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Old 04-07-2011, 08:50 PM   #36
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Re: Government Shutdown

Problem is at the end of the day there was no Congressional authorization to go to war in either case. Congress is not granted the power to defer decisions of war to the Executive Branch. It is the responsibility of Congress to declare war, and such declarations cannot be made by any other branch. Whether you agree or disagree with the morals of why we are there or why we shouldn't be there, at the end of the day both wars are unconstitutional. And nothing else matters.

As soon as we begin ignoring our Constitution, our nation is meaningless. It is the backbone upon which everything else is built. As soon as it falters, so does the nation.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:52 PM   #37
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Re: Government Shutdown

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TL;DR:

Some discomfort, as minor or as major as it may have been or will continue to be, for one of the most successful countries in the world wasn't worth the lives of a few "ragheads", and their kids, and their kids kids who I'll never know the names of.
Maybe you should give a **** about what goes on in America more than you give a **** about what goes on in Iraq and Afghanistan. 13 trillion dollars in debt and 9.2% unemployment. People are going hungry in this country too. There are cities in this country where you can't walk down the street without fearing for your safety. Save your bleeding heart BS for someone else.

Also, I am willing to bet our forces have killed more citizens in Iraq than Saddam could have dreamed up. We have been dropping bombs for 8 years over there and for most of that time the country was in a state of turmoil, with constant suicide bombings.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:56 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent

Maybe you should give a **** about what goes on in America more than you give a **** about what goes on in Iraq and Afghanistan. 13 trillion dollars in debt and 9.2% unemployment. People are going hungry in this country too. There are cities in this country where you can't walk down the street without fearing for your safety. Save your bleeding heart BS for someone else.

Also, I am willing to bet our forces have killed more citizens in Iraq than Saddam could have dreamed up. We have been dropping bombs for 8 years over there and for most of that time the country was in a state of turmoil, with constant suicide bombings.
+100000000000 well said, Brent. In all of this.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:59 PM   #39
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Re: Government Shutdown

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Problem is at the end of the day there was no Congressional authorization to go to war in either case. Congress is not granted the power to defer decisions of war to the Executive Branch. It is the responsibility of Congress to declare war, and such declarations cannot be made by any other branch. Whether you agree or disagree with the morals of why we are there or why we shouldn't be there, at the end of the day both wars are unconstitutional. And nothing else matters.

As soon as we begin ignoring our Constitution, our nation is meaningless. It is the backbone upon which everything else is built. As soon as it falters, so does the nation.
Partially correct, so in a sense, not correct at all.

Iraq

Afghanistan

Libya alone was not authorized.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:59 PM   #40
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Re: Government Shutdown

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Also, I am willing to bet our forces have killed more citizens in Iraq than Saddam could have dreamed up. We have been dropping bombs for 8 years over there and for most of that time the country was in a state of turmoil, with constant suicide bombings.
We have killed civilians. We also have CED (collateral damage estimate) concerns every time I go kinetic on a target. Meaning is this target important enough to save 10 soldiers and kill 1 civilian. Every scenario is different. Yesterday which its on the news already so I don't mind saying it we killed 3 "civilians" which later turned out to be suicide bombers. I know blowing up things isn't the most discrete way of doing things. Thats why when we drop a bomb whether its a time sensitive target or a deliberate target dropping the bomb is the last resort if detaining isn't an option. Yes in the beginning we did just go around blowing the hell out of anything and everything. No argument there. But thats what I signed up for.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:03 PM   #41
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Re: Government Shutdown

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Maybe you should give a **** about what goes on in America more than you give a **** about what goes on in Iraq and Afghanistan. 13 trillion dollars in debt and 9.2% unemployment. People are going hungry in this country too. There are cities in this country where you can't walk down the street without fearing for your safety. Save your bleeding heart BS for someone else.

Also, I am willing to bet our forces have killed more citizens in Iraq than Saddam could have dreamed up. We have been dropping bombs for 8 years over there and for most of that time the country was in a state of turmoil, with constant suicide bombings.
And all our problems here won't be resolved because someone has something political to gain by it. I joined the military, not politics. We made a difference there that obviously can't be made in the same fashion here. To compare the two is ignorance.

