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-   -   Max 302 (http://www.mustangevolution.com/forum/f142/t347764/)

Sgt_Syke 01-15-2014 01:24 PM

Max 302
 
I'm wondering what would be considered the max power output of a 302 while keeping mpg's the same? I know as you increase power mileage is the trade off, that's why I'm wondering how much you can squeeze out of it without effecting mileage.

---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------

85-93 roller motor...forgot to mention.

fordtough1991 01-15-2014 01:54 PM

I know that a stock 302 block can only handle about 500 MAX before splitting the block

mystang50 01-15-2014 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordtough1991 (Post 1924462)
I know that a stock 302 block can only handle about 500 MAX before splitting the block

pretty much

ALMOST STOCK 01-15-2014 02:27 PM

max power output of a 302 while keeping mpg's the same?

Maybe 10-15 hp more........after that your mpg would start to go down from there.

Sgt_Syke 01-15-2014 04:04 PM

Thanks almost stock, for answering question. So, now to question number two...build options that won't totally kill my mileage? I'd still like to travel on interstate without watching my fuel gauge drop to E. it's a daily driver, looking for as much power possible. Options are 306, 331, 347. My thought is, I know I can make more power with more cubes...but mileage also will suffer. And I don't see much point in disassembling, machining, and building a 306. If I'm gonna do all that, doesn't it make more sense to go 331 or 347? (I'm not going to do a 351 cuz no access to one). If I tear it down to rebuild, I'll have to get new internals anyway, why not go as big as I can? So, any good combo ideas for this?

TheRoadWarrior 01-16-2014 01:03 AM

Sorry, there is no way to increase HP or displacement without using more fuel in a pushrod motor. Unless you do a coyote swap or something I can't see how adding power can not adversely effect fuel economy.

Sgt_Syke 01-16-2014 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRoadWarrior (Post 1924859)
Sorry, there is no way to increase HP or displacement without using more fuel in a pushrod motor. Unless you do a coyote swap or something I can't see how adding power can not adversely effect fuel economy.

I understand and agree with you...now, mpg's aside, I'm trying to decide where to spend my money. If I'm going to have to rebuild the motor, do you think it best to go 306, 331, or 347? Personally, I don't see much sense in building a smaller stroker when I could build a larger one that will probably get about the same economy, but make more power...make sense to anyone out there? Basically want the most power while saving as much economy as possible. So...if that means a 331 build that makes 350hp, at 22 mpg (roughly) then I'm good with that. If you think that would be a 347 with 400hp and 20 mpg, I'm good with that. I'm asking what and how to build a street friendly dd out of my stock block with the most power?

scottydsntknow 01-16-2014 01:13 PM

A power adder will not adversely effect fuel economy if you keep your foot out of it. A GREAT combo for a daily driven car that needs decent mileage is:

-Stock 302 bottom end
-GT40 heads
-GT40 intake
-Stock cam
-All the "bolt ons"
-Vortech S trim with a proper fuel system and a good dyno tune

Keeping your foot out of it this car will still get 20mpg+. Put your foot down and your mileage will completely tank but you'll put down 425-450rwhp.

Sgt_Syke 01-16-2014 01:20 PM

So, if I have an 87 motor that needs machining, I won't be able to use stock crank or pistons though...right? Scotty would that combo work on 306? Or should I just do the 347?

Roguestang 01-17-2014 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottydsntknow (Post 1925165)
A power adder will not adversely effect fuel economy if you keep your foot out of it. A GREAT combo for a daily driven car that needs decent mileage is:

-Stock 302 bottom end
-GT40 heads
-GT40 intake
-Stock cam
-All the "bolt ons"
-Vortech S trim with a proper fuel system and a good dyno tune

Keeping your foot out of it this car will still get 20mpg+. Put your foot down and your mileage will completely tank but you'll put down 425-450rwhp.

This is basically what I did with my Fox. And you can't stress the importance of a good tune enough. That can make or break your goals.

TheRoadWarrior 01-17-2014 11:06 AM

Power adders, I've yet to meet a mustang driver with a turbo or S/C that could keep their foot off the gas. It would be like a meth addict trying to carry a case of sudafed with them everywhere they go without opening it lol; possible, but we all know the probability lol.

Roguestang 01-17-2014 11:16 AM

Lol this is true.....

scottydsntknow 01-17-2014 01:36 PM

I'm talking about on the highway. On the highway, cruising at 70mph in 5th gear with a S trim in a 302 with a stock cam/gt40 heads and intake is going to get 20+ hwympg and that is fact. Unless you are running like 4.56 gears or something. I'd do 3.55s with the 302 and a S trim. Maybe 3.73s. At 70mph you'll only be turning 2300rpm ish with 3.73s.

