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Old 07-16-2008, 12:06 PM   #1
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More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

One of my co-workers got a flex fuel Impala as his new company vehicle. I was talking to him at lunch today about it. He said he ran a couple of tanks of straight E-85 and a couple of tanks of regular unleaded (I assume E-10) gas just for the heck of it to see a difference. He said over 4 tanks (2 tanks of each fuel), the E-85 was one quarter of a penny (thats $0.0025) cheaper per mile. That comes out to $0.75 EVERY THREE HUNDRED MILES.

Ironically enough, I had an email when I got back to the office about a new survey of registered voters about ethanol. 59% of people surveyed believe that the US should increase the use of ethanol as a major fuel supply to offset the cost of gasoline. Only 8% of people surveyed believe that ethanol production is a contributing factor to increased food and produce cost, specifically corn and grain.

Using my own super-reasoning skills, this suggests that 59% of Americans are either completely uninformed or believe that saving 3 quarters per tank of gas is far more important than paying an arm and a leg at the grocery store, even though Bill Lapp, author for the Grocery Manufacterer's Assocation says, "the rapid expansion in the use of corn to produce ethanol is currently the most significant factor driving corn and other agricultural commodity prices to record levels".

America is shooting itself in the foot for the sake of being "eco-chic" or "green-chic".

Also, my co-worker told me about a new hybrid vehicle technology, similar to the Chevy Volt that uses an electric motor coupled with a gasoline generator - instead of an electric motor couple with a gasoline engine like with the Prius. This new technology differs from the Volt, however, in that you can plug it into the wall and power your house from your car in order to shift load or fuel switch during high priced electricity hours. Pretty neat, I am trying to find info on it.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:11 PM   #2
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

My guess is that 59% are not informed and are just drinking the coolaid being spewed to them.

If they did some research, they would also see that you will lose gas mileage the more ethanol you put into your gas mixture. With e10, you are looking at around 2-3%. With E85, your looking at much more...like around 25-30%.

I agree that Ethanol is not the answer as it is lowering mileage and driving up food prices.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:22 PM   #3
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

^ Thats what I was saying. My coworker found that the lower mileage/lower cost of ethanol is the exact same cost for the average person - no average person is going to figure out their mileage cost down to 0.0005 of a dollar.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:26 PM   #4
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

What's even funnier is the people at the gas stations are probably the most misinformed or uninformed ppl concerning this matter. I spoke to the manager of a local station soon after noticing they switched to a E10 blend. The manager had no idea what it was, what the difference was, why it was better/worst. All he could do was hand me a pamphlet of propaganda put out by the oil company that was given to him.

Of course nowhere in the pamplet does it state anything about the lower fuel mileage nor the fact that it is in fact, not any cheaper than normal gasoline. I guess they forgot to include those little pieces of information.

My boss got this genious idea to get this 1 gallon bottle of eco-boost or some **** like that. 100% organic, supposed to add it to your gasoline. I read what it was and it is basically moonshine. I asked if he was seeing any increase in mpg and he said it has inceased about 3 on an average tank. I then asked if he's driving any differently and he said he's also driving alot easier than he used to. Well there ya go...driving habits ftw.

He's almost to the point of mandating us adding this in all the trucks. Won't ever make it in mine, we'll see who gets the better mpg.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:26 PM   #5
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

The answer is to not make ethanol from corn. Cellulosic ethanol can be made a lot less energy (as compared to growing corn) and you don't make it out of food.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:44 PM   #6
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

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The answer is to not make ethanol from corn. Cellulosic ethanol can be made a lot less energy (as compared to growing corn) and you don't make it out of food.
Waste product from wood, textile, and food production could be/are feasible.....
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:28 PM   #7
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

i think they mean if we use ethanol and gas, then the prices should quit rising so rapidly because we will have more fuel resources at that point and neither of the two will be sucked dry so quickly.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:35 PM   #8
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

Except the fact that it will take more of the ethanol than the gas...so in effect, we will be burning more resources up.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:43 PM   #9
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

but thats more than you have if you dont use ethanol at all, then your just burning gas.its not so much as replacing gas with ethanol as it is, just help redcuing consumption.i think we should all just be bike riding hippies personally...
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:07 PM   #10
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

At least we don't have to buy ethanol from America hating towel heads.
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:17 PM   #11
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

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At least we don't have to buy ethanol from America hating towel heads.

