Bar Stool Economics - Mustang Evolution

Go Back   Mustang Evolution > Off Topic Forums > The Bar



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them here!
Old 10-30-2008, 08:22 AM   #1
Registered Member
Regular
 
at7311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Region: Alabama
Posts: 221
Send a message via AIM to at7311
Bar Stool Economics

An email that was sent to me.



I've heard this analogy explained before, but this is the first time that I've seen a good, clear written explanation.



Bar Stool Economics by David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten
comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go
something like this:



The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.



So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day
and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw
them a curve. ‘Since you are all such good customers, he said, ‘I’m going to
reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just
$80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the
first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what
about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the
$20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’ They realized that
$20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s
share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to
drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce
each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the
amounts each should pay.

And so:



The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).



Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to
drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare
their savings.



‘I only got a dollar out of the $20,’declared the sixth man. He pointed to
the tenth man,’ but he got $10!’



‘Yeah, that’s right,’ exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a dollar, too.
It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!’



‘That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get $10 back when I
got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’



‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get
anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’



The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.



The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down
and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they
discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of
them for even half of the bill!



And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax
system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from
a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they
just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas
where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.



For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
__________________
at7311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-30-2008, 09:14 AM   #2
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

That certainly puts it out there plain and simple...and those that don't get it will just have to wait and see it occur in real life.
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 09:20 AM   #3
Registered Member
Regular
 
at7311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Region: Alabama
Posts: 221
Send a message via AIM to at7311
Re: Bar Stool Economics

you ain't kidding.
__________________
at7311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-30-2008, 10:24 AM   #4
Legacy Member
Legacy
 
wiarumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Region: Maryland
Posts: 1,738
Send a message via AIM to wiarumas Send a message via MSN to wiarumas
Re: Bar Stool Economics

thats a terrible example of macroeconomics. its overly simple and tries really hard to provide a misguided point.

first of all, what are the 10 beers representing? income? a commodity? benefits? tax breaks? it makes absolutely no sense. why are all 10 men from different tax brackets all recieving 1 beer? and who are the 10 people? 9 are small businesses and 1 is big business? are 9 middle class and 1 is a business owner? its a really flawed example in many ways. if it wanted a more accurate example (that is still very off), the beer could have represented a grouping of realty, personalty, and other benefits such as insurances. then, of course, you would have to make the amount of beer more realistic. we dont live in a socialist country - the poor would recieve a half a shot of beer and the rich man would recieve a 30 case. this would be fixated and relative to their supposed income that the example does not provide. then of course, you would have to re-adjust everything. then you would have to fix the prices of the beer to better reflect the the amount purchased.

also, are they buying this beer to consume it? so its a consumable - not benefits, tax benefits, or realty/personalty? would it make more sense for an individual to treat it like money and be able to resell it? that would mean that the rich guy could drink a beer or two, go outside and sell the rest of it for even more money. the poor guys could do the same - increasing their assets. then of course, if the rich guy consumed more beer than reselling it, the others could someday match their income by investing it wisely. the more money and beer they have, the more they could sell, which would result in the more beer they could buy. a better example would be that this beer is essential for their living but only a certain amount of it. that would mean that the poor would have to consume all their beer in order to stay alive while the rich guy could consume some of his beer and have excess beer.

another point is the 10th man would never leave the country. we are outsourcing JOBS not businesses. most outsourcing companies are still here in america. companies are taking the competitve advantage of labor costs in other countries, not their tax benefits. even if they DID move billions and billions of dollars of assets out of the bar (which would be stupid because the 10th guy would probably go bankrupt in the process), but another guy would buy up his assets and replace him (we have a free enterprise). an example of this would be if comcast got angry about our government and moved to europe. do you think the government and population would sit around and cry and miss them. hell no, another company (cox?) would gobble up their assets and customers in a heartbeat and comcast would go to europe and struggle with a new market and start up costs.

lastly, if the bar wants to stay in business, it has to ensure that both the rich and the poor are capable of footing the bill - not just one. right now, america is struggling because many are not able to afford the bill... and its NOT the rich that are struggling.

and that article was NOT written by an economics professor. its been circulating for a while and it was an article in a newspaper by an unknown submitter.

here is a real economical genius... i would trust this over a chain letter anyday.

Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary

PS: I'm not claiming to be an economics master or anything, I just have a pretty sturdy education in it when persuing business/entrepreneurship courses for my minors. I'd love to debate it more actually.
__________________

Please visit: TheEchoBoom: Gen Y Blog and Forum
wiarumas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 10:38 AM   #5
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

You are waaaaaay over analyzing this example. The beers have nothing to do with it....it is an example set in a bar, so they are drinking beer.

The important part of the example is the $100 bar tab. This bar tab represents the "bar tab" us working folks of the country pays each year. They are using $100 in the example because it makes for easy math.

The point is, people in this country ***** because they don't get to save as much as the rich guys. While, they might get a 33% break, they think they deserve more because 33% of their $3 tab is only $1. While, the rich guy only gets a 16% break, so in effect, they only get 1/2 of the break...he gets to save $10.

The uneducated koolaid drinkers think that just because the rich guy gets to save more money then they do, then they should also get to save that much. Then those that are just a suck on the system mooching off everyone else also thinks they should get more for their mooching. They don't sit there and realize that the rich guy is saving more because 10% of a billion is a ton more than 10% of 10,000. They are too stupid to realize this...and they just listen to the talking heads telling them tehy are getting screwed. When, in fact, if you break down the tax cuts, it's the rich guy getting screwed because he is only recieving a 16% break while the little guy is receiving a 33% break.
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 10:56 AM   #6
Registered Member
Regular
 
at7311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Region: Alabama
Posts: 221
Send a message via AIM to at7311
Re: Bar Stool Economics

well said.
__________________
at7311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 10:57 AM   #7
Legacy Member
Legacy
 
wiarumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Region: Maryland
Posts: 1,738
Send a message via AIM to wiarumas Send a message via MSN to wiarumas
Re: Bar Stool Economics

but if all the billionaires taxes increased 1% (which is still far less a tax bracket than majority of the population), it would benefit society so much more. im not saying it should go into the welfare of the poor, but you are talking about millions and millions of dollars that would help society rather than sit in a bank or some sort of tied up asset. the fact is, the trickle down effect is not working. the super rich are only getting richer, our society is becoming more expensive, and we as a nation are not experiencing enough growth.
__________________

Please visit: TheEchoBoom: Gen Y Blog and Forum
wiarumas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 11:03 AM   #8
Registered Member
Regular
 
1234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Region: Missouri
Posts: 1,292
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Well said, and very much true.
__________________
03 GT Charcoal Silver Metallic - Stolen
1234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 11:08 AM   #9
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

So then, the super rich should receive even less of a tax break so that money could be better used elsewhere...or so public programs could receive more money. That's a great idea as long as you tell the lazy people of this country to get off their *** and get a job or starve.

The down side with jacking with the rich is, they like being rich. They do not want to see their value go down. So, if they provide a service or a product, they will make adjustments to account for their lost monies which will inturn trickle down real quick to the little guy.

I agree the trickle down does not seem to happen fast enough. I also believe that the sludge at the bottom of the system serves as a major barrier to any system working. They get all this money for nothing....and their chicks for free.

Hell, my dad is retired and gets a social security check every month. Each year, he gets a raise....typically $50-60. However, as part of that raise every year, medicare then increases the amount they take by $40-50.

Now, these losers milking the system, they get raises too. They pop out kids like a pez dispenser and keep getting more money. Yet, I don't see their raises being wiped out by deductions. Not to mention the "Earned Income Credit" garbage. I did taxes for a chick this past year and she received $4000 in "Earned Income Credit". Now, what exactly did she do to "Earn" this additional 4k? She works the same place my mother does and works another job part time. She made 5k more than my mother did last year. Yet, my mother ends up owing money and this chick gets a bonus check. WTF?

