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Old 03-20-2008, 02:10 PM   #1
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Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

So who watched it? Thoughts? I thought it was a good speech. He tackled both sides of the race issue. He pretty much said he was against affirmative action by saying he understood how a white person can feel resentment toward a black person who gets a better job or opportunity at a better education because of the color of their skin. I don't have anything against the man other than the many issues I disgaree with him on, socially. My three biggest concerns going into this election are the Iraq War, the economy and taxes. Two of those tie into the economy issue.

I think he would be a decent President. He'd be better than Hillary for sure. I like McCain to an extent. I respect his service to this country and what he was put through. I don't agree with his stance on the Iraq war. I feel though that he would manage it better than Bush has. I have to believe that McCain would use more restraint when threatening other countries like Iran and Syria.

Obama though, I almost want him to win just so we can get out of Iraq. I almost want him to win so we can get spending under control. The only thing that I know won't happen when Obama gets elected though is tax relief.

The one thing I absolutely can't stand about Democrats is how they appeal to the very poor of America. They want to give them money out of my pocket to try to rid America of poverty. That never works. That goes against the very principle of a free market. There will always be the poor, the middle class and the rich. What can be done is widening the middle class so that those who really want to make a good decent life for them have the opportunity to. You will always have those who are lazy and unmotivated. I don't wish to give handouts to these people. I think the government should, with limited involvement, do what it can to create a free market that allows anyone who really wants to push themselves to make it. That doesn't exist right now and it's mainly because of our tax system. I'm talking from the government side of things, not the peoples. The peoples problems range from being unable to control their spending or just the inability to motivate themselves to do something other than just get by in life.

I paid 21% of my income last year to the federal government. (I didn't even make over 20,000). That includes social security that I'll never see and medicare. The rest goes to wasteful government programs and the 12 Billion dollar a month war in Iraq.

I'm sick of Democrats opposing the fairtax because it will hurt the poor. That's a load of bull****. If someone who makes less than 20,000 dollars a year could keep that 21% to themselves they could better afford rent, car payment or other essentials. They wouldn't be taxed on essentials such as groceries. Only on non essential items, such as entertainment. You want to talk about helping the poor.

Now with all that being said, I'm still undecided on who I will cast my vote for in November. 1/3 of me says Libertarian candidate, 1/3 of me says McCain and the other part of me says Obama, should he make it, which I think he will. There is no all around bad or good guy out of those three. Libertarians have a decent idea but their hands off approach no matter what is too extreme. McCain is better on social issues than Obama is but I don't like the war and it's impact on this countries economy and military. Obama is the best chance for something drastic happening to take our country away from what it's doing now. The Iraq war, the out of control spending. These things would be possible if he were elected. My only problem is accepting his social stances if he were elected. If he did get elected, there would be an excellent chance he would see two terms too.

So with that being said, what things do you think are the most important issues going into 2009 and who do you best think is able to fix these problems?
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:20 PM   #2
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

I agree with your 3 main issues, the war, taxes, and the economy. I much prefer Obama on the Democrat ticket over the devil he's running against, but I just don't feel comfortable enough with him. I mean, who really has heard of Obama before 2 years ago? It's like he popped out of nowhere and immediately gained all the support.

I agree with some of Mccain, but definitely not all.

To be honest...I don't agree with any cadidate fully, but don't disagree with any fully either. I do, however, think that bringing Obama or Hillary into office with their outlook on the war would be a disaster. Both will call for an almost immediate withdrawal of troops, and I think that would be one of the largest mistakes we can make at this point.

How would you feel if you lost your father/mother/brother/son in this war just to have us pull out and basically say the whole thing was a mistake. I would have to see us pulling out as a basic way of saying we just wasted our people's money, time, and lives for no cause at all.
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:29 PM   #3
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

The most important issues for me are:

1. Gas prices
2. The economy: A -getting lazy asses off their asses and out to do the work that the gov't pays them not to do...B - keeping money here....C - Moving to Fair Tax
3. Immigration - Sending them home and implementing B from above so the truth of "Doing jobs americans are paid not to do" can be thrown out...

I don't think there is a single good choice in this election no matter who gets the nod for the dems. I think this election is a perfect example of "voting for who is the least bad" cadidate.

A dem or a repub is going to win. No matter which one wins, taxes are going to rise. None of them have any plans for helping the ridiculous gas price patterns...and in fact support making it worse. None of them want to fix this immigration problem. None of them want to do anything about the major vote farms that exist with millions sitting around waiting for their free money every month...and then asking for more every April come tax time.