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Old 07-16-2008, 02:18 PM   #12
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

If only the ethanol didn't cause us to burn through the stuff made from the stuff bought from the america hating towl heads....
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:32 PM   #13
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

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If only the ethanol didn't cause us to burn through the stuff made from the stuff bought from the america hating towl heads....
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:36 PM   #14
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

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2:
See below....and my reference to the fact that you lose gas mileage by adding ethanol...therefore, you are going through more gas as a mixture than you would if you were just running straight gas...so you therefore are using at least as much oil if not more because you mixed the gas with ethanol.

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My guess is that 59% are not informed and are just drinking the coolaid being spewed to them.

If they did some research, they would also see that you will lose gas mileage the more ethanol you put into your gas mixture. With e10, you are looking at around 2-3%. With E85, your looking at much more...like around 25-30%.

I agree that Ethanol is not the answer as it is lowering mileage and driving up food prices.
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:43 PM   #15
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

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See below....and my reference to the fact that you lose gas mileage by adding ethanol...therefore, you are going through more gas as a mixture than you would if you were just running straight gas...so you therefore are using at least as much oil if not more because you mixed the gas with ethanol.
i guess I'm going to have to give a math lesson:

In the case of E-10, you're burning 2-3% more mix. But the mix is only 90% gasoline. Let's say you're going through 100 gallons of standard gasoline, just to make life easy on us. You'd be going through 103 gallons of E-10. It's only 90% gasoline, though, so you're only going through 92.7 gallons of gasonline and a bit more than 10.3 gallons of ethanol. LESS GASOLINE THAN STRAIGHT GAS!!

In the case of E-85, you're burning 25-30% more mix. At 100 gallons of standard gasoline, that would be 130 gallons of E-85. It's only 15% gasoline, though, so you're only going through 19.5 gallons of gasoline and 110.5 gallons of ethanol. LESS GASOLINE THAN STRAIGHT GAS!!
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:50 PM   #16
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

However, that is onyl in 1 tank. And I am mainly refering to the E10 stuff since it is mostly gas. E85 makes much more sense since you are only using a tiny amount of gas.

Now, over the course of a year...Say it normally takes you 100 full tanks of gas per year to do all your driving. Now, because of the 10% ethanol, you have to now use 103 full tanks of gas.

Now, as your usage goes up, and the more tanks you use, the higher this number of extra tanks gets. 1000 tanks = 1030 tanks...etc.

The piont is, that putting the ethanol in the gas isn't saving anything. The 10% mix is the same price as the 100% gas mix. In turn, you are burning through 3 more full tanks of gas for every 100 fillups. That is 3 full tanks of wasted money by us and we haven't made a single dent in the amount of oil we buy from achmed because of the extra tanks of gas it takes to come out even.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:17 PM   #17
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

No matter how many tanks of gas you burn, you still used about 7% less "gasoline". It may not have saved you any money, but that means we had to purchase less oil from the towel heads.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:24 PM   #18
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

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No matter how many tanks of gas you burn, you still used about 7% less "gasoline". It may not have saved you any money, but that means we had to purchase less oil from the towel heads.
That's all fine and dandy, but I have close to 30 trucks on the road now with an avg mpg of 18 on the highway. It might not add up to much for one person with one car, but when my gas bill spikes 5g one month it takes a toll on my profit. Which in turn takes a toll on my bonus. Which in turn takes a toll on my modding. So basically, the less mpg my trucks get the less modding I can do to my car. I'm worried about a 2-3% drop in mpg over the course of a month.