So, I agree that the system is broken, however people need to stop *****ing about the rich saving more than them because the rich are not getting anywhere near the % break that they "not so rich" are getting. The worthless sludge in this country also needs to stop *****ing about the rich and get off their asses and get a job and see what it is like to even pay taxes in the first place.
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 11:16 AM   #10
Legacy Member
Legacy
 
wiarumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Region: Maryland
Posts: 1,738
Send a message via AIM to wiarumas Send a message via MSN to wiarumas
Re: Bar Stool Economics

ok, now we are on the same page.

im not for bailing out poor and i hate how people take advantage of the system. but taking a teacher's paycheck and cutting off a large insignificant portion of it is not helping our society. if you tax the consumer's too much, people don't shop. if people don't shop, stocks go down, real estate isnt purchased, people don't invest, people don't save in banks, etc, the rich suffer. im not entirely sure how much a teacher makes... but just for this example lets say they make 35k/year. that means they bring home a bit less than 3k a month before taxes. that means that after taxes they are probably only bringing home only a grand every 2 weeks - and almost a THIRD of that is going to taxes. so schools, the war, politicians paychecks, etc... i dont even care what it goes to... is like a bunch of poor people throwing pennies in a big pot. would it make more sense to tax the poor just a little bit less to spark the economy and have the super rich throw in a small, yet very significant portion of their unneeded, almost disgustingly excessive funds?

its funny because we make fun of these uneducated losers living off of welfare and child support but in actuality, the joke is on us. we, as the middle class are paying for their lazy asses and the well being of the super rich. they are probably not as dumb as they seem - they know that popping out babies is more profitable than working 2 jobs at the 7 eleven and nearby fast food restaurant.
__________________

Please visit: TheEchoBoom: Gen Y Blog and Forum
wiarumas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 11:25 AM   #11
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Well, I don't think the joke is on us as we don't have the option. If you asked everyone paying taxes where they would like their money to be appropriated to, I'm sure less than 5% would say "Please give my tax money to those that are too lazy to work".

We are forced to pay for them, and they just live off the system.

Now, ditch the income tax and implement the national sales tax idea and then everyone will be paying the same rate. The rich, the under world, the lame-o's milking the system, the illegals, the tourists...we would all be paying the same rate. The rich would just be paying more because their houses, toys, food, parties, etc cost way more than our houses and toys and etc.
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 11:31 AM   #12
Registered User
Regular
 
Brent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Region: Tennessee
Posts: 11,873
Re: Bar Stool Economics

I'm for a national sales tax but I'd rather see a flat tax. 15% across the board. I pay 15% and Warren Buffet pays 15%.

No loop holes. Nothing. 15%

I make 40k a year. 15% of 40,000 is 6000. Warren Buffet makes Billions a year. Let's just take 1 billion as an example. That's $150,000,000.

A national sales tax is too up and down. I could live with either though.

IF! Obama does everything he mentioned in his 30 minute commercial, this country will be better off in 4 years than it is today or has ever been over the last 8.

We can judge him on that in 2012 though. I have more faith in his economic plan than McCain's. A 3% tax hike is not going to send businesses scrambling for the Netherlands. It's not socialism. Redistribution of wealth has been going on in this country for decades. Just because Obama wants to tax the rich more and the rest less doesn't make it suddenly socialism.

McCain want's to cut everyone's taxes more and keep increasing our budget.

His whole plan for balancing a budget relies on 'growing the economy' which is hard to do when you have to keep borrowing from your enemies and increasing your debt.

McCain has a serious problem. The republicans have a serious problem. It's communicating with the American people a clear and precise plan. Something that Obama was able to do and that's why he will win.

McCain and the GOP are too worried about Bill Ayers and mudslinging.
__________________

Reddit
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 11:41 AM   #13
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

A flat 15% tax will cut our tax funds available. Granted, I'm all for a flat 15% since I currently lose 35% every check as it is. I could certainly use that extra couple hundred every check.
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 11:44 AM   #14
Registered User
Regular
 
Brent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Region: Tennessee
Posts: 11,873
Re: Bar Stool Economics

It wouldn't cut them. There would be no loopholes for people like Warren Buffet to get around paying taxes. Filing your taxes would be as easy as sending in a form the size of a post card.