Roguestang 01-17-2014 01:45 PM

This is true as well. I've still got the stock 2.73's in there from when it had the AOD. And at 70 I'm barely over 2K. My gas mileage isn't so good, but that's because I always floor it until the car shakes like its gonna fall apart when I merge onto the hwy.... Lol
Soon though, I'm going to swap them out for some 3.27's, maybe 3.55's. Lord knows after 24 years, the rear could use a rebuild too

scottydsntknow 01-17-2014 02:38 PM

31 spline termi diff is like $200 brand new. Good excuse to swap up to 31 spline axles too and redo the axle bearings. Or just go IRS...

Roguestang 01-17-2014 05:12 PM

For sure, I'm planning on running alittle more boost in the future, so 31 splines will be in her future

scottydsntknow 01-17-2014 05:57 PM

I'm actually going to the 03 termi IRS which will get me a 31 spline setup too albeit in a totally different fashion.

Roguestang 01-17-2014 06:38 PM

Yeah if I was going to build a dedicated track car, or found an irs for rather cheap in my area, I would swap it in, since its really easy. But for my purposes an upgraded 8.8 will do just fine. Plus I know a guy who is a master at building them as well as a parts source. He qouted me a great price on a built 8.8 with 31 splines and gears of my choice. Heck I would love to swap an irs in my New Edge too! Lol

scottydsntknow 01-18-2014 12:20 AM

I'm swapping to a 98. Only difference is you have to drill/tap for the forward mounts. Some ppl run really long grade 8 bolts all the way through the trunk for extra peace of mind. Honestly for a dedicated track car I'd stay with the SRA and do a watts link (handling) or just a simple beef up for the 1/4. IRS shines on the street where you aren't going to have perfect smooth asphalt all the time. One bump with the SRA and weee off you go, with the IRS not so much. IRS just needs the FTBR kit and good to go. Plus I'm supposedly getting one with 80k on it for $300 plus my rear/brakes/springs/LCAs which I consider a good deal. Tailpipes we will swap and I'll grab a set of mufflers off the interwebs.

Roguestang 01-18-2014 07:50 AM

Yeah 300 isn't a bad deal at all. I assume you'll be doing the Install yourself. Do you plan on doing a write up?

scottydsntknow 01-18-2014 08:52 AM

There are 8 million writeups out there already but yeah I'll be DIY. Minor modification of the brake lines, drill/tap for the pre-99 mount, I remember reading something about the ABS but the beauty of the swap is we both just take everything off both cars so there is no issue.

I'm also planning on deleting the ABS and going to the MM manual brake kit anyway. I hate ABS and manual brakes done right feel almost like power brakes.

At any rate, back to the question someone asked about a 306 or 347. IMO a 306 is fine IF you need a rebuild. A 347 and a power adder on a stock block is a COMPLETE and total waste of money. You see these ppl putting forged stroker assemblies into stock blocks and then talking about a power adder and its like wtf. If you have a DART that is one thing but not the stock block.

TheRoadWarrior 01-18-2014 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottydsntknow (Post 1926311)
There are 8 million writeups out there already but yeah I'll be DIY. Minor modification of the brake lines, drill/tap for the pre-99 mount, I remember reading something about the ABS but the beauty of the swap is we both just take everything off both cars so there is no issue.

I'm also planning on deleting the ABS and going to the MM manual brake kit anyway. I hate ABS and manual brakes done right feel almost like power brakes.

At any rate, back to the question someone asked about a 306 or 347. IMO a 306 is fine IF you need a rebuild. A 347 and a power adder on a stock block is a COMPLETE and total waste of money. You see these ppl putting forged stroker assemblies into stock blocks and then talking about a power adder and its like wtf. If you have a DART that is one thing but not the stock block.

Agreed. All the forged parts in the world will not help if the weakest link is the block itself.

