exist, it seems to me that you have a harder road to hoe explaining why these things became "wrong".

[MarkuzLS1]

Originally Posted by DarkShadow

Morals derived from somewhere. If you believe we are just another animal and that God doesn't exist, it seems to me that you have a harder road to hoe explaining why these things became "wrong".

Morals come from what makes people better than animals. The ability to think. More specifically, the ability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. To consider how your actions might affect other people. Didn't people think about this **** before the bible? You won't ever be able to convince me that people haven't thought about morality for alot longer than Christianity (or religion at all) has been around.

[n8r]

Originally Posted by bullitt482

Explain to me why is it wrong to cheat on your wife, kill someone, etc. then? What basis do you have for saying it's wrong? That's my point. What because someone says so? Because everyone else is doing it? C'mon. That "feeling" that you say you get to know it's wrong, yeah, that'd be God..

And I'm disappointed in the fact that of all the christians on this site, I'm the only one to be standing up for the fact that we only have christianity(catholic, lutheran, baptist, so on) to base our morals on.

I know what I believe, I know what most everyone else on here believes, and they know what I believe. What I say isn't going to sway them either way, nor is what they say going to change my mind.

[bbunt302]

I what I believe, and you know what you believe, and somebody knows what they believe, but I believe there's a Jesus in all of us.

Just keep that in mind at all times, thank you.

[Herbstang]

Originally Posted by bbunt302

I what I believe, and you know what you believe, and somebody knows what they believe, but I believe there's a Jesus in all of us.

Just keep that in mind at all times, thank you.

P.S.- Jesus H christ !!!!!!!!!!! this is the last time I post a joke and how the **** did this simple joke turn into a religious debate bullitt482 I respect your beliefs But the feeling I get when thinking about ****ing up isn't I'll go to hell It's fear of jail time for such behavior !! Again comman sense keeps me in line .Not the fear of something /someone I have never seen

[MarkuzLS1]

Originally Posted by Herbstang

But the feeling I get when thinking about ****ing up isn't I'll go to hell It's fear of jail time for such behavior !! Again comman sense keeps me in line .Not the fear of something /someone I have never seen

Your a good man, Mr. Herb.

[Herbstang]

Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1

Your a good man, Mr. Herb.

I try !! And with you Sir and ThaWill as my role model how could I go wrong

[MarkuzLS1]

Originally Posted by Herbstang

I try !! And with you Sir and ThaWill as my role model how could I go wrong

Good Lord, don't make me answer that question...

[Herbstang]

Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1

Good Lord, don't make me answer that question...

No need for that I was there

[bullitt482]

Originally Posted by Herbstang

P.S.- Jesus H christ !!!!!!!!!!! this is the last time I post a joke and how the **** did this simple joke turn into a religious debate bullitt482 I respect your beliefs But the feeling I get when thinking about ****ing up isn't I'll go to hell It's fear of jail time for such behavior !! Again comman sense keeps me in line .Not the fear of something /someone I have never seen

I wasn't meaning going to hell, I mean just the feeling that it's wrong.

I'm questioning common sense, it's not exactly in your DNA, it's taught, just like 70-80 percent.

Anyway, you're right, I digressed the hell out of this thread(no pun intended ). Carry on, and I'll do better to hold back in the future

[bullitt482]

Originally Posted by FattyMcFaterson

The people who seem to be the most intolerant are the ones who are strongly apposed to Christianity and other forms of single deity religions. They believe everyone should be tolerant to their ideas but they shouldn't be "wasted of their time" to listen to what a Christian has to say.

Granted, it is different if someone is trying to force you to do something. That is not lawful, nor is it a good way to try to bring more to the light. Like it or not, the laws were written by people who at least believed in God, but they are in place to try to make this country a better place to live and if you break those laws, you are a criminal. That matters not if you are a Christian, agnostic, or atheist.

I thank God every day that I live in this country. Do you? Or would you rather live where you are forced to practice the religion of the dictator?

Now, that is more of what I was trying to say.... I suck at wording..

Originally Posted by FattyMcFaterson

They believe everyone should be tolerant to their ideas but they shouldn't be "wasted of their time" to listen to what a Christian has to say.

You should see the intolerance/jokes I and several others faced on another website, actually I'll show you the link.

Forum Home

That's where I started. The whole thread is interesting and a great debate. As much as I hate to say it, I learned a lot from having to do some research while "debating".

[DarkShadow]

We have had some pretty good ones here too. :approve: