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Old 08-25-2004, 01:49 PM   #106
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See, I don't know how you can have both God and science and both of them be actually right. God says 10,000 years old for the Earth. We can prove 4.6 billion years... God says he made us, science can ''prove'' using genetics we came from apes. True, we don't have the ''missing link''. But how could we? Fossilized remains are hard enough to find, then you have to consider having the right conditions. Anyone know how wet it was in AFRICA?... when the dinosaurs were there, plenty... when man was there, not so much. That's when the desert started. Desert = little water. it takes water and mud to form a fossil. That's why it's very hard to find one, plus, fossils take a damn long time to form. Science can track back just how they moved through the world...
(might I add SWEET, I just got a challenge to drag race a kid... he's a 1985 v-8 El Camino... he SAYS he's making 325 horsepower... but it's for after I supercharge/turbocharge my car, and the winner gets $50... he says he has a 355 c.i. v-8.... is this a good idea?)
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Old 08-25-2004, 01:50 PM   #107
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you mean kill the immigrants?... no, don't believe so
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Old 08-25-2004, 01:53 PM   #108
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I'm aware there are people that will be at arms about that... but think of the cost of saving money if you don't have to pay for someone to be alive for 50 years. And I know that most of those savings go to execute them, but hey, less crowed prisons
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Old 08-25-2004, 02:22 PM   #109
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God gave no age for the earth. Some people think they can determine an age based on what humans wrote in the bible. They are apparently incorrect in thier assumption.

Some people foolishly think God's "day" equals one of ours, or year, or decade, or century or yadda yadda.

The truth about science is this, the more we learn the more we realize how much we do not know.

As for DNA, whatever, I don't want to get too involved in it but all life on earth shares a large portion of thier DNA coding and the closer you are in species the more DNA you share. In other words a Chimp share more of it's DNA coding with us than say a snake. What does this mean? It could mean God didn't reinvent the wheel for each species.

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Old 08-25-2004, 02:30 PM   #110
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it's 98% for the chimp and ourselves. And true, it COULD mean that. However, you also have to remember, science says we all came from one cell... therefore, doesn't it make sense our DNA would match quite closely? Surely ''life'' can't have THAT many totally different formulas, which is why we haven't found life anywhere else yet in part... the other part is that we're in the PERFECT location in our solar system, which is in the perfect place in our galaxy, and we're at the perfect place in time for life. It's not too hot here, it's not too turbulent with other stars close by, and we don't have lots of space debris flying down on us, yet we still have a usable sun. See, perfection. It'll be ''perfect'' for like 2 billion more years. The sun dies out in about 4.6, which is odd, 4.6 billion years old for our planet, and that's how long the sun has left as well. The sun is 7 billion years old I do believe... and our solar system planets started as orbiting dust, and then formed into planets as it went around. That's why the orbits of the planets lie so closely together in a plane... any difference can be accounted for with large collisions.
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Old 08-25-2004, 04:11 PM   #111
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The perfect place?

Science has found lots of life in place they thought couldn't exist. Thermal vents at the bottom of the sea ring a bell?

As I said, we know about 1%, being generous, of everything there is to know. So don't be making no absolute type claims.

Since no human was around to see how the solar system was created and there is no actual proof your theory is as valid as any, including the biblical one.

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Old 08-25-2004, 04:20 PM   #112
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the big bang theory...god spoke and bang it happended
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Old 08-25-2004, 05:09 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponycarman
The perfect place?

Science has found lots of life in place they thought couldn't exist. Thermal vents at the bottom of the sea ring a bell?

As I said, we know about 1%, being generous, of everything there is to know. So don't be making no absolute type claims.

Since no human was around to see how the solar system was created and there is no actual proof your theory is as valid as any, including the biblical one.

