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Old 05-24-2007, 04:38 PM   #36
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

It's not the amount of carbon, it's the amount of carbon-14. A certain percentage of all the atoms of carbon are the heavier isotope. While you're alive, the biological process keep the carbon in your body even with the carbon in the outside world. Once you die, however, whatever carbon is in you is, well, in you. Then as the C-14 decays you have less and less of it in your corpse. Some years later you can see how much C-14 is there and make an educated guess as to how long you've been dead.

In short, it doesn't matter how much carbon was/is in the air, it's the percentage of said carbon that's C-14.
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Old 05-24-2007, 04:44 PM   #37
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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actually there are different species that are apparent. for example, prarie dogs and squirrels are the first ones that come to mind. they are very closely related.
So your basically going to say that all rodents are the same animal but evolved into different species....didn't I cover this with dogs/cats...

A wolf could be considered totally different from a Daschound (sp?) or a Siberian tiger from a common tabby. They are still cannines and felines.
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Old 05-24-2007, 04:47 PM   #38
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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It's not the amount of carbon, it's the amount of carbon-14. A certain percentage of all the atoms of carbon are the heavier isotope. While you're alive, the biological process keep the carbon in your body even with the carbon in the outside world. Once you die, however, whatever carbon is in you is, well, in you. Then as the C-14 decays you have less and less of it in your corpse. Some years later you can see how much C-14 is there and make an educated guess as to how long you've been dead.

In short, it doesn't matter how much carbon was/is in the air, it's the percentage of said carbon that's C-14.
So...someone has measured a live dinosaur's C-14 to know how much they have in life since they didn't know how much was in the atmosphere at that time...
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Old 05-24-2007, 04:51 PM   #39
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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So...someone has measured a live dinosaur's C-14 to know how much they have in life since they didn't know how much was in the atmosphere at that time...
THE ****ING PERCENTAGE OF CARBON THAT IS C-14 IS THE SAME FOR THE WHOLE UNIVERSE! Unless the laws of physics has changed in the last few million years...or 10,000, or whatever.

If you want to deny science and live in your religious dream world, be my guest.
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Old 05-24-2007, 05:05 PM   #40
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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THE ****ING PERCENTAGE OF CARBON THAT IS C-14 IS THE SAME FOR THE WHOLE UNIVERSE! Unless the laws of physics has changed in the last few million years...or 10,000, or whatever.

If you want to deny science and live in your religious dream world, be my guest.
thanks for restating what I said... I don't think they get it. I think how you said was more clear than how I said, with the ratios and ****. Glad someone else is on board. (did you happen to take some physics? or chemistry?)
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Old 05-24-2007, 05:13 PM   #41
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

Just when you thought Scientologists had become the craziest people on Earth, Christians come out swinging.
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Old 05-24-2007, 05:26 PM   #42
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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thanks for restating what I said... I don't think they get it. I think how you said was more clear than how I said, with the ratios and ****. Glad someone else is on board. (did you happen to take some physics? or chemistry?)
When I was in high school, I had a good bit of chemistry and a little bit of physics. In college I pussed out and took Biology and Astronomy. I started to take Chemistry over a summer semester where you take Chem 1 over six weeks and then Chem 2 over six weeks. I was taking Cal 2 at the same time, over the whole semester. It didn't take long to realize that it was going to be too much. Dropped Chem. The next semester I decided that it would probably be easier to take Biology (we had the choice of a two semester sequence in Bio, Chem, or Physics). We had to do two more semesters of science and I did Astronomy 1 and 2 after that.
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Old 05-24-2007, 06:13 PM   #43
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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Not to mention severe earth quakes jumbling the land...spewing forth lava and what not...

So yeah....if goes back to...how do we know these definitive numbers of what was then....it also goes back to the fact that saying billion sounds cooler than saying thousands...

We on the exact sentence, of the same paragraph, on the same page. This is the exact argument I had with someone on the other site. How can you say something is X old when no one or no record has been around that long to prove that the half life doesn't change over X thousand years? Which is exactly said that's why Carbon14/Uranium dating is a theory and can never be proved.
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Old 05-24-2007, 06:19 PM   #44
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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Just when you thought Scientologists had become the craziest people on Earth, Christians come out swinging.
It's funny how the christians of this site never personally attack atheists or science and so on, but yet we're told we're in a dream, we're crazy, and so on. If there is anything to say about "us" christians, it's the fact that we can say we respect your beliefs without name calling or other personal attacks.
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Old 05-24-2007, 06:20 PM   #45
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

You are attacking Science, not Atheists. We are not defending Atheists we are defending Science. You are defending Religion. Stop trying to put this as an Atheist vs. Relgious deal. If Christians want to attack Science then they should be ready to have someone start attacking their belief system as well. People who aren't standing up for Religion are standing up for Science. Not Atheists. I said that again just so we make that clear. So you are attacking the people's beliefs in this thread and no it is not just some conspiracy to put down Christians. They are defending their beliefs just like you are yours.
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Old 05-24-2007, 06:25 PM   #46
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

post edited.....



