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Old 01-29-2008, 11:53 PM   #36
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

the treadmill cannot nomatter how fast it turns speed up the air around the plane, therefore, the only thing the plane has to overcome is wheel resistance, which isn't much, then its just like taking off on any other stationary land or water, relative to the earths ground the plane is not moving.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:05 AM   #37
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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and yet another... thread where decorated engineers seem to somehow miss basic theory of relativity. wow..

the plane will fly.
sad. just goes to shows how the education system has failed, and how useless said degrees and programs are in the real world. quite a difference between memorizing certain issues required to pass a test and actually learning a subject and utilizing it in the real world. All this focus on passing this test, then this test, then this test, that nobody really learns much more than just learning how to cram just enough to pass the final a week before the test.

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the treadmill cannot nomatter how fast it turns speed up the air around the plane, therefore, the only thing the plane has to overcome is wheel resistance, which isn't much, then its just like taking off on any other stationary land or water, relative to the earths ground the plane is not moving.
whats worse is if you research the Wright brothers first flights at Kitty Hawk, the plane did not have wheels, it had wooden skis that moved along a groove on a wooden ramp on takeoff. talk about friction. AND STILL THE PLANE FLEW.........
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Old 01-30-2008, 06:34 AM   #38
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

After doing some research, I am back to sitting on the fence. I don't know enough about the physics of flight (just as everyone else in this thread) so I will keep my mouth shut and wait and see.


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sad. just goes to shows how the education system has failed, and how useless said degrees and programs are in the real world. quite a difference between memorizing certain issues required to pass a test and actually learning a subject and utilizing it in the real world. All this focus on passing this test, then this test, then this test, that nobody really learns much more than just learning how to cram just enough to pass the final a week before the test.
Yup, engineers are completely useless in the real world. All we are worth is the piece of paper our degree's are printed on.
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Old 01-30-2008, 07:03 AM   #39
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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Yup, engineers are completely useless in the real world. All we are worth is the piece of paper our degree's are printed on.
From what I've found, yes. That is often true.
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Old 01-30-2008, 07:06 AM   #40
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

OMG SOMEONE TELL DARK SHADOW!!!!! he and i tried to have a logical discussion on this subject during a ride to h'ville one day. ITs the plane moving forward thru the air that creates lift !!!!!!not the amount of thrust created buy the prop or the engines?
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:00 AM   #41
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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it flies

if you think it doesnt, modern aviation as we know it is moot. what keeps a plane moving forward while in the air? sure in the hell aint wheels......

thrust created by the propeller or jet engines or whatever is not being negated. if you think a conveyor running backwards under a plane is going to stop it from taking off, you have obviously not seen a seaplane take off against a current.

there is nothing negating thrust which is what propels a plane forward, which creates lift. the negating force is a conveyor acting on free spinning wheels, which means they equal eachother out to nothing.

you can youtube many small scale scenarios of people attempting the experiment, each time the plane moves forward no matter how fast their treadmill moves against it.

its not that hard a concept. wheels dont move a plane, a propeller does (or jet engine, or rocket, etc).

lol @ aerospace engineers who dont understand simple physics......
The plane isn't going to get enough airspeed if any to get up. Now if the plane can exceed the speed of the treadmill or better yet the tarp being pulled by the truck and get up to the required speed to achieve the proper amount of lift the plane could get up. But, most likely you would run out of a tarp/treadmill first. Now if you had a severely strong headwind wind to take off into then you would have a better chance. The skyhawk that I used to fly would get adequate lift at 40 knots or 35 knots with the flaps down to get of the ground so it would have to reach at least that and be moving in the opposite direction of the truck so I think that the plane would have to be moving at twice the speed of the treadmill to get enough airspeed up just to compensate for standing still of the plane with the tarp being pulled from under it.
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:41 AM   #42
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

Meh, again, this is a REALLY retarded argument...

