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Old 05-05-2011, 01:23 AM   #106
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Just for the record and without reading this whole thread. I am glad that we killed him. I am glad that my president can shine like the sun for single handedly handling the situation. He practically choked him out with his bare hands till he died. I am proud that OUR president's approval ratings have skyrocketed since this killing. And the ships are all on their way right now to bring every one of our troops back home for mothers day weekend. God bless America. Free at last.
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:54 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupidfast5.0

How do you know what rules of engagement were passed down to the operators? Only a select few know that and you aren't one of them.

You've obviously never been there....

.
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:11 AM   #108
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The ROE comes from several sources...just one of those sources is the unit. Some of it comes from Law of War, which gives a Soldier the right to defend himself in combat. You are right...I don't know what that specific units ROE was. I didn't read their OPORD, and I am not an operator. However, I have been deployed multiple times over the past 18 years and speak from experience and knowledge of the law of war, Geneva convention, and several different versions of a unit ROE...ALL addressing a real or perceived threat to life and limb with deadly force.

You want an effing resume!?

If you have never been in the military, then I understand. If you were, or are, you should know better. Pick up a regulation or FM and READ it!
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:15 AM   #109
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They gave him a choice, he could have come back, but he wanted them to kill him
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:26 AM   #110
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One other thing...

It against U.S. Policy to show pictures of dead enemy combatants. Read the Geneva Convention. The administration did the right thing. The media may do it...but they aren't the government.

Have a great day! Since I have never been there, I am going to my job that doesn't exist, type up some TDY orders for travel to another place that I have never been to, an do something for god and country with my imaginary Soldiers...
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:40 AM   #111
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

ok guys, point made and point taken... i actualy totaly agree with you guys on "the perpetuation of violence". i agree that we've had our noses in the middle east for too long, look at all the other countries in the world that haven't had to deal with muslim extremist due to their foriegn policies not being like the the u.s., not being the police of the world.

was i in the streets with everyone else here at ohio state? no, but i would be lying if i said i wasnt doin the "yes dance" in the privacy of my living room.

big picture wise brent and pete08gt you guys make great points that iv'e realized a long time ago policy wise (i think my intial post in this thread reflects that)..... however, it doesnt change the way i feel... and when police officers lose their lives i tend to get real short sighted with blinders on so to speak (not tryning to devaluate the other victims).

not too mention, from the muslim standpoint, i know alot of them are happy because they feel like the u.s. can now "wratchet down" their war on terror, and make it easier for them to travel without as much scrutenizing.

and to touch on your comment pete, i know that u.s. actions and policies help to turn an honest person into a terrorist.

anyway, my uncle is active army c.i.d., my dad was air force police, and i did a 2yr training tour for u.s.c.s. (before homeland security intergration), i was looking for terrorist long before the shyte (official war on terror) was popular. my point is this guys, dont let my seemingly short sighted comments make you think that i dont have a big picture understanding of the situation..... and that the "celebrating in the streets" was'nt gonna be a awsome terrorist recruiting tool.

even though i know wut i know, i still cant help but to feel the way i feel, how the majority of most americans feel.

believe it or not, i told my dad that i wished that we had kept bin ladens death a secret to the public.... specificaly for the valid (unpopular) point you guys made above. but my dad disagreed with me, cause he thinks like other main stream law enforcement... and i suppose the rest of the public..... like a warrant for your arrest, sooner or later we're gonna find you.

even though ive spent hours of classroom time learning the specifcs of wut u guys stated above, i still feel like everyone else... i dont condone the street celebrating, but i cant say at anytime ive condemned it either... and perhaps that's poor character on my part.
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:52 AM   #112
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

and for the record.... im not accusing anyone of being "un-american" or "less than patriotic" on any level. like eveyone else here i just have an opinion.... i apologize to anyone that i may have directly or indirectly made feel that way with my statements.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:23 AM   #113
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

Quote:
Originally Posted by stangman94 View Post
I agree 100% on the military training their troops to shoot to kill but they are also trained in hand to hand combat and to protect themselves and to disarm their enemy. Well he may of had some guards that had guns wich I have no problem with them killing because that would've been self defense but they had the commen courtesy to shoot the woman in the leg then they decided to shoot bin laden in the chest I believe then decided to shoot him in the head also making sure he was dead. I call that murder.

