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Old 01-31-2008, 12:27 PM   #106
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

lulz! I wondered when this topic would make it's way here.

/begin thread

There are 2 types of treadmills that should be considered in this topic.

1). A treadmill that will perfectly, yea even flawlessly, match speeds with the amount of thrust the plane's engines are generating (it's makes no difference prop or turbine).

2). A real life treadmill that will eventually be unable to constantly match speed with the thrust produced by the aircraft.

With treadmill number 1, the plane is not allowed to move forward which IS THE ONLY WAY it will generate lift (lift = planez goez up in dah aer and fliez). Therefore, plane does not fly.

With treadmill number 2, the plane IS allowed to move forward and will eventually completely overcome the effect of the treadmill by producing more thrust, generate lift, and take off.

The only thing to consider with number 2 however is if the landing gear blows up due to excess heat from friction causing the plane to break on the runway/treadmill.

/thread
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:42 PM   #107
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

/begin fail

The treadmill has absolutely no effect on the plane's ability to move forward at all.

The plane moves forward and takes off no matter the speed of the threadmill underneath it.

/fail
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:44 PM   #108
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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/begin fail

The treadmill has absolutely no effect on the plane's ability to move forward at all.

The plane moves forward and takes off no matter the speed of the threadmill underneath it.

/fail
ummm......the plane does not move forward if the treadmill is matching thrust speed...but like I said above, that is a mythical treadmill anyway.
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:46 PM   #109
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

and like I said above...

/begin fail

/fail

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Old 01-31-2008, 12:48 PM   #110
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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and like I said above...

/begin fail

/fail

:hmm:
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:52 PM   #111
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

How is the treadmill going to counter act thrust? It is not applying any force to the front of the plane? In fact, it is not apply any force to ANY portion of the plane.

Therefore, how can the treadmill stop the plane from moving forward?
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Old 01-31-2008, 01:04 PM   #112
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

Valid point, so the possibility of the gear overheating becomes an issue on both sides.
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Old 01-31-2008, 01:44 PM   #113
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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ummm......the plane does not move forward if the treadmill is matching thrust speed...but like I said above, that is a mythical treadmill anyway.
the treadmill is a moot point. wheels are free spinning, and in the air, they are USELESS! planes dont move forward by putting power to the ground, it moves forward by thrust exerted on the atmosphere.

Mythbusters basically proved it 3 times, hell Jamie and Adam basically already knew the outcome when they heard the question. the first model on a small scale treadmill, the plane literally jumped off the treadmill when they applied power. the second scaled down test of the full scale (with them pulling the canvas inside the hangar with the model on top) also succeeded flawlessly. then the final full-scale with the truck pulling the canvas across the tarmack with the full-sized plane (with ****tard pilot who said it wouldnt fly) just put the nail in the coffin.

now everyone is trying to grasp for straws and bring up bogus extreme scenarios that will make the plane not fly and debunk mythbusters findings, "oh the tires will heat up and explode at such and such mph, the bearings will fail, if its a 747 then no conveyor would hold the weight and that means the plane doesnt fly!" and **** like that. they forget the basis of the question is very general and its meant to make people use their critical thinking abilities, not come up with outlandish scenarios.
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Old 01-31-2008, 01:47 PM   #114
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

Why are we still talking about this again?
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Old 01-31-2008, 02:41 PM   #115
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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How is the treadmill going to counter act thrust? It is not applying any force to the front of the plane? In fact, it is not apply any force to ANY portion of the plane.

Therefore, how can the treadmill stop the plane from moving forward?
Through friction between the wheels and the treadmil, and the wheel bearings and the wheels, the treadmil can exert a force opposite the thrust of the engines. Granted, it won't be much, which is why the plane flies in the riddle. If, however, you can spin the theoretical treadmil as fast as you wanted you could exert enough opposing force to make the plane sit still.
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Old 01-31-2008, 02:56 PM   #116
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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If, however, you can spin the theoretical treadmil as fast as you wanted you could exert enough opposing force to make the plane sit still.
that is a true statement, but like you know, thats not what the riddle entails, the conveyor only equals the planes speed.

if the riddle was "put a plane on a conveyor, what will it take to make the plane not move forward?" then wed have a whole other ball game.
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Old 01-31-2008, 03:17 PM   #117
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

so, when is the episode?
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Old 01-31-2008, 03:20 PM   #118
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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Through friction between the wheels and the treadmil, and the wheel bearings and the wheels, the treadmil can exert a force opposite the thrust of the engines. Granted, it won't be much, which is why the plane flies in the riddle. If, however, you can spin the theoretical treadmil as fast as you wanted you could exert enough opposing force to make the plane sit still.
Um....only if the bearings froze up could you even fathom creating enough friction to counter act the thrust.