And for anyone who cares, My emphasis is in structural design/engineering anyway, so even though I may be an ASE, my Aero knowledge amounts to memorizing things out of books to pass a class...which basically means it's useless...woohoo!!!
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:42 AM   #43
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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The plane isn't going to get enough airspeed if any to get up. Now if the plane can exceed the speed of the treadmill or better yet the tarp being pulled by the truck and get up to the required speed to achieve the proper amount of lift the plane could get up. But, most likely you would run out of a tarp/treadmill first. Now if you had a severely strong headwind wind to take off into then you would have a better chance. The skyhawk that I used to fly would get adequate lift at 40 knots or 35 knots with the flaps down to get of the ground so it would have to reach at least that and be moving in the opposite direction of the truck so I think that the plane would have to be moving at twice the speed of the treadmill to get enough airspeed up just to compensate for standing still of the plane with the tarp being pulled from under it.
~Jon~
there's a difference between a plane (wind driven power) and a car (land driven power). The plane needs only a solid surface to take off from. It doesn't matter if that surface is moving forward/backward/left/right/stationary. The deciding factor is the air speed, that is true, but the treadmill has no effect on air speed. The only effect is has on the wheels is to increase their speed, but since they are FREELY spinning (minus a very small friction portion), their speed FREELY increases. Think about a box car. If you hold a box car still, is there this huge force pushing against you if you have it on a treadmill? No... the reason is that the wheels spin freely. The only force against your hand is from the friction on the wheels. This is the same case for the plane. It can move forward EASILY on the treadmill because the engines work against the AIR not against the ground.
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:43 AM   #44
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

I think the much better question, and illustration, would be... if you have a huge fan behind a plane, blowing air forward, will it take off? Now that would be awesome.
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:51 AM   #45
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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Meh, again, this is a REALLY retarded argument...

And for anyone who cares, My emphasis is in structural design/engineering anyway, so even though I may be an ASE, my Aero knowledge amounts to memorizing things out of books to pass a class...which basically means it's useless...woohoo!!!
Its ok, we can quit our jobs and work in fast food or some other field that is FAR more important to humanity. Then, after all of our homeys see how much we are helping humankind they will join us! Eventually all useless things would go away: computers, cars, electricity, bulk manufacturing. People helping people, join the movement with me!
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:52 AM   #46
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

The plane flies because there is no direct mechanical linkage between the plane's thrust & lift generation which is what it needs to fly and it's wheels which are the connection to the ground/treadmill...
In a car, the wheels and thusly the ground are directly mechanically linked to the power source through a driveshaft...there is no such shaft on an airplane...
In the end, this becomes less of a question about aerodynamics and more of a question about angular velocity...

In any event, this is still a really stupid thread...and Mythbusters, as i said before, uses really mediocre science to "solve" their problems...
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:53 AM   #47
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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Its ok, we can quit our jobs and work in fast food or some other field that is FAR more important to humanity. Then, after all of our homeys see how much we are helping humankind they will join us! Eventually all useless things would go away: computers, cars, electricity, bulk manufacturing. People helping people, join the movement with me!
Sounds like a truly Communist America to me...Where do i sign up? lol
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:54 AM   #48
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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Sounds like a truly Communist America to me...Where do i sign up? lol
I'll send you the form. Imagine a world where we are doing useful things to help ours brothers instead of arguing over things that don't even exist, like airplanes.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:39 PM   #49
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

What I meant by the plane would need a really big prop was this.

Im not versed in the physics of flight, I'm just voicing my opinion from the knowledge I do have. The knowledge is that a plane flies when enough air passes under nesth the wings to lift it off the ground, then the speed of the turbine/prop is increased to make it move forward.

If you just ran a plane on the ground on a tredmill it would be sitting in one spot, no airflow under the wings. Now if you had a big enough propeller to pull air towards the plane and under the wings it would start to hover or hop and nothing would happen beyond that until you increased the speed of the propeller enough to pull the plane forward in the air. At that point though the plane isn't on the treadmill and basic flight mechanics take over.

The treadmill doesn't matter once the plane is in the air and MOVING. To get a plane to take on on a treadmill you would have to be able to pull enough air underneath the wings to get it off the ground.

Makes sense to me.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:46 PM   #50
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

Ah....well....at least you have a a reasoning for your thought.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:47 PM   #51
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

Ok I know nothing about engineering but I just want to throw this out there because it's the little that I think I know.