I'm not "attacking," I'm questioning. There is a difference in saying, "why don't you see things this way, or look at it this way:, than saying, "Wow your in a pipedream, you're a moron for thinking that." I've had several discussions with people with varying beliefs in the existence of God, how old the earth is, and so on and learned it's ok to agree to disagree, but namecalling is out of line.

I'd much rather talk about it and learn what other people think and why than argue.


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You are attacking Science, not Atheists. We are not defending Atheists we are defending Science. You are defending Religion. Stop trying to put this as an Atheist vs. Relgious deal. If Christians want to attack Science then they should be ready to have someone start attacking their belief system as well. People who aren't standing up for Religion are standing up for Science. Not Atheists. I said that again just so we make that clear. So you are attacking the people's beliefs in this thread and no it is not just some conspiracy to put down Christians. They are defending their beliefs just like you are yours.
I wasn't trying to make it a atheist vs. religious. Sorry for the misconstruing(sp?). I just assume someone is atheist when they openly attack christian(not religious, religious is more general) beliefs.
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Old 05-24-2007, 06:43 PM   #47
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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We on the exact sentence, of the same paragraph, on the same page. This is the exact argument I had with someone on the other site. How can you say something is X old when no one or no record has been around that long to prove that the half life doesn't change over X thousand years? Which is exactly said that's why Carbon/Uranium dating is a theory and can never be proved.
You shamelessly bash science and try to come up with wild scenarios in the hope of somehow casting doubt on it, yet you believe in every word out of a book that was written by middle eastern tribesmen well over 2000 years ago.

A scientific theory is based on countless repeatable experiments. You can grab a book, read how to conduct the experiment, and see for yourself that it works. Then somebody else can build on your theory. You can thank the scientific method for all this great stuff you see around you. There's nothing about science that excludes the possibility of a god. Please though, don't go around with your bible proclaiming it as fact and then deny science. It just doesn't make any sense.
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Old 05-24-2007, 06:51 PM   #48
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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post edited.....



I'm not "attacking," I'm questioning. There is a difference in saying, "why don't you see things this way, or look at it this way:, than saying, "Wow your in a pipedream, you're a moron for thinking that." I've had several discussions with people with varying beliefs in the existence of God, how old the earth is, and so on and learned it's ok to agree to disagree, but namecalling is out of line.

I'd much rather talk about it and learn what other people think and why than argue.




I wasn't trying to make it a atheist vs. religious. Sorry for the misconstruing(sp?). I just assume someone is atheist when they openly attack christian(not religious, religious is more general) beliefs.
Attacking Religions and attacking a god are different things. Just because someone attacks Christians beliefs and ways of understanding the universe does not mean they do not belief that there is a god somewhere out there.

I just wanted to make it clear that just because someone disagrees with a Religion does not mean they automatically disregard a higher power.
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Old 05-24-2007, 06:51 PM   #49
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

I don't need to attack science. My beliefs are attacked unprovoked most of the time. Yes, this time I did attack science. However, the original post as well as a few afterwards (esp. thomas) was a direct attack against my religion, before I even said anything. So don't try to make it out like we started this whole damn mess in this thread.
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Old 05-24-2007, 07:13 PM   #50
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

there is no god

if there was, he wouldn't have let me read this ****ty thread


there we have it, proof
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Old 05-24-2007, 07:51 PM   #51
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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there is no god

if there was, he wouldn't have let me read this ****ty thread


there we have it, proof
Naw, that's just proof God doesn't like you. J/K

Now I don't any problem with people disagreeing with many of the things proposed by Christians. I don't agree with them either while I am Christian. It's the name calling and insults that annoy me.

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there are some definite dum dums in this world. most of them religious

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Just when you thought Scientologists had become the craziest people on Earth, Christians come out swinging.
Statements like these do little but belittle the opponent in a childish fasion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a civilized debate. We can disagree without hate and name calling.



Ok, while I said I wouldn't dive into this, I guess I'll say a little bit...

Regarding the prospect that Noah's ark also held dinosaurs, I don't hold to that. I actually do believe in the Old Earth theory, and there is actually Biblical connotation to support it. While I see that Bible as Galileo saw it, as a book to teach us "how go to Heavan, and not how the Heavans go," here is something interesting...