Hell, take off the landing gear and set it on it's belly...or put it on skis....it will still counter act the friction.
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Old 01-31-2008, 03:22 PM   #119
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

What if the treadmil was spinning at the speed of sound? Half the speed of light? Remember, it's a theoretical treadmil.
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Old 01-31-2008, 07:02 PM   #120
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

What if the treadmill is spinning faster than the speed of light?

Now that's some trippy ****.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:04 PM   #121
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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the treadmill is a moot point. wheels are free spinning, and in the air, they are USELESS! planes dont move forward by putting power to the ground, it moves forward by thrust exerted on the atmosphere.

Mythbusters basically proved it 3 times, hell Jamie and Adam basically already knew the outcome when they heard the question. the first model on a small scale treadmill, the plane literally jumped off the treadmill when they applied power. the second scaled down test of the full scale (with them pulling the canvas inside the hangar with the model on top) also succeeded flawlessly. then the final full-scale with the truck pulling the canvas across the tarmack with the full-sized plane (with ****tard pilot who said it wouldnt fly) just put the nail in the coffin.

now everyone is trying to grasp for straws and bring up bogus extreme scenarios that will make the plane not fly and debunk mythbusters findings, "oh the tires will heat up and explode at such and such mph, the bearings will fail, if its a 747 then no conveyor would hold the weight and that means the plane doesnt fly!" and **** like that. they forget the basis of the question is very general and its meant to make people use their critical thinking abilities, not come up with outlandish scenarios.
Yeah I covered that later. To be honest, I was considering a treadmill like what Marcus was explaining, you could keep it going fast enough that could keep it stationary. That's why I first brought up a treadmill that KEEPS IT STATIONARY, and one that could not. I believe I mentioned it as a theoretical one at that. As for the landing gear overheating and failing...how is that outlandish? Simply, it's not. That's all part of your critical thinking process. Now the idea of a treadmill not supporting the weight of a 747, well that just proves your experiment was flawed from the start and you need to "invent" a treadmill that would. But the gear failing is certainly a possibility worth considering. As for the laws of motion and lift though, the planes takes off...on a treadmill that can't keep the plane stationary.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:11 PM   #122
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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Yeah I covered that later. To be honest, I was considering a treadmill like what Marcus was explaining, you could keep it going fast enough that could keep it stationary. That's why I first brought up a treadmill that KEEPS IT STATIONARY, and one that could not. I believe I mentioned it as a theoretical one at that. As for the landing gear overheating and failing...how is that outlandish? Simply, it's not. That's all part of your critical thinking process. Now the idea of a treadmill not supporting the weight of a 747, well that just proves your experiment was flawed from the start and you need to "invent" a treadmill that would. But the gear failing is certainly a possibility worth considering. As for the laws of motion and lift though, the planes takes off...on a treadmill that can't keep the plane stationary.
There is no such treadmill that can keep an airplane stationary...point is mute. It is a physical improbability to have a treadmill that can keep an airplane in one place once the airplane is using it's own power.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:19 PM   #123
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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There is no such treadmill that can keep an airplane stationary...point is mute. It is a physical improbability to have a treadmill that can keep an airplane in one place once the airplane is using it's own power.
LOL, that's why I've said 3 times now it's THEORETICAL!

But so is the whole idea behind the riddle because no one is ever going to put a full size airframe on a "full size" treadmill and test it.
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Old 02-01-2008, 01:00 PM   #124
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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Yeah I covered that later. To be honest, I was considering a treadmill like what Marcus was explaining, you could keep it going fast enough that could keep it stationary. That's why I first brought up a treadmill that KEEPS IT STATIONARY, and one that could not. I believe I mentioned it as a theoretical one at that. As for the landing gear overheating and failing...how is that outlandish? Simply, it's not. That's all part of your critical thinking process. Now the idea of a treadmill not supporting the weight of a 747, well that just proves your experiment was flawed from the start and you need to "invent" a treadmill that would. But the gear failing is certainly a possibility worth considering. As for the laws of motion and lift though, the planes takes off...on a treadmill that can't keep the plane stationary.
*sigh* ok... here's a point of critical thinking.