If You were to come into my home murder my family then run and hide for 4-5 years and suddenly I see you one day at a bar then walk up and shoot you in the chest then blow your f'n brains out they would haul me to prison as fast as they could and call me a MURDERER for the rest of my life.
So in the ensuing scuffle of trying this disarming procedure, elevated distraction, and loss of 360* situational awareness, one of the SEAL team gets shot. Why does that SEAL not get to come home to his family? Because it was more important that Osama come back alive so he can then be put to death for crimes he freely admitted to masterminding?

Your simile has not footing in war. None whatsoever. Osama Bin Laden was an approved military target. According to Rules of Engagement, which are based in international agreements for war acts, approved military targets are fair game with the only consideration truly being minimizing collateral and using economy of force. These RoE are not just for US forces. Many countries the world over subscribe to these agreed upon Rules. US violations of these rules are subject to penalties as high as death in accordance with the Uniform Code of Military Justice which derives it's power from the US Constitution. Just as hint, these men are not under investigation for what they did that night because it wasn't a war crime...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stangman94 View Post
I'm not uneducated enough to speak of this. for one I made this thread and if you don't like it don't post on here duh? I'll learn how to spell Al Qaeduh when you learn some manners. Also I'm not trying to enlighten anyone.
You are right, you're not uneducated enough to speak on this. You are, however, NOT educated enough to speak intelligently on this.

You posted onto a public forum, learn to deal with opinions that differ from yours. Not being able to spell what you're typing about accurately doesn't help your situation or credibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stangman94 View Post
If they were not fireing at you then yes you are a murderer plain and simple. I think the real idiot here is the one behind the gun shooting at people that don't threaten him.
This goes back to: Why do the men who get paid peanuts to work a hazardous job that allows you to say whatever pops into your brain with little forethought not get to come home to their families? By your reasoning, US Forces should be fired upon/killed first OR targets (to include foreign nationals) that we are assigned to protect should be fired upon/killed before any action should be taken.

Since you like scenarios, here's one. A US patrol is headed into an Afghan village to bolster relations. This village has already said they will not support Taliban ideology and chose to support the legitimate Afghan government. As a result, a squad of Taliban enforcers rides into the village and starts shooting, and killing, anyone not in their huts to send a message. The US patrol, whom the Taliban has chosen not to fire upon, sit quietly in their convoy until the shooting is over and the Taliban enforcement squad leaves. Those men are murders every bit as much as the Taliban enforcers are. But that's the scenario you've prescribed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stangman94 View Post
It doesn't matter how old I am. I'm old enough.

Every person no matter who, if they shoot someone with intent to harm or kill and they are no threat then yes they are a murderer.
It does matter how old you are. Because you clearly aren't experienced enough to make reasonable argument for your position. You've basically just called the majority of the United States fighting force murders because no matter how much you think you might, you are no where close to understanding all the aspects of war. Before you even start making a reply to this...once again...you don't understand.

What I do has been in direct support of combat operations. I must be a murderer too. You, whenever you buy anything with tax or if you are old enough to have a job, pay our salary with your tax money. You must be a murderer too. The tax on the last bottle of coke you bought may have paid for that bullet that went through OBL's head...
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:24 AM   #114
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

I normally don't join plain debates but some people are not seeing the bigger pictures.

Our military if you agree with them or not are trained to kill and ask questions later to protect the freedom of Americans. To judge one of our military men/woman for their actions during battle, to me, is a slap in their face.

We, the tax payers, have spent $$$$$$$$$$ hunting after a known leader to a terrorist group responsible for countless deaths and attacks on American soil including 9/11.

We now sit here and judge a situation that we were not part of, not fair.

Would you prefer your son or daughter in that situation to calmly walk in and ask him to surrender while risking their life or would you prefer they storm in, take control of the situation and if threatened (by any means even actions without weapons - for all you know is he could have a switch in his hand to detonate bombs) take their life. I think their actions were justified.

Why should the United States spend another $$$$$$$$ protecting him while being transported for trial to have him sit in jail costing American tax payers even more $$$$$$$$ while every terrorist group now attacks or captures individuals to negotiate the release of this individual.

The action of killing is not the full situation or question, if that is the only thing you are focusing on, then your very narrow sighted.

I thank every service man/woman for their actions to protect my freedom, right, wrong or indifferent. Your weren't there...you'll never know the full circumstance of what happened.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:29 AM   #115
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkShadow View Post
So in the ensuing scuffle of trying this disarming procedure, elevated distraction, and loss of 360* situational awareness, one of the SEAL team gets shot. Why does that SEAL not get to come home to his family? Because it was more important that Osama come back alive so he can then be put to death for crimes he freely admitted to masterminding?

