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-   -   Building new motor for 7up (http://www.mustangevolution.com/forum/f142/t373804/)

lowflyn 12-14-2015 10:08 PM

Building new motor for 7up
 
Might as well start a thread.

Picked up a 90 Mustang shortblock last night. Tore it down tonight and verified tsw forged pistons. It'll be dropped off to bb&t this week for tank, shotpeen and honing.

Gt40 upper/lower being sandblasted and painted. Should have those by end of the week.

Now to find a set of GT40 heads. Heard of a set at pull a part so I might make a stop by there.

Goal is ~275 whp through the aod. E cam, very mild build for under $1000. Cam might change depending on what a comp cam connection can get me.

I'll keep a tally of parts/cost and attempt to update this first post.

90 5.0 shortblock $125
GT40 upper/lower $165

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lowflyn 12-14-2015 10:09 PM

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12...801637706f.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12...147a46758b.jpg

What I started with and piston verification.

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sonicpony03 12-14-2015 11:01 PM

Very nice. I'll be following as my brother in law and I have been talking about doing a fox body budget build in a year or two. This seems to fall right in line with what we would do.

Didn't the 5.0's in the old explorers have GT40 heads? IIRC there is a specific casting number that designates them GT40 heads...

lowflyn 12-15-2015 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonicpony03 (Post 2319415)
Very nice. I'll be following as my brother in law and I have been talking about doing a fox body budget build in a year or two. This seems to fall right in line with what we would do.

Didn't the 5.0's in the old explorers have GT40 heads? IIRC there is a specific casting number that designates them GT40 heads...

You have to look for the 3 mark heads. I don't want to buy special headers so I'm sticking GT40 not GT40p. Mercury Mountaineer had them as well.

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oxford5pointoh 12-15-2015 08:02 AM

I just sold a set of 3 bar heads to a member on here. Came from a 96 exploder. Good luck on your hunt!

smurf stang 12-15-2015 11:38 AM

Good luck.


Hopefully you will hit 260 to the wheels but them heads are gonna hold ya back a bit.

lowflyn 12-15-2015 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurf stang (Post 2319486)
Good luck.


Hopefully you will hit 260 to the wheels but them heads are gonna hold ya back a bit.

I was just throwing a number out there. Im not really concerned with power.

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olerodder 12-15-2015 12:43 PM

I'd concentrate on the GT40P heads as they are quite a bit better than the GT40's. Also look at the 96 and up Explorers....they also have the P's. If you are going to use the 303 cam I'd have the heads machined for screw in studs.....pressed in studs have been known to come out.............even under moderate spring pressure.
Since you are tearing the motor down don't forget to have the rods sized...and while you are at it I'd have the mains checked to make sure you don't need to hone the main bore. One last thing is to replace the rods bolts with some ARP....I know you aren't worried about HP........just a wise thing to do since you have the motor torn down and at the machine shop anyway.....longevity/reliability is something you want to strive for. If I were you I'd even try my hand....no pun intended....at port matching and maybe a little grinding on the head.....it's gratifying to say the least and if you've never done it before now is the time to start...........IMHO

scottydsntknow 12-15-2015 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowflyn (Post 2319490)
I was just throwing a number out there. Im not really concerned with power.

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Yah, ppl get too hung up on the numbers and forget about how the car actually performs.

GT40 and E cam is a great combo and will sound amazing and have a ton of low end. Shift kit and converter in that AOD and that's going to be a hell of a fun ride.

lowflyn 12-15-2015 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olerodder (Post 2319492)
I'd concentrate on the GT40P heads as they are quite a bit better than the GT40's. Also look at the 96 and up Explorers....they also have the P's. If you are going to use the 303 cam I'd have the heads machined for screw in studs.....pressed in studs have been known to come out.............even under moderate spring pressure.
Since you are tearing the motor down don't forget to have the rods sized...and while you are at it I'd have the mains checked to make sure you don't need to hone the main bore. One last thing is to replace the rods bolts with some ARP....I know you aren't worried about HP........just a wise thing to do since you have the motor torn down and at the machine shop anyway.....longevity/reliability is something you want to strive for. If I were you I'd even try my hand....no pun intended....at port matching and maybe a little grinding on the head.....it's gratifying to say the least and if you've never done it before now is the time to start...........IMHO

This is my first time playing with a pushrod. I've owned this car since 08 and its not going anywhere so I really don't mind spending a little more time playing with it.