If you can make a treadmill that can spin at 522,000 mph, then I'll make a wheel bearing that has no friction, and has no possibility of failing. Thus, no matter how fast you spin your GOD DAMN TREADMILL, the plane TAKES OFF.

What's next? The plane didn't take off on a 4 foot treadmill so it's not valid? I mean seriously, this has been PROVEN multiple ways and yet you guys still argue the damn point. Just concede that YOU WERE WRONG. It's not that hard. Trust me, people think less of you for continuing to argue than just admitting you were wrong.
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Old 02-01-2008, 01:44 PM   #125
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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*sigh* ok... here's a point of critical thinking.

If you can make a treadmill that can spin at 522,000 mph, then I'll make a wheel bearing that has no friction, and has no possibility of failing. Thus, no matter how fast you spin your GOD DAMN TREADMILL, the plane TAKES OFF.

What's next? The plane didn't take off on a 4 foot treadmill so it's not valid? I mean seriously, this has been PROVEN multiple ways and yet you guys still argue the damn point. Just concede that YOU WERE WRONG. It's not that hard. Trust me, people think less of you for continuing to argue than just admitting you were wrong.
Well aside from the fact that by simple description of what a bearing is, that would be impossible...

I'll admit I was wrong to YOU when YOU prove me wrong on something. In the mean time, remove the rod from your posterior big boy. I'm not arguing, how many times do I have to say the plane would take off? However, under the very general guidelines the riddle gives you, there are some other options for thought outside the box. Some people like to think of several variables. You apparently, don't so if you don't like it, chill out and let us have our fun.

Oh and because we all know that makes things better.
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:55 PM   #126
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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*sigh* ok... here's a point of critical thinking.

If you can make a treadmill that can spin at 522,000 mph, then I'll make a wheel bearing that has no friction, and has no possibility of failing. Thus, no matter how fast you spin your GOD DAMN TREADMILL, the plane TAKES OFF.

What's next? The plane didn't take off on a 4 foot treadmill so it's not valid? I mean seriously, this has been PROVEN multiple ways and yet you guys still argue the damn point. Just concede that YOU WERE WRONG. It's not that hard. Trust me, people think less of you for continuing to argue than just admitting you were wrong.
seriously beaner,

Just concede that YOU AREN'T THE ULTIMATE UNDERSTANDING OF ALL THAT IS. It's not that hard. Trust me, people think less of you for constantly thinking you are the **** and that you know everything.

There are tons of variables and different ways this can take place, and it is interesting to listen to different arguments. A friend of mine has pages of debates they had about this through email at the company he co-ops with, Gulfstream. I not saying they KNOW the perfect answer either necessarily, maybe they do, but these are people who know a hell of a lot more about flight than you do (maybe you dont think that's possible :dunno: ), and they were not unanimous about the answer.
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Old 02-01-2008, 07:31 PM   #127
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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seriously beaner,

Just concede that YOU AREN'T THE ULTIMATE UNDERSTANDING OF ALL THAT IS. It's not that hard. Trust me, people think less of you for constantly thinking you are the **** and that you know everything.

There are tons of variables and different ways this can take place, and it is interesting to listen to different arguments. A friend of mine has pages of debates they had about this through email at the company he co-ops with, Gulfstream. I not saying they KNOW the perfect answer either necessarily, maybe they do, but these are people who know a hell of a lot more about flight than you do (maybe you dont think that's possible :dunno: ), and they were not unanimous about the answer.
I never said I was. I've had enough of this argument. Think what you will, I don't give a ****. I don't care what your friend may or may not have pages of. Ignorance is a choice.
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:33 PM   #128
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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I never said I was. I've had enough of this argument. Think what you will, I don't give a ****. I don't care what your friend may or may not have pages of. Ignorance is a choice.
I dunno, for some, it seems a way of life.
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:51 PM   #129
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

All my convictions revolve around the treadmil and plane riddle.
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:41 AM   #130
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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All my convictions revolve around the treadmil and plane riddle.
Me too, and it pains me deeply when someone questions it or sees it differently than I do. I'm afraid I might go to hell if too many people disagree with me on the plane and treadmill riddle.