Sgt_Syke 01-18-2014 06:13 PM

So...after a lot of research, I see what you mean on the strokers on stock block. Here's the issue, limited budget, trying to keep street friendly, readily available stock block ( I have an 86 with over 200k still runs clean and an 87 with a spun bearing). So really they both could use rebuilds. I see now why Scotty you are always recommending a 351, it's a stronger base and you can always build for more power later. But with two motors that need to be rebuilt, I was planning on doing a 400hp/400tq range street car...well within limits of stock block, then swapping motors and redoing or selling 86. I'm thinking I would be plenty happy with 400/400 for a street car and then possibly hand that down to my son in another car, while I build something meaner for me to play with. As mentioned I have a motor sitting around that needs to be machined anyway, I'm thinking if I have to pay to rebuild it, I might as well get as many cubes as I can? I'm not planning on boosting or NOS, b/c of stock block, just was curious as to diff options. In my situation, what would you do?

scottydsntknow 01-18-2014 06:24 PM

Well what do you mean by limited funds? Because by the time you get done with the trans, rear, chassis stiffening, suspension and a fuel system plus the motor PLUS making the interior/exterior nice you're going to be into it for $10k+ easy and that's if you do all the work yourself.

I mean you don't HAVE to do all that but if you want it to be reliable and put the power to the ground properly you do.

Sgt_Syke 01-18-2014 09:50 PM

10k is max budget. I would start with safety stuff and motor first, gears, suspension, looks will be last...interior

scottydsntknow 01-19-2014 12:16 PM

Ok to work within that budget I would do:

-Lowest mileage 96-01 5.0 Explorer motor you can find. 96/early 97 is the GT40s, 97.5-up is the GT40P.
-Swap in a 87-95 Mustang GT cam
-1.7 rocker arms
-New springs/pushrods
-If your trans is ok roll with it, if not I know a place you can get a brand newly rebuilt T-5 shipped to your door for $700. If you need to hold more power and stick with a 5 speed do NOT get a TKO or a T-56, call up Astro and get an A5.
-Steeda subframes
-Steeda LCAs
-New stock UCA bushings
-A arm bushings
-Steeda X2 balljoints
-5 lug conversion
-termi 31 spline diff and 31 spline axles
-Your choice of buget shocks/struts/springs
-MM CC plates
-Wheels and tires of your choice
-Walbro 255lph pump
-Kirban AFPR
-New seats like Corbeaus or recover your seats with the TMI Terminator upholstery upgrade kit
-New mass back carpet
-I'd honestly swap in the best 87-93 black interior you can find, just remember the 87-89 and 90-93 have differences.
-3G alternator if it didn't come with the motor
-Paint if it needs it
-And of course all the bolt ons which would be:
--Gears
--Longtubes
--OR midpipe
--Catback
--Pullies
--CAI
--Shifter
--Aluminum DS

I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff there but this is the exact route I would take if I ever get a fox or SN95 5.0 again for a budget build. This list will take up most or all of that $10k to be totally honest, **** adds up FAST. At this point you can figure out what you want to do for more power. A shot of nitrous is there for the 1/4 days and is cheap. A S trim will take you up to the 400+whp level with ease and as long as you keep your foot out of it then it'll drive like a stock Cobra 5.0 will.

Sgt_Syke 01-19-2014 12:44 PM

Why the explorer motors? Do they have stronger blocks?

scottydsntknow 01-19-2014 12:51 PM

No they come with GT40 heads and intake stock. Like of like the "PI" motor of the 5.0 world with the regular 5.0 HO being the NPI.

Sgt_Syke 01-19-2014 02:02 PM

Why the explorer motors? Do they have stronger blocks?

scottydsntknow 01-19-2014 02:56 PM

??? I just answered it. Quick/cheap way to get a motor that already has a decent flowing intake and cylinder heads already on it.

Sgt_Syke 01-19-2014 03:51 PM

My phone is screwy, I didn't ask again, it just does that sometimes.

scottydsntknow 01-19-2014 05:17 PM

Get rid of that icrap already!

CoolHorsey 01-19-2014 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt_Syke (Post 1927204)
My phone is screwy, I didn't ask again, it just does that sometimes.


Get a Barbie dream phone


Sent from my Barbie Dream Phone®

Sgt_Syke 01-20-2014 01:21 PM

So, if I went with an aftermarket 302 block setup, which would you recommend and how much power can they take? I'm thinking maybe I should get a stronger 302 block to build my setup, or 351. Nice thing about 302 is I can drop it right in. And if its limited at something like 600hp, then I don't need to do a 351.

tyler k 01-20-2014 02:58 PM

You can keep your stock block with a dss block gurdle. Makes 600 horse acheivable with stock block. But as far as economy goes. It's in the top end and exhaust. More cubes makes more power for sure. But some afr 175cc or 185cc heads. A fair sized cam. Bigger tb and injectors if fuel injection. And port match. Headers and exhaust helps. Getting cold air helps.


10:35 AM

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