Steve
the perfect place is earth numbnuts. the sea is on earth.... the sea is where life started, it only makes sense that advanced forms of life, i.e. those able to live without hardly anything, I think they use some sort of nitrogen in their blood instead of oxygen, would appear in the sea. Not only that, but more than 3/4 of the surface of the Earth is water, which makes more sense on why they'd be there. By perfect place, I mean the earth isn't 1000 degrees. We don't have another ''sun'' so close that it's tugging on our planet as well. We don't have such a high gravity that large life forms can't develop, and yet, we have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere. We're far enough from the sun that we don't bake (usually ), but bake as in 400 degrees, which is plenty hot to boil water, which we NEED. We're mostly water, so we kinda have to have it as a stable material in our bodies. The fact that we're mostly water isn't a mistake. Think about where we would've started, in the ocean. What's the ocean made of? Salt water... we've got ''salt'' water in us too. Just not as salty as the ocean. That's why salt is added to stuff like eye washes. That way it doesn't dry us out, and doesn't feel like much more than a slight discomfort. Compare our water content with that of ocean animals... might be kinda amazing for you to actually see how close we are.

As to your comment about me not having evidence for how old the solar system is, yeah, I do. First off, we know approximately how long it would take the Earth to cool off enough to have a solid crust from being completely magma, which is liquid rock, lava is magma on the surface of the earth, but since the entire earth was magma, I can call it that here. Ok, we know that the earth is ''cool'' down several kilometers. you have any idea how hot magma is? Then you figure in that there isn't anything really cooling the earth down. there's not really water at this point. just hydrogen and oxygen. It's a gas. It's in the atmosphere, it's so hot it can't rain. it evaporates into steam before it can even get to the earth. However, it falls further and further every time it does happen to form a drop of water. Eventually, it will hit the surface of the earth. Then, more and more of the drops will hit, and as the Earth cools down, more rain drops will fall. As more of them fall, it cools things down a bit more. However, that's just on the surface, not nearly as cool as we are now. There would be lava springs all over the place for billions of years. They would eventually cool down, and when they cool down, they form a cooler layer on top of the hotter stuff. The next lava would come out and form yet another cooler layer on the cooled layer and so on. That's how we cooled down. That's how we can tell we're 4.6 billion years old.... AND we have another thing, we went to the moon, which is well believed to be part of the earth, and we did some testing on the rocks we brought back, and I think what they actually tested was uranium? Uranium 245 I think, and it's quite stable, it has a half life of a couple billion years, and they can test and see how much of it has decayed and all that jazz... and since the earth was hit early in its developmental period, the rock that went to the moon would reflect about the right time period of the moon's creation. You don't get a moon without an earth. The Moon would cool MUCH more quickly because it doesn't have the strong gravity like earth. It's much smaller as well. Temperature cools off as a squared relation to distace, and volume is a cubed thing of a 1 dimensional line.... which is distance... just to give you an idea how things work. Anyway, the moon's rocks were dated to 4.5 billion years.... so figure we had an ''earth'' about 100,000,000 years old and then a BIG rock hit it, and BAM, a moon. Of course, you could also assume that the moon needed time to develop, so you could throw in there that maybe the earth was only 50,000,000 years old when the moon was formed and the moon took 50,000,000 years to harden, and thus, you have evidence...

p.s., don't you ever think I don't know my science.. and don't tell me not to make any absolute claims when it comes to science. I know my science.
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Old 08-25-2004, 05:31 PM   #114
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You don't know **** as evidenced by your posts here.

Scientists are predicting Europa could very well have life, based mostly on observed life here that not so long ago the scientists said no life could exist. Europa is no where near Earth. There is also a growing body of evidence life may have existed on Mars and may well still exist there.

Anyone who thinks there are absolutes in science is either a closedminded fool, or a fool. I can give you example after example of how scientists of the day stated an absolute only to be proven wrong. Hell even Stephen Hawking changed his mind on black holes just recently and his toenail clippings have a higher mental capacity than you. You let the observed facts form your theory, you don't parse your facts to fit your theories.