Richard Shelby of Alabama has legislation in Congress right now for a flat tax but no one is looking at it. Republicans had 8 ****ing years to do something with our tax code but all they did was shift a few numbers here and shift a few number there. Now we got 8 more years of Obama (more than likely) where a flat tax will never see the light of day as well.

S. 1040: Tax Simplification Act of 2007 (GovTrack.us)
__________________

Reddit
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 11:51 AM   #15
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Just ran the numbers to see what my exact numbers were:

Lasers 180.19 7.999946723% (State Retirement, I no longer pay into Social Security)
Fed 357.43 15.86892146%
Medicare 32.66 1.450015317%
State 79.99 3.5513388%
Net 71.1297777%


So yeah, that's almost 29% I pay out every check...subtract retirement and that is 21% I pay out. I'd love a flat 15%...I could use that extra 6%, or $312, every check...
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 11:55 AM   #16
Legacy Member
Legacy
 
wiarumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Region: Maryland
Posts: 1,738
Send a message via AIM to wiarumas Send a message via MSN to wiarumas
Re: Bar Stool Economics

im for 15% across the board as well.

i will single handedly bring the country out of recession if that ever happens haha jk. on a more serious note, if they did lower taxes by that much on a lot of us, can you imagine how almost instantly this country will snap back into place? thats hundreds of dollars in the hands of millions.

it would literally save christmas. generations in years to come would watch the cspan reruns.
__________________

Please visit: TheEchoBoom: Gen Y Blog and Forum
wiarumas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 11:57 AM   #17
Registered User
Regular
 
Brent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Region: Tennessee
Posts: 11,873
Re: Bar Stool Economics

^ haha yea. This is going to be an interesting 4 years though. I'll pay less taxes under Obama and I'm interested to see if he can balance the budget and by how much he reduces our expenses each year.

Then we can see if his message holds any water.
__________________

Reddit
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 11:58 AM   #18
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Dude, that's 600 a month on my low salary....take out retirement and let me manage that myself and it is around 1400 a month extra money in my pocket. I'm not good with money when it is just buring a hole in my pocket so I know damn well I would be doing my fair share to boost the economy as well as the lifestyles of a lot of single moms.
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 01:12 PM   #19
Registered Member
Regular
 
at7311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Region: Alabama
Posts: 221
Send a message via AIM to at7311
Re: Bar Stool Economics

I'll go with the flat tax. No one could ***** and claim "that's not fair" syndrome.
__________________
at7311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 01:30 PM   #20
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

They still will because the rich will be paying the same as them and they will feel like the rich should be paying more....you know, just like they complain about now.
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2008, 01:46 PM   #21
Registered Member
Regular
 
at7311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Region: Alabama
Posts: 221
Send a message via AIM to at7311
Re: Bar Stool Economics

And I'd say, Get off your lazy keister and bust your *** like I do and maybe you'll have more money to play with. It may be a tough road but it can be done.
__________________
at7311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2008, 07:12 PM   #22
Registered Member
Regular
 
OsirisGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York
Region: New York
Posts: 1,262
Send a message via AIM to OsirisGuy
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Instead of reading and contributing I'm just going to add fuel to the fire:

The U.S. has a poverty rate of 12% (est 2004) (Source: World CIA Factbook) and even if we can say that the U.S.'s richest is another 12%, although it is probably closer to 3%, that leaves 76% of the U.S. population in the Middle Class. It is far more efficient to tax the middle class then increase taxes for the rich. The price the middle class pays on taxes is the most and increasing those for the rich will not do much. Then you have this great idea of "redistribution of wealth" *cough*socialism*cough*.

The U.S. capitalist economy has hit a breaking point and changes have to be made, although socialism is NOT the answer.

As for the analogy of "redistribution of wealth" I heard a good one the other day.

A daughter comes home from school telling her daddy that they had a political debate at school and then had to choose which candidate to vote for. The dad goes on to explain what Obama wants to do.