Your simile has not footing in war. None whatsoever. Osama Bin Laden was an approved military target. According to Rules of Engagement, which are based in international agreements for war acts, approved military targets are fair game with the only consideration truly being minimizing collateral and using economy of force. These RoE are not just for US forces. Many countries the world over subscribe to these agreed upon Rules. US violations of these rules are subject to penalties as high as death in accordance with the Uniform Code of Military Justice which derives it's power from the US Constitution. Just as hint, these men are not under investigation for what they did that night because it wasn't a war crime...



You are right, you're not uneducated enough to speak on this. You are, however, NOT educated enough to speak intelligently on this.

You posted onto a public forum, learn to deal with opinions that differ from yours. Not being able to spell what you're typing about accurately doesn't help your situation or credibility.



This goes back to: Why do the men who get paid peanuts to work a hazardous job that allows you to say whatever pops into your brain with little forethought not get to come home to their families? By your reasoning, US Forces should be fired upon/killed first OR targets (to include foreign nationals) that we are assigned to protect should be fired upon/killed before any action should be taken.

Since you like scenarios, here's one. A US patrol is headed into an Afghan village to bolster relations. This village has already said they will not support Taliban ideology and chose to support the legitimate Afghan government. As a result, a squad of Taliban enforcers rides into the village and starts shooting, and killing, anyone not in their huts to send a message. The US patrol, whom the Taliban has chosen not to fire upon, sit quietly in their convoy until the shooting is over and the Taliban enforcement squad leaves. Those men are murders every bit as much as the Taliban enforcers are. But that's the scenario you've prescribed...



It does matter how old you are. Because you clearly aren't experienced enough to make reasonable argument for your position. You've basically just called the majority of the United States fighting force murders because no matter how much you think you might, you are no where close to understanding all the aspects of war. Before you even start making a reply to this...once again...you don't understand.

What I do has been in direct support of combat operations. I must be a murderer too. You, whenever you buy anything with tax or if you are old enough to have a job, pay our salary with your tax money. You must be a murderer too. The tax on the last bottle of coke you bought may have paid for that bullet that went through OBL's head...
All of it is very well said...thank you! You said it better than I could have
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:38 AM   #116
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

The 3000+ who died while sitting at work didn't get a chance to defend themselves, their families who will never see them again didn't get a chance to comprehend this, if anything this is how muslims handle things too, an eye for an eye. If you steal something and your finger or hand gets chopped off for stealing, would you steal again? not likely. More things should be handled this way. I hate people who are on death row for years, if your on death row you should be dead pretty soon after. sure some might be wrongly convicted, but pretty small percentage overall. Worth the downside, just as war and things like assassinating d bags like Osama sometimes come with a price. Those Seals are rock stars to me! God bless America!
I am glad they put a bullet in his head and dumped him at sea!
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:47 AM   #117
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

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I am glad they put a bullet in his head and dumped him at sea!
not too mention it was done in accordance to muslim traditions outa respect... cause they've been dumping theyre ppl off of the side of aircraft carriers for centuries now

im sorry, i couldnt help myself.....
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:58 AM   #118
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

I think the USA should stay away from everybody elses problems every time a middle east country has a war we always have to get envolved , Those people have been fighting since before christ was born let them fight their own battles and stay the hell out of it because the more we get envolved in other peoples wars yhe more we suffer,thats why the man is called the president of the united states not the president of the world take care of our own people not every body elses .
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:05 AM   #119
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

I'll even take this a step further to say this is why I laugh at people who say they "Support our troops, but they don't support the war".

It comes from a generation trying to not be as crass, vulgar, and crude as the Vietnam protesters were. But here's a reality check: you can't have it both ways. If you don't support what the military does, you can't support the military. The military kills people and breaks things. If you don't think we are killing the right people or breaking the right things, then you think we are doing something wrong...whether you've come to grips with that yet or not, it IS what you are implying when you say that. There's no other way to look at it. The wife of a part time serial killer doesn't support him because, other than his job, he's a great guy!

But here's another harsh reality check for some of you: This war has been going on long enough now that EVERY man and woman in this 100% volunteer Armed Force has either

A). Enlisted during this war

or

B). Re-enlisted during this war.

We all made our decision, and most of us made the decision based on what we thought was best for us. We didn't hold our finger up to the American pulse to determine what we should do.