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Old 08-25-2004, 05:43 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponycarman
You don't know **** as evidenced by your posts here.

Scientists are predicting Europa could very well have life, based mostly on observed life here that not so long ago the scientists said no life could exist. Europa is no where near Earth. There is also a growing body of evidence life may have existed on Mars and may well still exist there.

Anyone who thinks there are absolutes in science is either a closedminded fool, or a fool. I can give you example after example of how scientists of the day stated an absolute only to be proven wrong. Hell even Stephen Hawking changed his mind on black holes just recently and his toenail clippings have a higher mental capacity than you. You let the observed facts form your theory, you don't parse your facts to fit your theories.

Steve
well said, nobody knows everything science is The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and THEORETICAL explanation of phenomena. (according to dictionary.com) one example is when they thought the earth was flat, SCIENCE said it was flat, well guess what science was wrong
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Old 08-25-2004, 06:07 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponycarman
You don't know **** as evidenced by your posts here.

Scientists are predicting Europa could very well have life, based mostly on observed life here that not so long ago the scientists said no life could exist. Europa is no where near Earth. There is also a growing body of evidence life may have existed on Mars and may well still exist there.

Anyone who thinks there are absolutes in science is either a closedminded fool, or a fool. I can give you example after example of how scientists of the day stated an absolute only to be proven wrong. Hell even Stephen Hawking changed his mind on black holes just recently and his toenail clippings have a higher mental capacity than you. You let the observed facts form your theory, you don't parse your facts to fit your theories.

Steve
I'm about sick and tired of you thinking you know everything. Europa is mostly water (dur) Mars was just like Earth, because they were right next to each other when both were being formed (dur) Mars would have the same original material (dur) Mars had water then, (dur) water based life? NO where have I seen that before (dur).... Good lord you are quite incompetant and quick to judge. You know why Europa may be also in ''the perfect place"? It's been heated by the planet it's orbiting... it's called tidal distortion. Where gravity pulls harder on the side closer to the planet, that's what causes tides in our ocean, the moon pulling as well as the sun, anyway, the tidal distortion has caused the center of Europa to be almost as warm as OUR OCEANS. So maybe you should take back a word or two of what you said. Life there has nearly the same conditions as it would here. Mars would've had similar life to Earth's as well if it could've held an atmosphere!
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Old 08-25-2004, 06:10 PM   #117
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well said, nobody knows everything science is The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and THEORETICAL explanation of phenomena. (according to dictionary.com) one example is when they thought the earth was flat, SCIENCE said it was flat, well guess what science was wrong
also incorrect... SCIENCE didn't say it was flat. Science proved it was round. People that conjecture aren't scientists, they don't experiment to prove themselves right, they just hypothesize and say "it's the truth"... thus, not science, some man without common sense... plus, science is allowed to make errors. Science never says this is always going to be true... they list circumstances, and they allow changes to be made.
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Old 08-25-2004, 06:18 PM   #118
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the perfect place is earth numbnuts. the sea is on earth.... the sea is where life started, it only makes sense that advanced forms of life, i.e. those able to live without hardly anything, I think they use some sort of nitrogen in their blood instead of oxygen, would appear in the sea. Not only that, but more than 3/4 of the surface of the Earth is water, which makes more sense on why they'd be there. By perfect place, I mean the earth isn't 1000 degrees. We don't have another ''sun'' so close that it's tugging on our planet as well. We don't have such a high gravity that large life forms can't develop, and yet, we have enough gravity to hold an atmosphere. We're far enough from the sun that we don't bake (usually ), but bake as in 400 degrees, which is plenty hot to boil water, which we NEED. We're mostly water, so we kinda have to have it as a stable material in our bodies. The fact that we're mostly water isn't a mistake. Think about where we would've started, in the ocean. What's the ocean made of? Salt water... we've got ''salt'' water in us too. Just not as salty as the ocean. That's why salt is added to stuff like eye washes. That way it doesn't dry us out, and doesn't feel like much more than a slight discomfort. Compare our water content with that of ocean animals... might be kinda amazing for you to actually see how close we are.