So the P would really be a better option? Going to scour a few junkyards this weekend and will just grab the best ones I come across.
Quote:

Originally Posted by scottydsntknow (Post 2319495)
Yah, ppl get too hung up on the numbers and forget about how the car actually performs.

GT40 and E cam is a great combo and will sound amazing and have a ton of low end. Shift kit and converter in that AOD and that's going to be a hell of a fun ride.

Have just always loved the healthy cam sound. Factory motor has major blow by so I figured why not have a little fun. Car will most likely never see the strip. Just cruises and shows like its been for the last 7 years.

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scottydsntknow 12-15-2015 01:31 PM

If you are going with a cheap $100 cam the B cam is another good one as is the TFS1.


All good advice from olerodder. I would definitely stick with the 3 bar regular GT40 heads btw, not the P heads unless you absolutely can't find a set of regular ones. They used regular GT40s on all the Cobras and the Exploder/Mountaineer up until the mid 97 MY. The P heads are a nightmare with spark plug changes even with the correct headers.


One last thing is to be very careful with how much $$$ you put into those GT40 heads. Costs can add up real quick with new springs/locks/retainers/valvejob/decking etc... I know when I did my last pushrod back in the late 2000s I was able to score a set of aluminum edelbrock heads for $700 shipped and would not have had to pay much more for some TW heads.

olerodder 12-15-2015 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowflyn (Post 2319498)
This is my first time playing with a pushrod. I've owned this car since 08 and its not going anywhere so I really don't mind spending a little more time playing with it.

So the P would really be a better option? Going to scour a few junkyards this weekend and will just grab the best ones I come across.

Have just always loved the healthy cam sound. Factory motor has major blow by so I figured why not have a little fun. Car will most likely never see the strip. Just cruises and shows like its been for the last 7 years.

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GT40P heads have a smaller combustion chamber....not a lot...depending on the piston can raise the CR slightly. GT40P head has like a 58-60cc chamber and the GT40 like 62/63 to 66cc chamber. Also the GT40 head has the thermactor holes to connect the smog junk...GT40P's do not....also GT40P's are usually cheaper........why.....because the stock valve springs on the GT40P will hardly work with the HO Ford cam which is only .444 lift......so you would have to get different valve springs also....which I'm sure you would do anyway.....and it's been a long time but I thought the seats had to be machined to take the bigger valve springs....although I'm not sure. Oh, the last difference is that the GT40P has a smaller exhaust valve which is 1.46 and the GT40 has a 1.54....on the street this is not even something you could feel in the seat of your pants. We always went to 1.94 Chevy intakes from the 1.84 GT40(P) stock intakes.
Kind of six of one and half a dozen of the other...........good luck with you hunt.

I almost forgot about the headers....can be a nightmare unless you get the right ones and sometimes you need to get 90 degree connectors also.
Scotty is right about the amount of money spent on the GT40(p) heads....there are used aluminum heads everywhere....just need to be sure they are not used up....and also don't get sucked into buying some of the aluminum heads made in China...they are pretty much junk even though they are cheap.

sonicpony03 12-15-2015 08:14 PM

Damn, you guys have got some notches in the belt when it comes to these damn things. I am gonna remember that when we finally do start a 302 foxbody build.

oxford5pointoh 12-15-2015 08:16 PM

Ole rodder,

You will find GT40 3 bar heads on explorers as late as early 97 models before they convert to the GT40p. Just FYI. 97 models can be a toss up but a 96 will have the 3 bars.

olerodder 12-15-2015 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonicpony03 (Post 2319614)
Damn, you guys have got some notches in the belt when it comes to these damn things. I am gonna remember that when we finally do start a 302 foxbody build.

