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Old 09-21-2004, 11:39 AM   #1
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Thumbs down So what is this, flip flop number....

http://lonestarstangs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8631

Kerry Says He Wouldn't Have Ousted Saddam
By RON FOURNIER

NEW YORK (AP) - Staking out new ground on Iraq, Sen. John Kerry said Monday he would not have overthrown Saddam Hussein had he been in the White House, and he accused President Bush of ``stubborn incompetence,'' dishonesty and colossal failures of judgment. Bush said Kerry was flip-flopping.

Less than two years after voting to give Bush authority to invade Iraq, the Democratic candidate said the president had misused that power by rushing to war without the backing of allies, a post-war plan or proper equipment for U.S. troops. ``None of which I would have done,'' Kerry said.

``Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who deserves his own special place in hell,'' he added. ``But that was not, in itself, a reason to go to war. The satisfaction we take in his downfall does not hide this fact: We have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less secure.''

Bush responded in kind, interpreting the comment to mean that Kerry believes U.S. security would be better with Saddam still in power. ``He's saying he prefers the stability of a dictatorship to the hope and security of democracy,'' the Republican incumbent said.

``Today, my opponent continued his pattern of twisting in the wind,'' Bush said at a New Hampshire rally. ``He apparently woke up this morning and has now decided, No, we should not have invaded Iraq, after just last month saying he would have voted for force even knowing everything we know today.''

Kerry called on Bush to do a much better job rallying allies, training Iraqi security forces, hastening reconstruction plans and ensuring that elections are conducted on time. But his speech was thin on details, with Kerry saying Bush's miscalculations had made solutions harder to come by.

Bush cited Kerry's four-point plan and dismissed it as proposing ``exactly what we're currently doing.''

Both candidates addressed partisan crowds, drawing cheers and hoots as they stretched each other's records and rhetoric - mixing facts with political creativity toward the same goal: raising doubts about the other man's credibility.

With more than 1,000 U.S. troops killed in Iraq, including nearly 900 since Bush declared an end to major combat, with free elections in doubt, reconstruction efforts stalled and violence and kidnappings on the rise, Iraq could be Bush's biggest political liability. Even some Republican senators have begun to publicly second-guess the president's policies.

But Kerry has failed to capitalize thus far, struggling for months to find a clear, consistent way to differentiate his views from those of his Democratic rivals during the primary season and, since the spring, his general election foe in the White House.

Kerry's advisers say they're not sure whether it is too late for the Democrat to make the Iraq critique resonate. Polls show voters favor Bush over Kerry on Iraq and terrorism. The president shines the spotlight on his foreign policy agenda with a visit Tuesday to the United Nations.

Kerry said in August that he would have voted in 2002 to give Bush war-making ability, even had he known no weapons of mass destruction would be found. He stood by the vote again Monday, saying the president needed to use the threat of force to ``act effectively'' against Saddam.

He made a distinction between that vote to grant a president war-making authority and what he himself would have done as commander in chief with such power.

``Yet today, President Bush tells us that he would do everything all over again, the same way. How can he possibly be serious?'' Bush's presidential rival said at New York University.

``Is he really saying to Americans that if we had known there were no imminent threat, no weapons of mass destruction, no ties to al-Qaida, the United States should have invaded Iraq? My answer is resoundingly no because a commander in chief's first responsibility is to make a wise and responsible decision to keep America safe.''

Kerry called national security ``a central issue in this campaign,'' a bow to the fact that the race is being waged on Bush's terrain. Under pressure from anxious Democrats, Kerry is trying to cede none of that turf.

``Invading Iraq was a crisis of historic proportions and, if we do not change course, there is the prospect of a war with no end in sight,'' he said.

Kerry used the word ``truth'' a dozen times to say Bush had dodged it. That doesn't count the number of times he said the president ``failed to level'' with Americans or misled and confused them. He blamed Bush for ``colossal failures of judgment.''

``This is stubborn incompetence,'' he said.

Kerry has sounded more hawkish, as in December when Democratic primary rival Howard Dean said the world was not safer with Saddam out of power. Anybody who believes that, Kerry said, doesn't ``have the judgment to be president.''