He says "Okay so in a few days you will go out trick or treating, right?". "Yeah" the little girl responds. "Well now let's say you come home with all this candy after you went out, and the boy across the street didn't feel like going out, and under redistribution cam over and took half of your candy for himself. Would that be fair?" "No" the girl responds a bit unhappily. The father continues "Now let's say you come home and the girl next door was sick and couldn't go out. So she comes over and you decide to share your candy with her, do you think that's fair?" "Well, yeah" the girl answers.

That folks is what Obama is going to do. He is going to take half of your Halloween Candy and give other people cavities.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetallicMist View Post
OsirisGuy is correct
Quote:
Originally Posted by stangaroo View Post
OsirisGuy is right
2002 Mustang GT

BBK CAI - Flowmaster Catbacks - Pro 5.0 Shifter
OsirisGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2008, 07:20 PM   #23
Registered User
Regular
 
Brent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Region: Tennessee
Posts: 11,873
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Except that NOWHERE in Obama's tax plan does he advocate giving money to people who are not taxed, anymore than the current George Bush tax plan already does.

Raising the taxes from 36% to 39% on the top earners in this country is NOT socialism. Please look up the definition of the word socialism and explain to me how cutting taxes for the middle class and raising them on the wealthiest fits into it. The government is not taking over your land.

It's not anymore socialist than George Bush allowing the government to buy shares of privately owned companies.

Just because McCain and Palin call it socialism, does not make it socialism. Just because Obama is a Democrat does not make him evil.

I myself look forward to seeing what Obama does. I believe we will be better off 4 years from now if Obama takes over than McCain. Not as better off as we could be if the right people were in office but better off regardless. We will be done with Iraq and at the very least we will be spending that money at home. Whether you agree with the way Obama want's to spend it... it will be spent here and not on some Iraqi that doesn't pay a damn cent in taxes and who's government has a 76 billion dollar surplus.
__________________

Reddit
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2008, 07:36 PM   #24
Registered Member
Regular
 
OsirisGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York
Region: New York
Posts: 1,262
Send a message via AIM to OsirisGuy
Re: Bar Stool Economics

My bad, I should have pointed out, I didn't read all of the posts and went off on my own tangent.

My whole analogy only referred to his idea of "redistribution of wealth" Not who he taxes, but where the tax money is going.

For the changes in taxes, will Obama really change these rates? Like I said before, there is a lot more money taxing the middle class then the rich. A 3% increase on taxes for the nations top earners? Who constitutes as a top earner? The true top earners only make up a few percent of the U.S. population.

If top earners refers to those who make $250,000 or more then there will be a lot of people very upset because I think you will find that a lot more of the population will fall into that category which now become the rich elite and upper middle class. Those upper middle class, who own small business and work very hard for their cash now have to give more of it up so someone gets a few cents more in their welfare check (and I'm only talking about the ones who exploit the system). That's anti-capitalism. Capitalism should be where private companies can compete with each other and the government can form contracts with them. This competition allows products and technologies to be cutting edge and inexpensive, ever evolving for the better. Instead there are these monopolies which are controlling the system, and now we have these bailouts? Ridiculous.

Taxing those who make money will only make more people into criminals, they will now commit tax fraud and be convicted of tax evasion.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetallicMist View Post
OsirisGuy is correct
Quote:
Originally Posted by stangaroo View Post
OsirisGuy is right
2002 Mustang GT

BBK CAI - Flowmaster Catbacks - Pro 5.0 Shifter
OsirisGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2008, 07:47 PM   #25
Registered User
Regular
 
Brent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Region: Tennessee
Posts: 11,873
Re: Bar Stool Economics

I still disagree. We wouldn't have to even resort to raising taxes on anyone if we didn't have a 10 trillion dollar debt. Which is 90% Republican's fault over the history. Ronald Reagan increased the debt from 700 billion to 3 trillion in 8 years. George Bush increased the debt from around 4 trillion to 10 trillion in 8 years.

Anyway you shape it, people who run up deficits and increase our debts are the ones responsible for the tax hikes. People like John McCain who's whole policy is to ignore the debt and cut taxes for everyone do not do anything to further decrease our reliance on foreign money to keep this country afloat.