As to your comment about me not having evidence for how old the solar system is, yeah, I do. First off, we know approximately how long it would take the Earth to cool off enough to have a solid crust from being completely magma, which is liquid rock, lava is magma on the surface of the earth, but since the entire earth was magma, I can call it that here. Ok, we know that the earth is ''cool'' down several kilometers. you have any idea how hot magma is? Then you figure in that there isn't anything really cooling the earth down. there's not really water at this point. just hydrogen and oxygen. It's a gas. It's in the atmosphere, it's so hot it can't rain. it evaporates into steam before it can even get to the earth. However, it falls further and further every time it does happen to form a drop of water. Eventually, it will hit the surface of the earth. Then, more and more of the drops will hit, and as the Earth cools down, more rain drops will fall. As more of them fall, it cools things down a bit more. However, that's just on the surface, not nearly as cool as we are now. There would be lava springs all over the place for billions of years. They would eventually cool down, and when they cool down, they form a cooler layer on top of the hotter stuff. The next lava would come out and form yet another cooler layer on the cooled layer and so on. That's how we cooled down. That's how we can tell we're 4.6 billion years old.... AND we have another thing, we went to the moon, which is well believed to be part of the earth, and we did some testing on the rocks we brought back, and I think what they actually tested was uranium? Uranium 245 I think, and it's quite stable, it has a half life of a couple billion years, and they can test and see how much of it has decayed and all that jazz... and since the earth was hit early in its developmental period, the rock that went to the moon would reflect about the right time period of the moon's creation. You don't get a moon without an earth. The Moon would cool MUCH more quickly because it doesn't have the strong gravity like earth. It's much smaller as well. Temperature cools off as a squared relation to distace, and volume is a cubed thing of a 1 dimensional line.... which is distance... just to give you an idea how things work. Anyway, the moon's rocks were dated to 4.5 billion years.... so figure we had an ''earth'' about 100,000,000 years old and then a BIG rock hit it, and BAM, a moon. Of course, you could also assume that the moon needed time to develop, so you could throw in there that maybe the earth was only 50,000,000 years old when the moon was formed and the moon took 50,000,000 years to harden, and thus, you have evidence...

p.s., don't you ever think I don't know my science.. and don't tell me not to make any absolute claims when it comes to science. I know my science.
I just boldened a lot of the CRAP in your statment. And underlined some more stuff that was important. You say evidence. then use words like assume, figre, could throw in, etc, then follow these statements with exact years. What in the hell?

You are not going to impress me with your regurgitated "science" nor do I think you will impress any others here. At least any of the ones involved with this discussion. Jimmy, for billionth time, well, "throw in" a few more times, so say 1.93843 billionth time, THINK.
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Old 08-25-2004, 06:52 PM   #119
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do you know ANYTHING about science?... I gave you 4.6 BILLION years, you want me to sit down and write out, the Earth is 4,594,429,823.24254756343635753453 years old? It can't be done. With anything in nature, there are slight errors. 4.6 billion years is a lot longer than the estimated 10,000. I can't give you years for exactly when the molten earth was hit by a large object, as first off, that's just a widely accepted theory, and secondly, the moon would've also been molted at that time, and things as a liquid would have a slightly different half-life. "it only makes sense" would be drawning a logical conclusion. If you have a company that's been designing a certain product, say it's an underwater diving machine, and their goal is to go as deep into the ocean as possible. Wouldn't it make sense that they would get there before some other company that started at nearly the same point but many years later? Mathematically, that would be more likely. It would be different if the two had contact, but they don't. We would know this because one is a sea creature thousands of meters under the water, and the other lives on land, no contact. That's why we see things like that.