Your last paragraph wreaks of arrogantly, ignorant propaganda, the type of bull**** that al Jazeera broadcasts. Educate yourself on how our military does business in the 21st century before you hemorrhage any more uninformed bile.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:05 PM   #42
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Re: Government Shutdown

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Yes in the beginning we did just go around blowing the hell out of anything and everything. No argument there. But thats what I signed up for.
It was no different in the beginning either. We had operatives in your career field and others already in place scouting/clearing locals and calling in hits at opportune times. "Shock and Awe" it may have been, but it was well controlled.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:09 PM   #43
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Re: Government Shutdown

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And all our problems here won't be resolved because someone has something political to gain by it. I joined the military, not politics. We made a difference there that obviously can't be made in the same fashion here. To compare the two is ignorance.
I didn't say they would be solved, but when funding for teachers is being cut, unemployment is on a rise and our debt sits at 13 trillion dollars, we do not need to have a 1 trillion dollar annual defense fund.

What is ignorant as **** is blowing up Iraq for 8 years when there was not a single threat to our National security. It is people like you that scare the **** out of me with your belief in how our military should be used around the world.

Quote:
Your last paragraph wreaks of arrogantly, ignorant propaganda, the type of bull**** that al Jazeera broadcasts. Educate yourself on how our military does business in the 21st century before you leak out any more uninformed bile.
Don't question my morals by trying to put words into my mouth. Just because I don't believe that the job description of the United States military is to make regime change wherever some politician sees fit, doesn't mean I am some person with no compassion for people born in **** holes like Iraq.

Don't sit there and tell me that I don't care about the lives of these people while the United States military accepts and it has been documented that civilian lives have been lost on a large scale, during the 8 year war.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:09 PM   #44
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Re: Government Shutdown

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It was no different in the beginning either. We had operatives in your career field and others already in place scouting/clearing locals and calling in hits at opportune times. "Shock and Awe" it may have been, but it was well controlled.
Yeah I know. You'll prob meet a few of them at tech school. Which I hear the course is a joke now and they just hand out berets. And I really hope you didn't take that as I don't respect you because of your job. I realize everyone has a part in making things work whether its turning a wrench or jumping out of a plane. Was just stating its a completely different feeling when you have other things to worry about out here. Also whether I agree with the war or not isn't a concern. My job is to protect the guys on the ground with me or near me and once we're in contact idc if its a 6yr old with an RPG, he shoots and runs into a building that building is coming down with him in it.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:11 PM   #45
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I won't discuss what I do...but I can say with absolute certainty that if we had not gone to Iraq or Afghanistan then our own country would be much worse off.

Enjoy the right to say what you want, protest even...maybe even pass judgement...that's why there are service members that do what they do...so you can do what you do...
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:13 PM   #46
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Re: Government Shutdown

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I won't discuss what I do...but I can say with absolute certainty that if we had not gone to Iraq or Afghanistan then our own country would be much worse off.

Enjoy the right to say what you want, protest even...maybe even pass judgement...that's why there are service members that do what they do...so you can do what you do...
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:13 PM   #47
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Re: Government Shutdown

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I won't discuss what I do...but I can say with absolute certainty that if we had not gone to Iraq or Afghanistan then our own country would be much worse off.
Well, you can say what you want as well, but I disagree that invading a country that doesn't pose a national security threat to us and spending 8 years there is something that this countries military was never intended to be used for and never should be again.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:15 PM   #48
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Re: Government Shutdown

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Partially correct, so in a sense, not correct at all.

Iraq

Afghanistan

Libya alone was not authorized.
Partially correct, so not correct at all? That makes a lot of sense.

Have you read the Iraq Resolution? Congress passed off the ability to declare war to the President. Plain and simple. You can dress it up however you like, but that's what the words say.

There was no formal declaration of war by Congress. End of story.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:15 PM   #49
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Re: Government Shutdown

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I believe we do have plenty of problems at home we need to address. We don't need to be the world police (don't get me started on Libya).
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It is people like you that scare the **** out of me with your belief in how our military should be used around the world.
Convenient memory you have there.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:16 PM   #50
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Re: Government Shutdown

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Well, you can say what you want as well, but I disagree that invading a country that doesn't pose a national security threat to us and spending 8 years there is something that this countries military was never intended to be used for and never should be again.
ROFL, yet you think Libya is a good choice?
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:19 PM   #51
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Re: Government Shutdown

You guys feel free to discuss this. I just started a ***** thread to try and get it out of my system. Didn't mean for this to start a huge political argument so I prob wont post here again lol.