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Old 02-02-2008, 11:56 AM   #131
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

so did uh, anyone watch the episode?
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:02 PM   #132
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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so did uh, anyone watch the episode?
Yes, which is why everyone on every board is sitting here trying to concoct the most obscure situations they can to prove that the test was invalid. The bearing issue seems to be the one everyone centers on as well as the argument that if you used a 747 then the wheels would disintegrate due to speed.

None the less, the test was flawed because they didn't use a real plane (ie 747 or some monster super transport fully loaded with cargo) and because they didn't test what would happen to a plane's tires when they were moving at twice the normal take off speed and because they didn't construct a mythical conveyor that could move at the speed of light to test if enough friction could be made to counter act thrust.

So yeah, watched the episode, however now that I have read all of these glorious theories I realize they didn't test the right thing. They tested the ACTUAL QUESTION and not some hair brained concocted theories.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:05 PM   #133
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

LOL i'm too lazy to go back through all of that, so yeah, guess i'm just gonna have to watch the episode lol
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:08 PM   #134
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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LOL i'm too lazy to go back through all of that, so yeah, guess i'm just gonna have to watch the episode lol
Here's a spoiler...on a treadmill moving well faster than the plane....the plane jumped forward once power was applied to the engine.

On a conveyor...the toy plane took of without issue.

On a life sized conveyor...the real plane took off without any issue.

Therefore, you need to conclude that the tests all failed and it is still true that a conveyor can hold a plane still and counter act thrust.
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Old 02-03-2008, 03:47 AM   #135
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate



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Old 02-03-2008, 04:33 AM   #136
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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Originally Posted by PureVenom View Post
Yes, which is why everyone on every board is sitting here trying to concoct the most obscure situations they can to prove that the test was invalid. The bearing issue seems to be the one everyone centers on as well as the argument that if you used a 747 then the wheels would disintegrate due to speed.

None the less, the test was flawed because they didn't use a real plane (ie 747 or some monster super transport fully loaded with cargo) and because they didn't test what would happen to a plane's tires when they were moving at twice the normal take off speed and because they didn't construct a mythical conveyor that could move at the speed of light to test if enough friction could be made to counter act thrust.

So yeah, watched the episode, however now that I have read all of these glorious theories I realize they didn't test the right thing. They tested the ACTUAL QUESTION and not some hair brained concocted theories.
thats all the question was there for, to make you use higher thinking / critical thinking skills, not to actually test it. its a brain teaser at best, but it got blown out of proportion by teh internet and 95% of the ignorant masses talking **** to the 5% that actually got the question right and that were trying their best to educate the rest on how planes fly, that brought it up to epic proportions, enough that it needed to be tested on a nationally watched show.

the question is simple, thusly the answer is simple. everyone else on teh intrawebs just wants to overcomplicate it or pick apart everything to make it so it doesnt fly. 3 tests out of 3 the plane moved forward, not only that, 3 of 3 tests it takes off. myth pwnage.

its simple. the plane flies because thrust provides forward momentum to move airflow over the wings, the conveyor acts on free-spinning wheels and thusly is not negating the thrust created. done. over. plane flies. thats all the question was intended to make you do, think about how a plane takes off.
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Old 02-03-2008, 03:04 PM   #137
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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Originally Posted by Thomas91169 View Post
thats all the question was there for, to make you use higher thinking / critical thinking skills, not to actually test it. its a brain teaser at best, but it got blown out of proportion by teh internet and 95% of the ignorant masses talking **** to the 5% that actually got the question right and that were trying their best to educate the rest on how planes fly, that brought it up to epic proportions, enough that it needed to be tested on a nationally watched show.

the question is simple, thusly the answer is simple. everyone else on teh intrawebs just wants to overcomplicate it or pick apart everything to make it so it doesnt fly. 3 tests out of 3 the plane moved forward, not only that, 3 of 3 tests it takes off. myth pwnage.

its simple. the plane flies because thrust provides forward momentum to move airflow over the wings, the conveyor acts on free-spinning wheels and thusly is not negating the thrust created. done. over. plane flies. thats all the question was intended to make you do, think about how a plane takes off.
better look out... people will lose respect for you for standing up for the correct answer. They will think that you think you know everything.
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Old 02-03-2008, 03:54 PM   #138
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

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better look out... people will lose respect for you for standing up for the correct answer. They will think that you think you know everything.
I do :dunno:
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Old 02-03-2008, 04:07 PM   #139
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Re: The ol' Plane vs treadmill debate

.99999~ =/= 1
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