Over all, this election really does suck. The Iraq thing, there are lots of things I would change about what is going on, however, almost none of it would be under any of the candidates control. The only thing that will effectively pass relating to Iraq is to bring the troops home. Anything else, no matter how good/bad it is, will receive nothing but resistence. It seems that the Iraq issue is the only issue where the professional politicians are listening to their constituents. Other important issues like fuel prices, immigration, etc....they seem to listen to the highest bidder.

So, come november, I will be one of the many that do not get out there and vote. None of the potential candidates represent me...and it would literally be a coin toss for me...with the exception of if Hitlery got the dem nod...then I would just be voting to vote against her as I think the clintons are one of the largest wastes of flesh on this planet.

Ok, there is my response...November = no vote for me.
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:33 PM   #4
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

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To be honest...I don't agree with any cadidate fully, but don't disagree with any fully either. I do, however, think that bringing Obama or Hillary into office with their outlook on the war would be a disaster. Both will call for an almost immediate withdrawal of troops, and I think that would be one of the largest mistakes we can make at this point.
I don't feel it'd be a mistake. A mistake would be continuing to lose lives over a war that should have never been started in the first place.

Quote:
How would you feel if you lost your father/mother/brother/son in this war just to have us pull out and basically say the whole thing was a mistake. I would have to see us pulling out as a basic way of saying we just wasted our people's money, time, and lives for no cause at all.
I feel the opposite of you. I would feel relieved for the soldiers who have yet had to give their lives for an unnecessary war. One that is taking it's toll on this country every day. It doesn't matter if we pull out of Iraq today or 10 years from now. Eventually, Iraq will fall back into the hands of the very people we are fighting now. It will never be a "Pro Democracy" country. Their religion prevents it. Trying to instill "Democracy" into a Muslim country like Iraq is a waste of time, money and lives. On top of that it wasn't even the reason we went over there. We went over there because they were a threat to our country. Plain and simple. No way to spin that. That's what Bush said. They got wmd's and they are harboring Al Qeada. Neither turned out to be true.

On top of that their current government continues to mis deadline after deadline we give them for getting their country in a position to allow us to leave.

I think the greater insult to military families and soldiers is to assume that they want to give their lives for a war that was never needed in the first place instead of admitting that the war was a mistake and pull out of Iraq. I think that would be the right thing to do. I don't see how staying in Iraq and allowing more of our troops to die and more of money to be wasted is honoring those that have fallen in Iraq already.

Another thing that has never been defined by someone who currently supports our war in Iraq is what defines a victory? What will make it worth the almost 4,000 lives that we have lost over there? We could have stayed out of Iraq and they would have never been a threat to us so that can't be success. The only success I see is making Iraq a Democratic nation, which just isn't going to happen. It's never happened in the Middle East and never will until the people in the Middle East determine that now is the time to change the way their people live. That hasn't happened yet and I don't see it happening anytime soon.
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:39 PM   #5
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

I somewhat agree with you there brent...only, I see it as I think it needed to happen to get bone head out of control...however, I do think we over stayed our welcome. I believe they too will fall back in line with their old ways...and it really is useless to try and get them to conform to our ways. We are the enemy to their culture...always have been, always will be.

The problem now is, that we have stayed there this long and been so resolute in our being there. If we pull out now, it is going to show Iran and N. Korea that all they need to do is last long enough and they will be able to get us to give up eventually.

What we should have done was just gone in, taken out saddam, let the gov't of their choice get established, and get out.

There are just much more pressing issues right now here at home to worry about and spend that money on.
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:40 PM   #6
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

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Ok, there is my response...November = no vote for me.
That really kills me too It's you're right not to vote I just hate seeing people not do it. I feel obligated to do it, no matter if the candidates suck or not. I can always find one person who I agree with the most when it comes down to it. Whether or not they have a chance or not is not the issue. I just feel like I always have to vote or I feel guilty. Not saying you should feel guilty, just saying that's how I would feel if I didn't vote.

Other than that I think me and you are on the same page. Immigration is important too. It's counter productive to go start a war in the Middle East over national security issues while allowing Mexico to invade us from the south.
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:48 PM   #7
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

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That really kills me too It's you're right not to vote I just hate seeing people not do it. I feel obligated to do it, no matter if the candidates suck or not. I can always find one person who I agree with the most when it comes down to it. Whether or not they have a chance or not is not the issue. I just feel like I always have to vote or I feel guilty. Not saying you should feel guilty, just saying that's how I would feel if I didn't vote.