I'm also curious to watch what my maintenace costs rise to with an increase of corrosive material in the gasoline. Ethanol is known to break down seals over extended periods of use in engines not used to it. So my trucks that are knocking on 150k will probably see more maintenance costs due to the increase in ethanol consumption.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:26 PM   #19
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

So even though everyone has to buy more tanks of 90% gas to do the same thing they used to do on tanks of 100% gas...we're coming out ahead? Okie dokie.

On a small scale, I can agree with you. However, when you bring it up to the national level, and the millions of extra tanks of gas that are required due to lower fuel economy....it's another story.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:28 PM   #20
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

Buy overpriced oil from towelheads or hurt poverty-stricken families trying to make ends meet and can't afford healthy groceries? Hell, possibly even put family owned farms out of business who can't afford to keep up with the ethanol pumping corporate farms. They all seem pretty un-American to me!
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Old 07-16-2008, 04:25 PM   #21
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

Idk.. I am getting the same or better fuel miles running E10 mix. by grandpas new f150 runs e85 and at $3.17 a gal and getting the same as if he used a e10 mix (all fuel stations here run a mix) Welcome to the Biofuels Indiana Website and the price for food and E-xx will go up due to most of Indiana and other midwest states crops were under water and will have less corn and beans....
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Old 07-16-2008, 04:47 PM   #22
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

Most Americans are clueless idiots that all they want is a big tv, nice couch and a decent paycheck then they don't care what our government does with our tax money.

Oh yea and leave our guns alone!

If we want to make ourselves energy dependent we should replace all of our oil/gas power plants with Nuclear Power Plants and Solar/Water/Wind where it is possible to get enough power to be worth it.

Then we can worry about the gas we put into our car. It also goes back to what I have said before, when your entire countries infrastructure is breaking down because we can't afford to keep it maintained (bridges, levees, lack of interstates in exploding cities resulting in travel time skyrocketing (see Corridor 7 for example) because we are too busy creating more problems overseas which in return makes the price of oil that we rely so heavily on skyrocket.

It's not rocket science. All it takes is for people in this country to stop being lazy, vote, sign up for a campaign you believe, donate money to causes you believe in.... there are so many things you can do. I set aside some money ever month to donate to candidates and causes such as the FairTax initiative. I also find candidates that aren't even in my district that I can't even vote for and donate to them if they are running for things I believe in. The House and Senate make choices for all over us as a country, so I like to have at least a little input on various campaigns in this country for those spots.

I believe we could solve a lot more problems if we had a big push toward term limits in the House and Senate. That would completely kill the career politician. No longer would Ted Kennedy's, John Kerry's and Robert Byrds be able to screw up this country for 40 years. It'd put pressure on every candidate to make the most out of their 2 terms if they wish to have a chance to advance to a higher power in the government.
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Old 07-16-2008, 05:03 PM   #23
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

unfortunately, consumers are the passive decision makers of how our economy turns up.

there is no reasoning or logic behind it. just the intent of consumption.
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Old 07-16-2008, 07:24 PM   #24
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Re: More fuel/energy/ethanol/electricity discussion

I will be throwing this out there but what about fuels that do much more than power our cars? lol

Americans are idiots, amazing how we will pay taxes for universal health care to an already industry leading health system, but we won't pass budgets for our children's edumacation or hire radical, unexperienced professors.

I personally think a lot of Americans are willing to convert to Ethanol because they believe it's cleaner then burning petroleum since ethanol is renewable from corn, or other sugars. However both produce carbon emissions that are oh so terrible to the environment, which they are, but since the United States has dropped from first place the world will allow other developing countries to pollute and point the finger at us.

I will stay off my soapbox for Nuclear Power for national power. As for power for vehicles I suggest hydrogen. Both hydrogen and oxygen can be easily obtained from water and both can be used in fuels. Hydrogen can now be safely stored in tanks and little modification to current vehicles is necessary for them to run on hydrogen, or even a hydrogen/gasoline mixture. Plus the only emission is water which can always be reused. It is also physically possible to set up your own fuel station at home.
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