When I say "there's not really water" there wasn't.... hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water. That is maybe 5th grade science? When you heat things up VERY hot, they either change states from a liquid (water) to a gas (steam) or if they get hot enough, the bond between the two may be broken... this is why it wasn't really water. As the surface cools down however, these extreme temps would've allowed the hydrogen and oxygen to form water. As it cooled even further, the massive amount of steam in the air would've started condensing into rain drops, but as they fell, they would've been heated back up again as they approached the still molten surface. That means they could've gone back into steam.... as the surface continued to cool, they would've surely fallen further, as Newton's Law of Heating/Cooling states, the amount of the rate of change in heat is proportional to the difference between the two temps. so the larger the difference in temps, the quicker the rain would heat back up... but when the rain started to hit the surface, there's a thing called the ''heat/energy of vaporization'' which is an amount of energy it takes to simply transform water to steam, that's 2260 J/g, that's g as in gram.... as in about as much as a cube of sugar, By contrast, one horsepower is 746 Watts, which is in Joules per second. So it would take just over 3 horsepower to vaporize a gram of water every second. A kilogram of water vaporized every second would take 3000 horsepower. Now think how much water there is on Earth, THAT'S A LOT OF COOLING POWER, and look how long it actually took. That's just to get the damn stuff turned from water into steam. (it's EXACTLY the same amount of energy to go the other way)... now lava, being rock, and rock, which would be similar to a metal... considering it melts and flows like molten metal, would have a similar specific heat. The specific heat of a substance is the amount of energy it takes to lower or raise the heat of that object by 1 degree C. Metals are very low. usually in the 500-800 range... water on the other hand is 4480... that's why it's used in coolant system... it's very good at maintaining a fairly constant temp. Also why if you stick a spoon on your stove, it's hot VERY quickly, but if you had the same amount of water, it'd take a minute or so before it got nearly that hot. So as more and more water would fall, the molten rock would cool down more than it would boil off the water. Make more sense now?

When I said "uranium?" that's because it's been 2 years since I took the course that said what they tested it with, and I can go find it if you absolutely must know what element it was. I figured I would save some time and just post it... now that you're done bolding the ''crap'', maybe you realize it's not crap, just you can't understand science.
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Old 08-25-2004, 06:59 PM   #120
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http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html

here you go, read.... I just went looking to verify what I said... turns out it I said uranium 245, it's actually uranium 235... just got the wrong middle digit
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:12 PM   #121
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no replies? simply amazing
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:16 PM   #122
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im waiting for this thread to die i think its incredibly stupid for us to argue like this..speaking of off topic this definately fits the bill!
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:16 PM   #123
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also, it's important to realize, without scientific THEORY, your car never gets built... your house never stands, concrete never gets made, steel never gets made from iron... we would be without functional tools, so apparently, theoretical works. After all Ford based their entire company on the theory that your car won't explode when you start it.... *theory* not a proven law of nature... for one time it just MAY blow up. That's all it takes and a theory has to be trashed and rethought. ONE exception. So before you go bashing scientific theory, maybe you should look into it a little deeper
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:25 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
just got the wrong middle digit
No, you got the right middle digit.

I'll ask this one thing from you.

Show me any respectable source that says Mars and Earth were located where you state they were.

Hurry it up cause I'm old and ain't likely to live long enough for you to find that source.

Steve

PS:

when compared to you I do know everything.
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Holy crap he's right.
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:25 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner
also, it's important to realize, without scientific THEORY, your car never gets built... your house never stands, concrete never gets made, steel never gets made from iron... we would be without functional tools, so apparently, theoretical works. After all Ford based their entire company on the theory that your car won't explode when you start it.... *theory* not a proven law of nature... for one time it just MAY blow up. That's all it takes and a theory has to be trashed and rethought. ONE exception. So before you go bashing scientific theory, maybe you should look into it a little deeper
give it up man im sick of argueing and im sure others are too..
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:36 PM   #126
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Well now this was a poll about Political parties now it is about science

I think we can look at this thread and call it

DONE
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