I cannot take credit for the following. This was the work of Mark Driscoll, Pastor at Mars Hill Church (Mars Hill Church : Welcome)
Quote:
The earth may be, or likely is old, as Genesis 1:1 explains an indeterminate period of time during which God made creation out of nothing. This is supported by the Hebrew word for beginning which is "resh it"(actually one word but space added to avoid filter) that can mean anything from days to billions of years as a general word(e.g. Genesis 10:10; Job 8:7; Jeremiah 28;1). Genesis 1:2 begins the account of the preparation of the land for human history on the earth in six literal days. The strength of this argument is that in Genesis 1:1 Moses used the Hebrew word "bara" for creation which means that God made creation from nothing. Moses then uses the word "asah" for the six days of Creation which means to prepare and form the earth that He had already made, but was not yet habitable for mankind. This is because of the language used of the state of Creation in 1:2 does not mean that there was unformed matter that God made creation out of, but rather that the earth was not yet in a state that could accomodate human life. ...

This may mean that God created the earth over an indefinaite period of time that could in fact have been billions of years which would explain the seemingly old age of the earth."
There you go. Bible based possibility that Dinosaurs roamed the earth prior to humans, as well as the earth being billions of years old.
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Old 05-24-2007, 07:55 PM   #52
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

lol... I typically don't attack the idea of a God. I typically "attack" the idea of religion. Mainly because those of "high religious faith" are usually pretty fast to trash science.
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Old 05-24-2007, 07:58 PM   #53
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

i just wanted to add this

def one subject this guy right here is staying out of
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Old 05-24-2007, 07:59 PM   #54
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

I think there are many ways to hold both God and science. Hell, you could even argue good points that God made everything like it is that many years ago. The simple thing is, there are too many possibilities. If you believe God can do everything, and would anticipate our creativity, so he made dinosaur bones like they were to test our faith, then believe that. Personally, I believe stuff was made, and allowed to happen. I believe we are chance creatures. In the long run, if we go extinct... that's our fault. There won't be a Godly figure to come save us, as there never really has been.
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Old 05-24-2007, 08:20 PM   #55
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

There are other ways to measure the passage of time, such as the amount of time light takes to travel from a star to the earth... some of which are defiantly more than 10,000 light years away.
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Old 05-24-2007, 08:53 PM   #56
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

The whole thread started to poke fun at the idea that Noah had two of every dinosaur on his arc. It's a funny idea. He'd have to have a huge arc. It wasn't an attack on religion, it wasn't even really an attack on the bible. It might have been an attack on the guy that made the statements, but I seriously doubt he's a member of the site. Thomas made the first stab and the whole thing spiraled out of control.

We now know two things, though. Some of y'all take the bible very literally, even the old testament. Some of y'all don't believe in the scientific method. Then there are those of us who don't and do, respectively. I think we all know which camps (or variations, thereof) we all belong to.
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:08 PM   #57
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

As much as I agree with you Mark, I cannot take advice from someone who regularly wears lamp shades.
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:12 PM   #58
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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As much as I agree with you Mark, I cannot take advice from someone who regularly wears lamp shades.
I can't say that I regularly wear them. Though, I guess it does happen on occasion. I understand your reluctance.
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:18 PM   #59
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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As much as I agree with you Mark, I cannot take advice from someone who regularly wears lamp shades.
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:40 PM   #60
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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As much as I agree with you Mark, I cannot take advice from someone who regularly wears lamp shades.
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Old 05-24-2007, 11:23 PM   #61
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

I for one get very pissed when people make mindless comments about ANYTHING. It doesn't particularly bother me that people attack religion. I hold the belief that DangerDude did, that religion has been corrupted.

I have yet to make an attack on science like you might think I have. I believe science is the way man can understand the laws that God put into place. I do believe that science can be and is used however just like governments are used, people are used, etc. Science doesn't have all the answers and OH SNAP we don't either.

"WE" didn't come out swinging on this debate, and as far back as I can remember, we never have. The way we figure it: it's pretty much your loss.

But I will say: I am pretty disappointed in bbunt's comments of late about anything related to this topic. You used to be able to discuss this with reason whether you agreed/half agreed/totally disagreed. We can expect off the wall comments from Thomas, but yeah, pretty disappointed. No personal attack on you, just wondering what happened.
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Old 05-24-2007, 11:34 PM   #62
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

Lie to get what I came for.
Lie to get just what I need.
Lie to get what I crave.
Lie and smile to get what's mine.

Give this to me.
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Old 05-24-2007, 11:58 PM   #63
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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THE ****ING PERCENTAGE OF CARBON THAT IS C-14 IS THE SAME FOR THE WHOLE UNIVERSE! Unless the laws of physics has changed in the last few million years...or 10,000, or whatever.