P.S. I think this still applies to the topic of the thread, but if it doesn't let me know and I'll open it somewhere else.
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:07 AM   #120
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

Any way you look at it WAR SUCKS !
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:11 AM   #121
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

I support the military. I've had great friends deploy to Iraq and Afghanistan (some multiple times). I sent letters and care packages and magazines and looked forward to getting phone calls, if they got the chance. I didn't think they needed to be there, though. But, it wasn't their decision. And I don't support those that made the decision.
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:14 AM   #122
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

ahmen brother.
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:15 AM   #123
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

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I support the military. I've had great friends deploy to Iraq and Afghanistan (some multiple times). I sent letters and care packages and magazines and looked forward to getting phone calls, if they got the chance. I didn't think they needed to be there, though. But, it wasn't their decision. And I don't support those that made the decision.
While I see the point you are making, those men have either enlisted or re-enlisted during this war. The decision Pennsylvania Avenue made has now been placed in their hands as well.
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Old 05-05-2011, 12:52 PM   #124
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

Only one is still enlisted. He's a lifer.
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:13 PM   #125
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

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Originally Posted by Pete08GT View Post
The ROE comes from several sources...just one of those sources is the unit. Some of it comes from Law of War, which gives a Soldier the right to defend himself in combat. You are right...I don't know what that specific units ROE was. I didn't read their OPORD, and I am not an operator. However, I have been deployed multiple times over the past 18 years and speak from experience and knowledge of the law of war, Geneva convention, and several different versions of a unit ROE...ALL addressing a real or perceived threat to life and limb with deadly force.

You want an effing resume!?

If you have never been in the military, then I understand. If you were, or are, you should know better. Pick up a regulation or FM and READ it!
Resume please?

What is Law of War? I've been in countless ROE briefs and this is the first I've heard of it. Whatever it is, I'm sure it doesn't apply in cases of assassinations and high interest targets.

Quote:
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I think the USA should stay away from everybody elses problems every time a middle east country has a war we always have to get envolved , Those people have been fighting since before christ was born let them fight their own battles and stay the hell out of it because the more we get envolved in other peoples wars yhe more we suffer,thats why the man is called the president of the united states not the president of the world take care of our own people not every body elses .
Spell check FTMFL.

We didn't go there because they were in a skirmish, we went there because they attacked us...
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:56 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupidfast5.0

Resume please?

What is Law of War? I've been in countless ROE briefs and this is the first I've heard of it. Whatever it is, I'm sure it doesn't apply in cases of assassinations and high interest targets.

Spell check FTMFL.

We didn't go there because they were in a skirmish, we went there because they attacked us...
It does...next time you get an ROE brief ask about the Law of War guide...it's a compilation of various source references and case law that are used to provide guidance to leadership when developing ROE. you can find the most recent version on the operational law portion of JAGCNET.army.mil...or just do a google search. Every brief I have ever given has referenced this guide because being prior combat arms I thought it was important to make sure everyone understood where their ROE was coming from. It's important to know because theres no time to second guess...

As for my resume...pm me and I would be glad to point you in the right direction. Im not going to share that information in this forum. Or you could go to your BOLT or the OpLaw section of your divisions OSJA and research everything I am saying. If I am wrong, my bad...feel free to post it all over this thread. But I think you will learn something...and that will only make you a better warrior and leader.
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:58 PM   #127
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

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I'll even take this a step further to say this is why I laugh at people who say they "Support our troops, but they don't support the war".

It comes from a generation trying to not be as crass, vulgar, and crude as the Vietnam protesters were. But here's a reality check: you can't have it both ways. If you don't support what the military does, you can't support the military. The military kills people and breaks things. If you don't think we are killing the right people or breaking the right things, then you think we are doing something wrong...whether you've come to grips with that yet or not, it IS what you are implying when you say that. There's no other way to look at it. The wife of a part time serial killer doesn't support him because, other than his job, he's a great guy!

But here's another harsh reality check for some of you: This war has been going on long enough now that EVERY man and woman in this 100% volunteer Armed Force has either

A). Enlisted during this war

or

B). Re-enlisted during this war.

We all made our decision, and most of us made the decision based on what we thought was best for us. We didn't hold our finger up to the American pulse to determine what we should do.

P.S. I think this still applies to the topic of the thread, but if it doesn't let me know and I'll open it somewhere else.
That is ****ing hilarious.... I am still laughing....