Reading that quote to his GOP crowd on Monday, Bush cracked: ``I could not have said it better.''
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:04 PM   #2
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I can't believe anybody would want this guy in charge of anything.
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:46 PM   #3
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Kerry is a tool, only the die hard democrats will probably vote for him..
Yes, I'm opinionated, but I haven't liked him from the start..

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Old 09-21-2004, 06:00 PM   #4
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*cough* http://www.flipfloppingbush.com/ *cough*
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Old 09-21-2004, 06:14 PM   #5
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people are going to say he a flip flopper no matter what he says, that has always been a republican line. but the fact is that what Bush ran on, he never did.
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Old 09-21-2004, 06:27 PM   #6
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yea, cuz bush NEVER contradicts himself

[/sarcasm]
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Old 09-21-2004, 06:32 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dark
yea, cuz bush NEVER contradicts himself

[/sarcasm]
what the heck are you smoking, yes we all make mistakes but bush makes a decision and stays with it for the most part, you CANNOT say the same for kerry
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Old 09-21-2004, 06:48 PM   #8
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^if you look at the link i posted, you'll see that bush flips on some pretty important stuff
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Old 09-21-2004, 10:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dark
^if you look at the link i posted, you'll see that bush flips on some pretty important stuff
I'm glad you get your information from a website that looked like a 3rd grader designed it.

Quote:
Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
^ Thats the dumbest statement I have seen today (well actually I watched the Kerry news Conference so its the second dumbest statement today)

9/11 sent us into a recession. Cost the coutnry billions of dollars, cause airlines to go bankrupt, travel agency to fail, and the stock market to crash. Unemployment went up because no one was buying, traveling or doing anything.

All because a bunch of middle eastern asshats hi jacked 4 planes and crashed them. Then we have the war in Afganastan, and then the war in Iraq.

Quote:
Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.
Oh yea you gotta love this. The link they provide is dated March 2003. Funny because read below

Quote:
We're providing $4 billion in grants for our nation's first responders. We're focusing $725 million on major urban areas where it is most needed. We're also providing $40 million for Citizen Corps Councils through which volunteers work with first responders to prepare their communities for emergencies. We're ensuring that America's firefighters and police officers and emergency medical personnel have the best possible training and equipment and help they need to do their job.
http://www.georgewbush.com/HomelandS...d.aspx?ID=2045

^ now look at the date of that article.

Give me a break

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Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.
PROVE IT. What a great site Dark. Makes a claim and doesnt back it up what so ever. Nice!!!!

^ That goes for the countless other claims with nothing backing them up as well.

They give you 30 claims and 5 sources

Dark give me a break. I give you foxnews, msnbc and cnn sources to back up what I say.

It is very very well documented that John Kerry has changed his mind on Iraq many many times in the last 4 years.

If you cant see that then I dont give a **** quite frankly. I can only prove you wrong so many times before it gets old.I admit when I am wrong and I do make mistakes. But ever since you have talked to me about politics you cant back up a word that you say. You give me YOUR Opinion but YOUR opinion ISNT a FACT. I agree with somethings that you say.

But seriously, GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!
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Old 09-21-2004, 10:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oaktonarcher
people are going to say he a flip flopper no matter what he says, that has always been a republican line. but the fact is that what Bush ran on, he never did.
lol John Kerry has changed his mind on Iraq so many times. If you cant see that or cant aknowledge that then I'm sorry but thats sad.

Its no Right Wing Conspiracy this time Hillary
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Old 09-21-2004, 10:41 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by dark
yea, cuz bush NEVER contradicts himself

[/sarcasm]
Oh no he is perfect just like you
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Old 09-21-2004, 10:45 PM   #12
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i'll bet kerry could throw a kickass tea party :cloud:
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Old 09-22-2004, 12:04 AM   #13
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John Kerry said today that President Bush didnt tell the American people that the war was going to cost 200 billion dollars.