Raising the taxes on 250,000+ is not going to have anymore of an ill impact on the economy than John McCain slashing taxes for everyone, keeping us in Iraq and doing borrowing more money from China and other foreign companies to keep his tax cut and spend policy afloat.
__________________

Reddit
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2008, 08:23 PM   #26
Legacy Member
Legacy
 
bbunt302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Region: Texas
Posts: 2,459
Send a message via AIM to bbunt302
Re: Bar Stool Economics

America is a brand of a socialist state and has been since the 16th Amendment. Not all socialists believe in complete nationalization. Most socialists believe that capitalism is tolerable as long as the government is the dominant force in the economy. That is EXACTLY what America has been ever since the federal income tax and Federal Reserve were established in 1913. McCain is a socialist and so is Obama. How anyone who voted for the bailout can claim to be anything but a socialist is beyond me.

The fact is the federal income tax is not only against everything the founding fathers tried to establish in the Constitution... It is downright immoral. We are slaves to the government. At any moment, the 16th Amendment gives Congress the right to take whatever portion of your income they decide. The government simply "allows" us to keep whatever amount they decide we deserve.

What we are finding out again (as if the 1930s weren't enough) is that a quasi-socialist/capitalist state cannot succeed. Now it is up to us to decide if we want to go one way or the other. Unfortunately, it seems like we are headed for a sharp left hand turn.
__________________

Scary stuff.
bbunt302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2008, 09:03 PM   #27
Registered User
Regular
 
Brent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Region: Tennessee
Posts: 11,873
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbunt302 View Post
America is a brand of a socialist state and has been since the 16th Amendment. Not all socialists believe in complete nationalization. Most socialists believe that capitalism is tolerable as long as the government is the dominant force in the economy. That is EXACTLY what America has been ever since the federal income tax and Federal Reserve were established in 1913. McCain is a socialist and so is Obama. How anyone who voted for the bailout can claim to be anything but a socialist is beyond me.

The fact is the federal income tax is not only against everything the founding fathers tried to establish in the Constitution... It is downright immoral. We are slaves to the government. At any moment, the 16th Amendment gives Congress the right to take whatever portion of your income they decide. The government simply "allows" us to keep whatever amount they decide we deserve.

What we are finding out again (as if the 1930s weren't enough) is that a quasi-socialist/capitalist state cannot succeed. Now it is up to us to decide if we want to go one way or the other. Unfortunately, it seems like we are headed for a sharp left hand turn.
__________________

Reddit
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2008, 11:42 PM   #28
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent View Post
Raising the taxes on 250,000+ is not going to have anymore of an ill impact on the economy than John McCain slashing taxes for everyone, keeping us in Iraq and doing borrowing more money from China and other foreign companies to keep his tax cut and spend policy afloat.
Y'all need to catch up...it is no longer 250k...it was lowered to 150k earlier this week...and just recently it has been revealed that is is now 125k....

At this rate, it should eventually reach the 75k mark...and I'm sure lower. Of course, this is household income...so that upper class is starting to grow and grow.
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2008, 11:44 PM   #29
Registered User
Regular
 
Brent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Region: Tennessee
Posts: 11,873
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Who says it was lowered to 150k.
__________________

Reddit
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2008, 11:49 PM   #30
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Biden lowered it down to 150k earlier this week in a speach....and now New Mexico Gov slipped up discussing Osama's 120k middle class.

How Low Can It Go? Richardson Pegs Middle Class as Those Making Under $120,000 - FOXNews.com Elections

Quote:
Joe Biden caused headaches for the campaign Monday when he told a Scranton, Pa., TV station that Obama's tax break "should go to middle class people -- people making under $150,000 a year."
Quote:
"What Obama wants to do is he is basically looking at $120,000 and under among those that are in the middle class, and there is a tax cut for those," Richardson said in the interview, according to a clip posted on YouTube.
Slowly but surely it will get down to the point that if you work, you will pay more in taxes...and if you're married, you're really going to be ****ed if you have a double income house....you'll leave the "Middle Class" rating much quicker that way.
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2008, 11:53 PM   #31
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Hell, even his own freaking campaign is working on their backpeddling plan for after he's elected to let everyone know that he can't do everything he said he was going to do.