Other than that I think me and you are on the same page. Immigration is important too. It's counter productive to go start a war in the Middle East over national security issues while allowing Mexico to invade us from the south.
While I agree voting is something that people should do...and should feel is important to do...however I also agree that more people need to sit their asses home when they feel the way I do about the candidates instead of just voting because the UFC fighters told me to.

If I were to go through all 3 of the main players right now, I would find maybe 1 or 2 items from each person that I would agree with. Maybe. Because of that, my vote becomes nothing more than a coin toss for me. I want to vote for the candidate that represents me..."Gov't of the people, by the people, for the people"....well, none of the choices are "Of me" so they certainly won't be "By me" or "For me".

Basically, here is my stance on the 3 main players right now:

1. McCain - I think he is a donkey masquerading as an elephant.
2. Obama - I believe he is an all talk, no action kind of guy. Really knows how to talk, but has no idea how to put words into action.
3. Hitlery - I believe that the Clintons have one and only one item on their agenda....The Clintons. She didn't chose NY for her senate race for nothing...Why not her home state if they are such great leaders and people?

So, in order to vote, I would really have to put their names in a hat and draw. Granted, Hitlery would never find her way into the hat...her piece of paper I'm sure would graze off the rim and hit the floor...but the other two...I can't chose.

Because of that, and the fact that they in no way represent me, I can not bring myself to vote. If I vote, and the "wrong" person gets into office, I would feel more guilty than if I were to not vote. And in this case, whomever wins, is the "wrong" person to me.

They need an over all option..."Other....they all suck...time for a do-over"...then I would get out there and vote...and that would be my vote.
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:56 PM   #8
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

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I somewhat agree with you there brent...only, I see it as I think it needed to happen to get bone head out of control...however, I do think we over stayed our welcome. I believe they too will fall back in line with their old ways...and it really is useless to try and get them to conform to our ways. We are the enemy to their culture...always have been, always will be.
Exactly.

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The problem now is, that we have stayed there this long and been so resolute in our being there. If we pull out now, it is going to show Iran and N. Korea that all they need to do is last long enough and they will be able to get us to give up eventually.
See, I don't buy into that argument, completely. I think the American people are finally to start to understand that what we did in Iraq was just flat out wrong. We started a full scale war against a country that never provoked us. They never did the things that our President said they did or were doing. At the end of the day it was just a flat out wrong war.

I think if North Korea or Iran ever tried to attack us or provoke us we would be able to respond with much more support than the Iraq war as had over it's 5 year existence.

Quote:
What we should have done was just gone in, taken out saddam, let the gov't of their choice get established, and get out.

There are just much more pressing issues right now here at home to worry about and spend that money on.
Agreed, 100%
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:12 PM   #9
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

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See, I don't buy into that argument, completely. I think the American people are finally to start to understand that what we did in Iraq was just flat out wrong. We started a full scale war against a country that never provoked us. They never did the things that our President said they did or were doing. At the end of the day it was just a flat out wrong war.

I think if North Korea or Iran ever tried to attack us or provoke us we would be able to respond with much more support than the Iraq war as had over it's 5 year existence.

That's the thing though, talk to the people who have actually been over there and you'll see that we have found WMD's, just not in giant multimillion pound stacks like the American public would like to see.

I think if we had a real view of what is actually going on over there we would have either pulled out within a year of arriving or have taken it off the map by now. The sugarcoated version of everything making it back to the states in sickening.
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:12 PM   #10
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

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See, I don't buy into that argument, completely. I think the American people are finally to start to understand that what we did in Iraq was just flat out wrong. We started a full scale war against a country that never provoked us. They never did the things that our President said they did or were doing. At the end of the day it was just a flat out wrong war.

I think if North Korea or Iran ever tried to attack us or provoke us we would be able to respond with much more support than the Iraq war as had over it's 5 year existence.

Technically, they did provoke us. In Bush War I....rules were laid out regarding behavior. For the next decade, those rules were basically laughed and at business went as usual for them. They would play along a little here and there, and then would just scoff at requests and move on. It was only a matter of time before something did come out of that place...and really, Saddam needed to get out of there. His treatment of his own people was enough reason really.

Granted, the packaging the american people were given was rather thin...I do believe what happened needed to happen. We have just tried to apply too much muscle around what needs to come of the freedom.

However, us leaving now just shows future combatants that all they have to do is out last us. If things don't go well in the first day or two, then the american people will turn on the president and eventually, if they time it right, they could win before running out of soldiers. Had Iraq just happened this year, with the new election, they would only have to survive a single year before "winning" because we gave up and went home.