Basically we're here, can't control it, I'll deal with w/e I'm told to do bc YES I signed the contract. May not like it but its out of my hands. I'll continue to drop bombs until I'm told otherwise. Thats my outlook on this. Not being rude or *****ing at anyone. But no one ever wins a political debate or discussion so I'm gonna move on to asking dumb questions on how to make my car faster lol. You guys have a great night and hope no1 is butt hurt over anything said here.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:19 PM   #52
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Quote:
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Well, you can say what you want as well, but I disagree that invading a country that doesn't pose a national security threat to us and spending 8 years there is something that this countries military was never intended to be used for and never should be again.
If you were there, then you would know why...it wasn't just 9/11...and i think we have a security interest regardless of how long it's been. Bring us out early and we will be back again ...
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:21 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Brent

Well, you can say what you want as well, but I disagree that invading a country that doesn't pose a national security threat to us and spending 8 years there is something that this countries military was never intended to be used for and never should be again.
We have to do it before they're a threat, after might be too late. It's a world filled with religious wackos that want us dead. It sucks that we have to do it, but it's the price we pay for freedom.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:22 PM   #54
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If there is no shut down, can we all be forum friends again? Lol...I LOVE MUSTANGS!
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:23 PM   #55
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If there is no shut down, can we all be forum friends again? Lol...I LOVE MUSTANGS!
Pete you're such a downer. LOL
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:23 PM   #56
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Re: Government Shutdown

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Partially correct, so not correct at all? That makes a lot of sense.

Have you read the Iraq Resolution? Congress passed off the ability to declare war to the President. Plain and simple. You can dress it up however you like, but that's what the words say.

There was no formal declaration of war by Congress. End of story.
I understood the point you were trying to make. However, when Congress passed the resolutions by a land slide (the votes are listed in each article), knowing the ultimate end will be a war, they have done the same thing by another name. It's an argument over semantics, and while sometimes semantics are VERY important, in this situation the end result would have been the same.

Congress was not even consulted prior to our actions in Libya.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:24 PM   #57
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Re: Government Shutdown

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If there is no shut down, can we all be forum friends again? Lol...I LOVE MUSTANGS!
we can be either way lol
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:26 PM   #58
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Re: Government Shutdown

ok I will post but nothing related to thread. Surprised Al hasn't hijacked this yet lol
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:26 PM   #59
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Re: Government Shutdown

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If you were there, then you would know why...it wasn't just 9/11...and i think we have a security interest regardless of how long it's been. Bring us out early and we will be back again ...
I agree that it's hard for the general public to decide on whether a country is a security threat to us or not. That being said, nothing changes the fact that there was no formal declaration of war by Congress. To me it's simple. Just hold the damn vote. Make Congress get off their *** and come in for an emergency vote. Present the facts. If we need to go to war, we go to war.

The problem is all these bull**** Congressmen who are afraid to have their name tied to any truly decisive legislature for fear that they'll lose constituents. So instead of having the balls to do what Congress is supposed to do, they pass it off to the President. Bunch of ****ing *******.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:27 PM   #60
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Re: Government Shutdown

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Convenient memory you have there.
But your entire reasoning for going into Iraq is because the Easter Bunny might be there. Remember? So where are we going next? We can't just save one country and not the rest. If the United States military is there to remove bad people, when can we sign you up to go after Syria, Pakistan and more importantly, China, who are among the worst in human right violations in the world and execute more people yearly than all other countries combined.

It is either you believe in regime change for compassion or all you need to go to war is someone to lie to you about the threat that a country presents to you.

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ROFL, yet you think Libya is a good choice?
I never said that. I said I have less of a problem with it than I do of 8 years in Iraq. I don't think we should be in Libya either.

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If you were there, then you would know why...it wasn't just 9/11...and i think we have a security interest regardless of how long it's been. Bring us out early and we will be back again ...
That is so much bull****. If I was there I would understand? Understand what? I would understand how to fight in a war and I would understand it is a pretty ****ty place to live and I wouldn't be caught dead moving there. Other than that, please tell me what I am missing? Where in that country was the threat to our National Security when we went in that no one else has found?

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We have to do it before they're a threat, after might be too late. It's a world filled with religious wackos that want us dead. It sucks that we have to do it, but it's the price we pay for freedom.
There was no threat. Never was. Let's go knock down every country in the world, because in the future, they may or may not want to fight us.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:27 PM   #61
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Re: Government Shutdown

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I agree that it's hard for the general public to decide on whether a country is a security threat to us or not. That being said, nothing changes the fact that there was no formal declaration of war by Congress. To me it's simple. Just hold the damn vote. Make Congress get off their *** in come in for an emergency vote. Present the facts. If we need to go to war, we go to war.