What happens when a plane stalls in flight? How does it recover?

That's my worthless community college education there.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:49 PM   #52
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

^^^ It bounces....and hopes to bounce high enough to maintain flight.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:39 PM   #53
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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What I meant by the plane would need a really big prop was this.

Im not versed in the physics of flight, I'm just voicing my opinion from the knowledge I do have. The knowledge is that a plane flies when enough air passes under nesth the wings to lift it off the ground, then the speed of the turbine/prop is increased to make it move forward.

If you just ran a plane on the ground on a tredmill it would be sitting in one spot, no airflow under the wings. Now if you had a big enough propeller to pull air towards the plane and under the wings it would start to hover or hop and nothing would happen beyond that until you increased the speed of the propeller enough to pull the plane forward in the air. At that point though the plane isn't on the treadmill and basic flight mechanics take over.

The treadmill doesn't matter once the plane is in the air and MOVING. To get a plane to take on on a treadmill you would have to be able to pull enough air underneath the wings to get it off the ground.

Makes sense to me.
sorry fail.

The treadmill doesn't matter at all. The plane doesn't need to be changed at all... it doesn't need a huge propeller or anything. As soon as the engine starts, it will move forward as normal.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:52 PM   #54
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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sorry fail.

The treadmill doesn't matter at all. The plane doesn't need to be changed at all... it doesn't need a huge propeller or anything. As soon as the engine starts, it will move forward as normal.
Well, videos don't help, the show won't help, and it is just not something that is easy to grasp I guess. The world is too stuck in the automobile way of things moving where the wheels have a reason to be there.

After debating it on svtp for the last couple days...and seeing the rediculous attempts of people trying to disprove laws of physics...I have pretty much given up. It will be nice to see the pilot on the show tonight get proved wrong...as I understand he claims the plane will sit still...just like many other pilots believe.

Of which, I believe this debate should be on a pilots license test...and if you can't answer it right, you fail. I don't really like the idea of pilots who don't understand the concept of how an aircraft moves having my life in their hands.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:08 PM   #55
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

But beaner, Im not saying it won't try to move. It's gonna try to move but since it's on a treadmill all that forward momentum is going to be negated because the wheels are still on the ground. It's just gonna roll as if it were taking off but not move at all. Once it has enough momentum to overpower the opposite pull of the treadmill it will move forward.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:18 PM   #56
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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But beaner, Im not saying it won't try to move. It's gonna try to move but since it's on a treadmill all that forward momentum is going to be negated because the wheels are still on the ground. It's just gonna roll as if it were taking off but not move at all. Once it has enough momentum to overpower the opposite pull of the treadmill it will move forward.
THat's because you are stuck on the fact there are wheels. The wheels on the plane go round and round...and that's about it. They do not drive. They do nothing but go round and round...round and round.

The plane moves forward because air is being forced to the rear...creating thrust. The thrust is acting on the air behind the plane...PUSHING it through the air. Whether there are wheels, skis, etc...and whether they are touching the ground...mean nothing. There is no force being applied to counter act the thrust of the plane....therefore it will move forward.

Go back to page 1 of this thread. The first video of a 5 year old and his dad doing this on a treadmill will show you...the plane will move forward just as fast as if it was on solid ground....because nothing is pushing on the front of the plane.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:19 PM   #57
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

imagine yourself on a treadmill with roller skates on. Now, you are holding on to a rope connected to the wall across the room, you start the treadmill and what happens. You sit there and roll in place because you are holding onto the rope. Now start pulling yourself forward with the rope and what happens, you move forward. Your propulsion is not caused by the wheels of the roller skates moving, but from the the force applied to the rope by your arms... Now, substitute skates for landing gear, arms for propeller and rope for air. The plane flies.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:23 PM   #58
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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imagine yourself on a treadmill with roller skates on. Now, you are holding on to a rope connected to the wall across the room, you start the treadmill and what happens. You sit there and roll in place because you are holding onto the rope. Now start pulling yourself forward with the rope and what happens, you move forward. Your propulsion is not caused by the wheels of the roller skates moving, but from the the force applied to the rope by your arms... Now, substitute skates for landing gear, arms for propeller and rope for air. The plane flies.
Right.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:23 PM   #59
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