Obama Lays Plans to Kill Expectations After Election Victory - FOXNews.com Elections

Quote:
Barack Obama's senior advisers have drawn up plans to lower expectations for his presidency if he wins next week's election, amid concerns that many of his euphoric supporters are harboring unrealistic hopes of what he can achieve.
The man's a pile of ****...
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2008, 12:10 AM   #32
Registered User
Regular
 
Brent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Region: Tennessee
Posts: 11,873
Re: Bar Stool Economics

lmao. We will see. If CNN has a bias towards Obama then Foxnews is licking on McCains nuts. We will see what happens.

No where in there though did it talk about lowering the income level for raising taxes.
__________________

Reddit
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2008, 12:15 AM   #33
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Um, his whole plan is to raise taxes on those above the middle class...and to give breaks to those below that max amount...well, that max amount keeps going down as time goes on....

I don't think Fox licks mccains nuts as much as the commie network does Obama or especially MSNBC does obama....it's just Fox tends to report on more stuff that the others refuse to....kind of like not reporting the details of the dinner with Mr. PLO man.

But, it doesn't matter what I think in all this, most don't agree with me anyhow. Hopefully Osama's big rock concert victory celebration in Michigan goes off without a hitch...I'm just going to make sure I don't get married in the next 4 years so I don't lose my tax break...of course, that assumes the middle class line doesn't fall any further than 120k.
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2008, 12:27 AM   #34
Registered User
Regular
 
Brent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Region: Tennessee
Posts: 11,873
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureVenom View Post
Um, his whole plan is to raise taxes on those above the middle class...and to give breaks to those below that max amount...well, that max amount keeps going down as time goes on....
Where have you heard that this keeps going down? His campaign says 250k, his official tax plan says 250k.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes...Plan_FINAL.pdf

Quote:
Middle class families will see their taxes cut – and no family making less than $250,000 will see their taxes increase.
Now a single person PROBABLY has that lowered and that's probably what you are talking about.

Quote:
I don't think Fox licks mccains nuts as much as the commie network does Obama or especially MSNBC does obama....it's just Fox tends to report on more stuff that the others refuse to....kind of like not reporting the details of the dinner with Mr. PLO man.
Foxnews comes right out and says '**** Obama, Vote Republican' in about every single political news story they can muster it into. At least CNN attempts at bringing in other views. Foxnews consists of what? 3 Democrats on their entire programming?

Quote:
But, it doesn't matter what I think in all this, most don't agree with me anyhow. Hopefully Obama's big rock concert victory celebration in Michigan goes off without a hitch...I'm just going to make sure I don't get married in the next 4 years so I don't lose my tax break...of course, that assumes the middle class line doesn't fall any further than 120k.
I'd rather see taxes raised 3% on people 250k than up than see McCain cut them for everyone and our debt continue to rise. Someone has to own up to the fact that we can't ignore out debt. Sadly the Democrats are the ones that are doing it and the Republicans are just spitting out their same old bull**** about patriotism and mudslinging around Obama's ties with a few radicals. Like McCain and Republicans aren't in bed with religious nuts too.
__________________

Reddit
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2008, 10:54 AM   #35
15.3 Second V8 Killer Yo
Legacy
Regular
 
PureVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Region: Louisiana
Posts: 7,212
Send a message via AIM to PureVenom Send a message via MSN to PureVenom Send a message via Yahoo to PureVenom
Re: Bar Stool Economics

Um, biden said 150k himself...monday. 150k is a lot different than 250k.
__________________
"When I know more, I'll be forthcoming. Or I won't be forthcoming, and I'll be honestly deceptive." - Les Miles
PureVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Mustang Evolution > Off Topic Forums > The Bar

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


» Like Us On Facebook



08:37 AM


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0

MustangEvolution.com is in no way associated with or endorsed by Ford Motor Company.