When protestors get killed, the survivors tend to be crass...
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:42 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svtlx
ok guys, point made and point taken... i actualy totaly agree with you guys on "the perpetuation of violence". i agree that we've had our noses in the middle east for too long, look at all the other countries in the world that haven't had to deal with muslim extremist due to their foriegn policies not being like the the u.s., not being the police of the world.

was i in the streets with everyone else here at ohio state? no, but i would be lying if i said i wasnt doin the "yes dance" in the privacy of my living room.

big picture wise brent and pete08gt you guys make great points that iv'e realized a long time ago policy wise (i think my intial post in this thread reflects that)..... however, it doesnt change the way i feel... and when police officers lose their lives i tend to get real short sighted with blinders on so to speak (not tryning to devaluate the other victims).

not too mention, from the muslim standpoint, i know alot of them are happy because they feel like the u.s. can now "wratchet down" their war on terror, and make it easier for them to travel without as much scrutenizing.

and to touch on your comment pete, i know that u.s. actions and policies help to turn an honest person into a terrorist.

anyway, my uncle is active army c.i.d., my dad was air force police, and i did a 2yr training tour for u.s.c.s. (before homeland security intergration), i was looking for terrorist long before the shyte (official war on terror) was popular. my point is this guys, dont let my seemingly short sighted comments make you think that i dont have a big picture understanding of the situation..... and that the "celebrating in the streets" was'nt gonna be a awsome terrorist recruiting tool.

even though i know wut i know, i still cant help but to feel the way i feel, how the majority of most americans feel.

believe it or not, i told my dad that i wished that we had kept bin ladens death a secret to the public.... specificaly for the valid (unpopular) point you guys made above. but my dad disagreed with me, cause he thinks like other main stream law enforcement... and i suppose the rest of the public..... like a warrant for your arrest, sooner or later we're gonna find you.

even though ive spent hours of classroom time learning the specifcs of wut u guys stated above, i still feel like everyone else... i dont condone the street celebrating, but i cant say at anytime ive condemned it either... and perhaps that's poor character on my part.
Hey man, not poor character at all...it's human character. In many ways I feel the same but I usually internalize my emotions...in many things. I am a stoic kind of guy up to a certain point. I am actually glad we are all having this discussion. I have learned some things and respect everyone's opinion...It proves that mustang owners are not just a bunch of idiot muscle heads...
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:04 PM   #129
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

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That is ****ing hilarious.... I am still laughing....



When protestors get killed, the survivors tend to be crass...
Ahem...L O L...anyway...

Would you have preferred vile, abominable, base, vulgar, or contemptible? They all applied to the "shining stars" of the Vietnam War Protesters flinging piss and feces at returning wounded while cursing them and calling them baby killers.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:49 PM   #130
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

Every movement has it's wieners...

GI's were treated like **** by the general public towards the end of the Vietnam war. It was an extremely unpopular war and GI's bore the brunt of it. The draft was pulling unwilling combatants into the fray which didn't help; I would say the majority of enlisted and conscripted GI's were against the war by the end, too. I lived near an Army base (still do) and I speak from first hand experience. There was open hostility between locals and GI's, fights constantly breaking out; our police force started wearing riot helmets when patrolling down town. When the Vietnam war was over, it all changed...
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:55 PM   #131
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

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Every movement has it's wieners...

GI's were treated like **** by the general public towards the end of the Vietnam war. It was an extremely unpopular war and GI's bore the brunt of it. The draft was pulling unwilling combatants into the fray which didn't help; I would say the majority of enlisted and conscripted GI's were against the war by the end, too. I lived near an Army base (still do) and I speak from first hand experience. There was open hostility between locals and GI's, fights constantly breaking out; our police force started wearing riot helmets when patrolling down town. When the Vietnam war was over, it all changed...
The worst thing about it was, due to the conscription, a good number of those soldiers were fighting a war against their choice. Protesters had no business being anywhere near military bases or "welcoming" them at airports. Instead, their blind hatred for anything having to do with the war caused them to take out their fury on a group of people that had no choice or power to change the situation.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:32 PM   #132
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Every movement has it's wieners...

GI's were treated like **** by the general public towards the end of the Vietnam war. It was an extremely unpopular war and GI's bore the brunt of it. The draft was pulling unwilling combatants into the fray which didn't help; I would say the majority of enlisted and conscripted GI's were against the war by the end, too. I lived near an Army base (still do) and I speak from first hand experience. There was open hostility between locals and GI's, fights constantly breaking out; our police force started wearing riot helmets when patrolling down town. When the Vietnam war was over, it all changed...
random factoid from my US history class: the draft only accounted for roughly 30% of the soldiers that actually went to vietnam. not trying to be a troll or anything. even though i am. sorry guys. continue.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:56 PM   #133
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Re: I don't think they should've killed Bin Laden

I think he deserved to die. My teachers don't even teach us about September 11 and Bin Laden for some reason.
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