The problem is all these bull**** Congressmen who are afraid to have their name tied to any truly decisive legislature for fear that they'll lose constituents. So instead of having the balls to do what Congress is supposed to do, they pass it off to the President. Bunch of ****ing *******.
I 100% agree with you here. That is clearly why Congress chose to pass the bill to someone else rather than be held accountable for any results later on.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:31 PM   #62
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Re: Government Shutdown

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...
Because you, as an average US citizen, are privy to the Top Secret and beyond communications, reconnaissance, intelligence, and documents that members of the Pentagon are?
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:32 PM   #63
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Because you, as an average US citizen, are privy to the Top Secret and beyond communications, reconnaissance, intelligence, and documents that members of the Pentagon are?
Alright, so Iraq was a threat to our national security but no one can know because it is top secret!
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:34 PM   #64
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Brent, hindsight is 20/20 should we just ignore everyone and let them treat their people however they want. The bottom line is we're all human beings on this planet and not just countries. If dictators our killing their people, we have a duty as human beings to stop it. Period
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:36 PM   #65
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On a lighter note, DORITOS rereleased their original flavor. Mmmmm blast from the past.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:38 PM   #66
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Re: Government Shutdown

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Brent, hindsight is 20/20 should we just ignore everyone and let them treat their people however they want.
No we shouldn't. However, there were far worse regimes we could have knocked out instead of Iraq if any of the politicians actually gave a **** about using the military for that reason.

Like I said, when are we going to invade China for their massive human right violations? Syria? Let's get rid of all that corruption in Africa too.

Quote:
The bottom line is we're all human beings on this planet and not just countries. If dictators our killing their people, we have a duty as human beings to stop it. Period
See above. Stop being fooled that we went into Iraq for anything than what it is. We wanted a US friendly country smack dab in the Middle East so we could have influence over the liquid gold that exists there.

We did not invade Iraq for humanitarian issues because we don't give a flying **** about any other country. I mean, look how long Gaddafi was let to run Libya while completely ****ting on his people. Why didn't Dubya go after him?

By the way, I love this picture:

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Old 04-07-2011, 09:42 PM   #67
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Re: Government Shutdown

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Alright, so Iraq was a threat to our national security but no one can know because it is top secret!
Should have also added:

And are also privy to how certain information can affect relations with country groups that do not even actively include the United States,but how their dispersal will affect their unions or conflicts that then through convoluted channels does affect our well being.

Just saying. Whether there is or there isn't, people in power think there is, and there may well be information the American public doesn't have the responsibility required to informed on.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:45 PM   #68
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No we shouldn't. However, there were far worse regimes we could have knocked out instead of Iraq if any of the politicians actually gave a **** about using the military for that reason.

Like I said, when are we going to invade China for their massive human right violations? Syria? Let's get rid of all that corruption in Africa too.

See above. Stop being fooled that we went into Iraq for anything than what it is. We wanted a US friendly country smack dab in the Middle East so we could have influence over the liquid gold that exists there.

We did not invade Iraq for humanitarian issues because we don't give a flying **** about any other country. I mean, look how long Gaddafi was let to run Libya while completely ****ting on his people. Why didn't Dubya go after him?

By the way, I love this picture:
Yes, I'm aware that we always have an agenda. So you're a look out for me type a guy, screw other people. WE ARE HUMAN BEFORE AMERICAN, Brent
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:48 PM   #69
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Re: Government Shutdown

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Yes, I'm aware that we always have an agenda. So you're a look out for me type a guy, screw other people. WE ARE HUMAN BEFORE AMERICAN, Brent
No I am not a screw other people. I am a don't make excuses for a unfounded war guy.

If we are human before American then we should be using our military for regime change else where.

You don't get it. Going to war and going "OH ****, there isn't any threat to our country here" doesn't mean you can suddenly say "Oh well, at least we still made this country better!".

It's mind blowing, that that is acceptable to people. Starting a war and then making excuses for it after the original excuses for the war were absolutely unfounded.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:50 PM   #70
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Should have also added:

And are also privy to how certain information can affect relations with country groups that do not even actively include the United States,but how their dispersal will affect their unions or conflicts that then through convoluted channels does affect our well being.

Just saying. Whether there is or there isn't, people in power think there is, and there may well be information the American public doesn't have the responsibility required to informed on.
It wasn't there. That is just as valid as "**** is top secret so MAYBE IT WAS THERE".

Supporting a war based on a lot of maybes. Sounds like a fantastic idea.

Bin Laden got what he wanted though. He got the entire military engaged in the Middle East and has cost this country dearly.
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