It is called landing gear for a reason. The main purpose it serves is for landing. They assist in the take off procedure, making it possible for the propeller, ect. to propell the plane over land. They have no propulsion of their own. You shut the plane down on the ground, it won't moved unless towed, pushed, or its turned back on. The planes landing gear are basically just roller skates for the plane.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:23 PM   #60
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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But beaner, Im not saying it won't try to move. It's gonna try to move but since it's on a treadmill all that forward momentum is going to be negated because the wheels are still on the ground. It's just gonna roll as if it were taking off but not move at all. Once it has enough momentum to overpower the opposite pull of the treadmill it will move forward.
and once again, you still fail. I know what you're trying to say, and what you're trying to say is why you're going to keep failing.

Wheels on a plane are not connected to ANY form of power for moving the plane. They are there to simply give the plane something to stand on... it's a plane, it doesn't like the ground... so wheels hold it up. Why pick wheels?

Because they have the smallest friction for the plane moving forward. It wouldn't make much sense to have the plane on blocks. If treadmills could impede the plane taking off.. if it was turned around, it would surely help the plane take off faster. So why don't they put treadmills on air craft carriers? Answer... because it doesn't. They use a type of sling shot to FORCE the plane itself forward. The plane just glides on its wheels.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:24 PM   #61
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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Right.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:25 PM   #62
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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It is called landing gear for a reason. The main purpose it serves is for landing. They assist in the take off procedure, making it possible for the propeller, ect. to propell the plane over land. They have no propulsion of their own. You shut the plane down on the ground, it won't moved unless towed, pushed, or its turned back on. The planes landing gear are basically just roller skates for the plane.
did you just quote yourself? it sounds almost like your arguing with yourself!

AS DID ROB (minus the arguing... Rob keeps all that inside his head)
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:25 PM   #63
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

Here you go...the treadmill is like a table cloth sitting under the dishes on the table. The dishes are the plane. When you yank the table cloth flat...it will come out from under the dishes and the dishes will not move much. (now, if I did this they would be across the room....but it is the same theory for someone that can do it).
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:27 PM   #64
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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did you just quote yourself? it sounds almost like your arguing with yourself!

AS DID ROB (minus the arguing... Rob keeps all that inside his head)
Haha, I didn't mean to, I just hit the wrong quote button lol
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:31 PM   #65
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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did you just quote yourself? it sounds almost like your arguing with yourself!

AS DID ROB (minus the arguing... Rob keeps all that inside his head)
I did cause nate did...figured it was a fitting response to his self quote.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:50 PM   #66
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

is that the new "it" thing?
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:51 PM   #67
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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is that the new "it" thing?
YEah, I saw it on ebay...thought I'd try it...
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Old 01-30-2008, 06:07 PM   #68
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

It's not gonna fly...

But when it flies tonight I'm just gonna say they rigged the show...
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Old 01-30-2008, 06:29 PM   #69
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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imagine yourself on a treadmill with roller skates on. Now, you are holding on to a rope connected to the wall across the room, you start the treadmill and what happens. You sit there and roll in place because you are holding onto the rope. Now start pulling yourself forward with the rope and what happens, you move forward. Your propulsion is not caused by the wheels of the roller skates moving, but from the the force applied to the rope by your arms... Now, substitute skates for landing gear, arms for propeller and rope for air. The plane flies.
That is an easy way to put it.

I still don't think you guys are getting what Im saying. I know that planes dont need wheels to fly. There is NO power that goes to them they are just there to roll and make it easier for the plane to take off.

Im just saying that the plane is going to try and pull itself forward with the prop but all it's going to end up doing is pushing the treadmill away from it faster and still just sit in place with the engine maxed out.

Now if you could pull enough air towards the plane to generate lift then maybe, but unmodified I don't see it working.
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Old 01-30-2008, 06:31 PM   #70
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

Did you watch the videos from page 1?
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