If you want to deny science and live in your religious dream world, be my guest.
Sorry, but this would be incorrect. There are things that can affect the ratio of carbon/carbon -14. One being volcanism which we already discussed. Another being things like the industrial revolution or really anything that can increase CO2 levels can throw off the carbon ratio. Another being how much cosmic rays are deflected by the earth's magnetic field (which has been shown to be weakening), since cosmic rays are supposed to be what makes this isotope of carbon right? This could even affect the rate of decay of C-14.
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Old 05-25-2007, 02:21 AM   #64
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

I didn't know there was so many damn Republician Atheist.
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Old 05-25-2007, 05:26 AM   #65
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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Sorry, but this would be incorrect. There are things that can affect the ratio of carbon/carbon -14. One being volcanism which we already discussed. Another being things like the industrial revolution or really anything that can increase CO2 levels can throw off the carbon ratio. Another being how much cosmic rays are deflected by the earth's magnetic field (which has been shown to be weakening), since cosmic rays are supposed to be what makes this isotope of carbon right? This could even affect the rate of decay of C-14.
I need some kind of proof about the volcano activity increasing the carbon-14 percentage. I've never heard that. Also, increasing CO2 levels wouldn't change the carbon-14/carbon ratio because it's all carbon to carbon. It's not like a Carbon/Nitrogen ratio.

"Carbon-14 is created from nitrogen-14 in the upper atmosphere of the earth. Radiation from the sun collides with atoms in the atmosphere. These collisions create secondary cosmic rays in the form of energentic neutrons. When these neutrons collide with nitrogen-14 in the atmosphere carbon-14 can be created. Nitrogen normally occurs in a seven proton, seven nuetron, nitrogen-14 state. When it collides with an energetic neutron it becomes carbon-14, with six protons and eight neutrons and gives off a hydrogen atom with one proton and zero neutrons." - Carbon Dating Background

Alright, so, because carbon-14 is created in the upper atmosphere, the magnetosphere would affect it.

worth noting:
"How do we know Carbon-14 dating is accurate?

Scientists check the accuracy of carbon dating by comparing carbon dating data to data from other dating methods. Other methods scientists use include counting rock layers and tree rings.

When scientists first began to compare carbon dating data to data from tree rings, they found carbon dating provided "too-young" estimates of artifact age. Scientists now realize that production of carbon-14 has not been constant over the last 10,000 years, but has changed as the radiation from the sun has changed. Carbon dates reported in the 1950s and 1960s should be questioned, because those studies were conducted before carbon dating was calibrated by comparision with other dating methods.

Nuclear tests, nuclear reactors and the use of nuclear weapons have also changed the composition of radioisotopes in the air over the last few decades. This human nuclear activity will make precise dating of fossils from our lifetime very difficult due to contamination of the normal radioisotope composition of the earth with addition artificially produced radioactive atoms."... same site

and in case you were curious how they dated the older stuff:
* Potassium-40 found in your body at all times; half-life = 1.3 billion years
* Uranium-235; half-life = 704 million years
* Uranium-238; half-life = 4.5 billion years
* Thorium-232; half-life = 14 billion years
* Rubidium-87; half-life = 49 billion years


so we get back to the point... sure, it could be off, but it isn't off by 400% (40,000 years vs. 10,000 years). Also, the other types of half life datings certainly aren't off by millions of percent.
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Old 05-25-2007, 05:49 AM   #66
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

well... i definitely won the most contraversial thread of the week award...

...but at what cost lol
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Old 05-25-2007, 05:53 AM   #67
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

I have a feeling this is far from over.
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Old 05-25-2007, 08:32 AM   #68
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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Originally Posted by MarkuzLS1 View Post
THE ****ING PERCENTAGE OF CARBON THAT IS C-14 IS THE SAME FOR THE WHOLE UNIVERSE! Unless the laws of physics has changed in the last few million years...or 10,000, or whatever.

If you want to deny science and live in your religious dream world, be my guest.
So....we can know with 100% certainty that millions of years ago, all creatures had a definable amount of c-14 in their bodies? This is all based on science that is only a 100-200 years old?

The point is, how can anyone be confident that the amount of c-14 in living tissue/non-living strata/etc is at the same levels it is today? You can't. You can't say that dinosaurs had X amount of C-14 in their bodies when they died. No one can define that without a delorian and some measuring equipment.
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Old 05-25-2007, 08:36 AM   #69
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

Okay, fine. The world is only 10,000 years old, the way the universe works changes regularly, and there was a big boat with two of every dinosaur on it.
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Old 05-25-2007, 08:41 AM   #70
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Re: uh... (weird news article about dinosaurs and noah)

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Okay, fine. The world is only 10,000 years old, the way the universe works changes regularly, and there was a big boat with two of every dinosaur on it.
That isn't my point...my point is...Just because a scientist says "This is definitive" doesn't mean it really is.

The world could be millions of years old. Hell, maybe Tolkien wasn't too far off with his writings and maybe we are in our 3rd or 4th time around so the world could be millions of years old.

But, knowing how long it takes something to decay can't tell you an age with accuracy unless you know how much should be there to start and what all the possible agents could have affected its decay...the atmosphere at all levels has changed several times over....
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