We really need to just let them get their stuff setup, gov't wise, and get out. Forget getting their troops ready to protect the gov't. Just get the gov't organized, then get out. Let them worry about protection. Without our continued protection, they would be forced to **** or get off the pot and things would get done much quicker. However, they are milking it for all it is worth now.
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:13 PM   #11
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

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.... The sugarcoated and spun version of everything making it back to the states in sickening.
Fixed...
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:24 PM   #12
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

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That's the thing though, talk to the people who have actually been over there and you'll see that we have found WMD's, just not in giant multimillion pound stacks like the American public would like to see.
The problem with that argument is that those minuscule amount of chemicals we found were never enough to warrant the war that we got ourselves into. Iran, Syria and other Middle Eastern countries have the same amount of material Iraq did at the time of invasion.

That seems like spin to me. Trying to play off the war was needed because we found traces of WMD. Iraq was never in a position to use those against us. If they were they would have used them within the first two weeks of us attacking. They weren't a threat at the end of the day.

I can talk to just as many people as you can that have been over there and they'll tell me that this war wasn't worth it. That's not a legitimate argument. You can always find someone who will try to justify what we did by trying to play of the small of amount of chemicals we found as being actual weapons of mass destruction.

Quote:
I think if we had a real view of what is actually going on over there we would have either pulled out within a year of arriving or have taken it off the map by now. The sugarcoated version of everything making it back to the states in sickening.
I think when it all boils down to it the war was unneeded. Iraq wasn't a threat to us. There is no real view. What you see if what you get. 5 years. That's how long we have been over there. If you haven't gotten the jest of it yet I don't know what it's going to take. Was Iraq worth a 5 year, almost $1 trillion dollar war? The 4,000 people we have lost? Over Iraq? It took use two weeks to over throw Iraq. They were just never a threat.
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:33 PM   #13
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

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Technically, they did provoke us. In Bush War I....rules were laid out regarding behavior. For the next decade, those rules were basically laughed and at business went as usual for them. They would play along a little here and there, and then would just scoff at requests and move on. It was only a matter of time before something did come out of that place...and really, Saddam needed to get out of there. His treatment of his own people was enough reason really.
A bunch of rag heads shooting unguided missiles at the top air force in the world is no reason to start a 5 year war with them. If you want to toss a few bombs at them then sure. If you want to go in with a two week war and overthrow Saddam then sure. No, we didn't do that. We went balls to the wall and decided that we wanted to setup democracy in the Middle East.

That's not our job. I'd go as far to say it's not our job to tell Iraq where they can fly in their own airspace. Let Iran deal with Iraq. They hate each other. Iraq would attack Iran before they would have ever attacked us. You'll never convince me that Saddam would ever have launched an attack on us before first attacking Iran.

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However, us leaving now just shows future combatants that all they have to do is out last us. If things don't go well in the first day or two, then the american people will turn on the president and eventually, if they time it right, they could win before running out of soldiers.
The first 5 years... not the first day or two.

Remember, we are in Iraq now because we are instilling democracy with them. We aren't overthrowing someone still. Saddam is still not going strong. The Republican Guard isn't out there fighting us still.

We can overthrow Iran and North Korea in less than a year. Iran easier than North Korea. There is no outlasting the United States as far as governments go. We can take care of those two countries without losing 4,000 people like we have in Iraq. What they can outlast us at is the insurgency that has taken place in Iraq. When you have the entire Middle East as a recruiting ground now and they don't have to come to America to fight Americans, you suddenly start hurting Americans. Day after day people are blowing themselves up. We can't defend against that. We can't tell insurgent from civilian.

That's a war we can't win. We can handle governments. If Iran attack us or Israel that government would be gone within 6 months. Our problem is we don't just take care of the problem. We stick around.

It's no coincidence either that we stick around the most in the Middle East where the most oil is in the country. It's not some vast conspiracy theory that this war was started in some part because of oil. Iraq was threatening to stop trading oil in dollars and instead trade in Euros which would have been devastating to our dollar and gas prices would have increased.