Since when does any president in the history of the United States know how much a war is going to cost? Dumbass......
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Old 09-22-2004, 12:49 AM   #14
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god i love having political threads here, some people shout out accusations, and i can then rely on brent finding 10 different sites stating facts against those claims.

now im not one of these guys who are totally left or right wing. ida voted for clinton over dole any day. too bad i was like 10 then but i still knew what was going on. so far there hasnt been another democrat good enough to topple bush. now if kerry had a actual opinion on things then it might be different.

well see come november how dumb and shortsighted america has become. if bush loses i move to canada or cuba or something.
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Old 09-22-2004, 01:09 AM   #15
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if bush loses i move to canada or cuba or something.
you can't move to canada. No one can become a citizen of Canada right now as both canidates want to impose the draft in late 2005.

anyway. I am still deciding if I want to register to vote again. Texas is going to goto Bush easily and that is who I would vote for. The thing is that since neither candidate is good in my opinion, writing in Perot or Mickey Mouse would be about as useful.

and yes, political threads are pointless. This is why it is not smart to discuss politics in person especially. Everyone has a different viewpoint and it is pointless to argue because you're not going to change their mind.
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Old 09-22-2004, 03:01 AM   #16
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Quite Frankly I want someone like John McCain to run in 08 and I wish that Bush would drop Cheney and pick up someone else. Cheney gets on my nerves sometimes.

But when it comes to Bush Kerry there is no question who I am voting for. I would have voted for bush in 2000 if I could have and I will be voting for Bush in 2004. For those that say you are voting for the lesser of two evils, I guess you can say I am as well. Bush as not been the perfect president by far. He has made mistakes in the Iraq war and he did not do a good job with his Speech to the UN today. However, compared to Kerry Bush is a God in my book.

I want someone in the White house that doesnt lean so far to the left and so far to the right that it annoys you to no end. John McCain is pretty good in that category.He relies that Iraq was a threat and needed to be taken care of REGARDLESS OF WOMD. You can have a field day with Bush saying there was womd in there all you want. I dont care if there were or not. Had there been proof that there wasnt womd in Iraq before the war I would have still voted to beat the **** out of them. Maybe he rushed into it... well its already started now. We cant go back and change it.

This is where John Kerry comes in trying to be a badass and tell everyone that he has a 4 point plan to get France and Germany and all the other people who were doing business with Sadaam before the war to help us with the current war. The United Nations is worthless. Kofi Anin is a tool. He is full of crap and doesnt care about the well being of this world.

I'm sick of hearing people say we should have waited until we had the support of our allies.

I'm sorry, our allies dont do business with the enemy. Right up until the war started as well. I dont want France helping us, Russia or Germany. I dont want them to make a dime off rebuilding the ****hole of a country. Oil for Food money being used for anything but food. They knew what was going on.

When I see John Kerry say he is going to work with the United Nations and get things back to the way they were before we figured out exactly how much good the UN served makes me extremely pissed. His 4 point plan is a joke. It wont work. You cant just snap your fingers and everythings alright. Thats EXACTLY what he is trying to make you believe. If you elect John kerry the soliders will stop dying, the French will loves us, and Barbra Striesand will return to America... wait she did leave like she said she was going to didnt she?

wow........ I'll stop there.....
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Old 09-22-2004, 07:34 AM   #17
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^now that i can agree with. i'll vote McCain

and i didn't bother to check dates on my link. it was just a quick search before i went to work, but whatever. oh, and as for the webpage it was on, some of us aren't webdesign gods like you brent :-p
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Old 09-22-2004, 04:09 PM   #18
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i think the war it Iraq was a hugh mistake, i would rather have McCain then Bush or Kerry any day. but thats not an option right now. actually i would rather have Clinton back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
you can't move to canada. No one can become a citizen of Canada right now as both canidates want to impose the draft in late 2005.
and where did this come from? are both of them for the draft in 05? this is my main problem with Bush, its how bad he has handled this war.
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Old 09-22-2004, 04:19 PM   #19
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Wow Brent, wish you could talk to the small group of liberals at my school...they will not listen to anything, yet expect you to hear everything they have to say...wow our country needs Bush to win
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Old 09-22-2004, 04:46 PM   #20
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No Draft
No Draft
No Draft
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Old 09-22-2004, 04:50 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timpryor
No Draft
No Draft
No Draft
exactly how i feel
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Old 09-22-2004, 04:51 PM   #22
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If the whole draft thing is true, then isn't that another flip flp for Kerry? When you think about it, the whole vietnam thing was the sending of soldiers that didn't sign up off to war. His beef was to bring them home for this reason or that. Now, isn't it a bit of a flip that he would want to re-instate the draft so that he could send uninterested soldiers off to war too? Doesn't make sense to me.

On a side note, if the military would let those in that want to get in (like me), they might not have an issue. Me - 6', 270. Can't get in because i am too heavy? I should weigh 208 I believe they said. Hmm, not unless I start triming body parts. If I was 0% body fat I would be around 240ish, maybe 230. Not gonna happen.
[/side note]
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Old 09-22-2004, 05:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smurfin
On a side note, if the military would let those in that want to get in (like me), they might not have an issue. Me - 6', 270. Can't get in because i am too heavy? I should weigh 208 I believe they said. Hmm, not unless I start triming body parts. If I was 0% body fat I would be around 240ish, maybe 230. Not gonna happen.
[/side note]
go to a marines, i had a friend that did that and they helped him loose a ton of weight, they really dont give up on you, they send you to a sperate camp for a month or two or how ever long it takes.
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Old 09-22-2004, 05:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oaktonarcher
go to a marines, i had a friend that did that and they helped him loose a ton of weight, they really dont give up on you, they send you to a sperate camp for a month or two or how ever long it takes.
Back in my day when I tried to up (wow, that makes me sound old..1995), they wouldn't sign me for nothing. They said get down to 208 and then we can sign you. I tried the army, airforce, and marines. None were interested unless I was a waife. I knew of the military "fat camps" and they said they didn't exist and it was a rumor. Of which, I knew it wasn't a rumor.

Needless to say, they wouldn't sign me, and there really is no way for me to get to the 208 mark. My arms are 19" around, thighs about 31" around, and a body fat mark of around 12% last I checked. Their "measure your neck and your chest and divide" test said I had 43% body fat. My neck is 20" around and back then my chest wasn't as big as now so the ratio was WAAAAY off. Not a very accurate test.

None the less, they let a pip squeek in that came in after me and told me to lose weight and come back. Working out would have made me loose some, and gain muscle. Oh well, their loss not mine.
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Old 09-22-2004, 06:35 PM   #25
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I was thinking about armed forces for a while...none will take me anymore. I don't even believe I can be drafted...O well. So much for that one.
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Old 09-22-2004, 06:35 PM   #26
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and where did this come from? are both of them for the draft in 05? this is my main problem with Bush, its how bad he has handled this war.
my friend is in the army and thus he has some inside information. he told me that both candidates want the draft. male or female, school or not in school.
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Old 09-22-2004, 06:50 PM   #27
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**** the draft
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Old 09-22-2004, 07:10 PM   #28
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if they have a draft im ****ing leavung this country
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Old 09-22-2004, 07:35 PM   #29
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is it true that if your flat footed you cant be in the armed forces?
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Old 09-22-2004, 09:39 PM   #30
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I would in all seriousness love to be in the armed forces, mainly the air force. But...noone will take me, or even look at me. o well
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Old 09-22-2004, 09:41 PM   #31
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I would in all seriousness love to be in the armed forces, mainly the air force. But...noone will take me, or even look at me. o well
weird at my school there are loads of recruiters that keep callin like every guy in our high school
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Old 09-22-2004, 09:47 PM   #32
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I have 8 screws in my hip, and 2 in my ankle, cracked skulll plus many more injuries...they won't take me...
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Old 09-23-2004, 02:13 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Falcon
weird at my school there are loads of recruiters that keep callin like every guy in our high school
they will not leave me alone. they hate me now tho. every time they try and feed me all the stuff about signing bonuses and retirment plans i just start asking about Iraq, and i end up scarying people away.
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Old 09-23-2004, 02:38 PM   #34
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They used to call my house all the time, I think my rents got sick of it so they told them to stop. This was a year or two after I graduated lol.
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Old 09-23-2004, 02:41 PM   #35
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They used to call my house all the time, I think my rents got sick of it so they told them to stop. This was a year or two after I graduated lol.
when they ever send mail to me my parents throw it out before i even see it. they dont want me to even entertain the thought of the military. but i made my decision april of 2003
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