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We really need to just let them get their stuff setup, gov't wise, and get out. Forget getting their troops ready to protect the gov't. Just get the gov't organized, then get out. Let them worry about protection. Without our continued protection, they would be forced to **** or get off the pot and things would get done much quicker. However, they are milking it for all it is worth now.
I agree. But we aren't and if you had to make me choose between sticking it out another 5 years doing what we are doing now or withdrawing right this second, I'd say get them the hell out of there.
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:11 PM   #14
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

sorry im not conversing about the presidential debate but id throw in my 2 cents concerning what has been mentioned in the thread. it isnt the poor or the rich we need to worry bout - we need to worry about our shrinking middle class. my personal opinion is to aid financial aid for collegiate students. **** the poor, **** the rich. we need to free the financial shackles that are holding down people who actually need it... not some rich guy... not my trailer trash neighbors on disabilities and welfare... rather people like me specifically
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:47 PM   #15
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

^ That's basically what I am saying. The middle class is never represented by politicians. It's mainly the poor that get all the sympathy.
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:55 PM   #16
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

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^ That's basically what I am saying. The middle class is never represented by politicians. It's mainly the poor that get all the sympathy.
And the rich that pay to get them in office.
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Old 03-20-2008, 06:13 PM   #17
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

i think that government controlled banks are in the near future... 1-3 decades would be my guess.
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Old 03-20-2008, 06:15 PM   #18
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

Federal Reserve anyone? It just bailed out Bears Stearn after they ran their company irresponsibly.
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:26 PM   #19
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

All I can say it dont be a girly man vote Republican
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:38 PM   #20
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

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Originally Posted by wiarumas View Post
sorry im not conversing about the presidential debate but id throw in my 2 cents concerning what has been mentioned in the thread. it isnt the poor or the rich we need to worry bout - we need to worry about our shrinking middle class. my personal opinion is to aid financial aid for collegiate students. **** the poor, **** the rich. we need to free the financial shackles that are holding down people who actually need it... not some rich guy... not my trailer trash neighbors on disabilities and welfare... rather people like me specifically

I agree with you. My Girlfriend is going to a 4 year school (she will grad with 4 1/2 years due to she is a double major) and the price she is going to pay back we will be in debt for a very long time. She will make est $35,000-$40,000 a year at a full time job when she Grad.'s in Dec. at a newspaper.... I go to school also but at a small school and for 1 credit (3 hrs) is $400. With gas here at $3.35-$4.19 for the "cheap stuff" its very hard to pay for gas and drive to work. yeah and here in Indiana they put a cap on our tax for our house' and now raised the sales tax by 1% (now makes it 7% sales tax, but if you are in the 7 countys around Indianapolis its now going to be 9% for food and drink tax due to the new colts place.) Also they are going to raise the tax on your income to make up for the 1% cap. so I dont own a house yet I have to pay more because some low life does not want to pay his share. I herd on my CB the other night going home from Oklahoma that the truck drivers are going to stike soon due to the price of fuel. if that happens we will be in a world of hurt.
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:42 AM   #21
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

I am seriously starting to think about moving to another country. Washington has just about destroyed this one. And these idiots we call "Americans" our too stupid to do anything about it.

The fact is, we'll probably have a Democrat in office next year. That's wonderful, if you're living on welfare. If you're not, you're ****ed.

I make 60k a year. But with a pregnant wife who is still in college and isn't working, I'm having a very difficult time saving money for my child that is on the way. Things have gotten so ridiculously expensive that 60k is no longer even a drop in the hat. It used to be that it would be a great salary for someone as young as me. Not any more.

The best part is that I owe the government $900 in taxes. Apparently, the $9000 I paid in federal income tax throughout the year just doesn't cut it. It's a good thing I get my little $600 rebate check not long after. That's what, 6 tanks of gas and a couple of trips to the grocery store? Please. They might as well keep it as far as I'm concerned.

The fact is, it does not matter who becomes President in 2009. We are not going to be any better off. America had a chance for real change in the primaries, but scoffed at it. McCain is a liberal, Clinton is a liberal, Osama is a liberal. A elephant wearing a hat is still a ****ing elephant. There are no such thing as conservatives in Washington any more. There are moral conservatives, but that's about it.

I think America is headed down a very dangerous path.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:47 AM   #22
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

^ agree, I did the IRS est. rebate thing online and I will only get $395 back. not $600.
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Old 03-21-2008, 04:23 PM   #23
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Re: Obama's Speech & Other Ramblings *Intelligent Discussion Only*

This about sums it up: Why Ron Paul Still Runs | Newsweek Politics: Campaign 2008 | Newsweek.com

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Even though I disagree with him on some other issues, at least he stands for what he believes in. But he will be marginalized--he won't be able to get into the debates, because we don't have a true democracy in this country. The two parties are essentially the same, and a Libertarian candidate, a Green Party candidate, Ralph Nader--they are going to get nothing. Unless of course they are Ross Perot and have $10 billion, in which case they put you right in front on TV. The media isn't really interested in issues, they are more interested in notoriety.
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