If you are going to stay with a push rod motor I'd highly suggest going with a 351w instead of little 302...........unless it's a Boss 302 of course.

Hellish Horse 12-16-2015 02:13 AM

Did a similar build not long ago. Bought 3-Bar GT40 Heads off an explorer for $90 at the junkyard. Had my heads done up so I could use 1.6 Roller Rockers & Dual Coil Valve Springs.
The car made 315 H.P. I also used 24-lb. injectors, all New Bearings, Rings, etc.
Then sold the car to buy my 08GT. Should have kept the 94....sure miss it...was a quick little car !!!

Hellish Horse 12-16-2015 02:15 AM

http://www.mustangevolution.com/foru...5526-37002.jpg

lowflyn 12-16-2015 07:46 AM

I found a Mountaineer at a local yard that had the GT40's. Trying to find time to get by and see if they're still there. If nothing else I'll just clean up a set of E7's and call it done.

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scottydsntknow 12-16-2015 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oxford5pointoh (Post 2319615)
Ole rodder,

You will find GT40 3 bar heads on explorers as late as early 97 models before they convert to the GT40p. Just FYI. 97 models can be a toss up but a 96 will have the 3 bars.

Yep, just gander at the front of the heads. I really REALLY would not buy P heads... been there, done that. All the info you gave out about them is correct. Exhaust valve is a little smaller, compression is a little higher... they both make similar power all things being equal but those spark plugs... Header nightmare, spark plugs you basically have to make your own custom socket and the spark plug wire routing is a mess.


TBTH, I'd go so far as to say he might want to just wait for a deal and a discount code on a set of new TW heads... probably would not be super more expensive than getting a set of GT40s completely gone through by a shop. $100-$200 for heads, $200-$300 for springs/locks/retainers/seals and then $$$ for the machine work etc... going with the irons. With a good set of TW 170s they'll flow ridiculously better right out of the box and there is room to grow later on. And they are lighter.



http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-51410004-M61/


$1250 is probably more than he wanted to spend but that's a really good deal for what you get and they are ready to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by olerodder (Post 2319633)
If you are going to stay with a push rod motor I'd highly suggest going with a 351w instead of little 302...........unless it's a Boss 302 of course.

Agreed. If I ever get back into pushrods, 408 and there is no other option IMO. Everything, EVERYTHING is better, cost is only marginally more, block is way stronger etc... I was not actually aware of all the mods you could do to the D1-D4 blocks and was always under the impression that the C9-D0 were the ones to use even with the slightly shorter deck height etc... I would seriously look into a modded 71-74 block if I ever did one after looking into all the stuff you said. Even though a roller block will probably hold up to 700hp no problem...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellish Horse (Post 2319713)
Did a similar build not long ago. Bought 3-Bar GT40 Heads off an explorer for $90 at the junkyard. Had my heads done up so I could use 1.6 Roller Rockers & Dual Coil Valve Springs.
The car made 315 H.P. I also used 24-lb. injectors, all New Bearings, Rings, etc.
Then sold the car to buy my 08GT. Should have kept the 94....sure miss it...was a quick little car !!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellish Horse (Post 2319714)

Nice. Yeah that 94 was probably much more fun but I bet your 08 is just nicer to bomb around in.

olerodder 12-16-2015 10:23 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Just so you know that the later blocks from 75 on are not good enough to hold 650HP at the crank for long as the main web has 10lbs less material. If you are wanting 700HP and close to 600lbft or torque the only way to go is an aftermarket block....not to say people haven't done it...........it's just a grenade waiting to happen....and when it lets go all of those pretty and expensive internal parts are junk.
Here is a picture of one of my 71 blocks which I installed 4bolt mains on.....650HP all day long with no crank flexing....and no main girdle.

Hellish Horse 12-16-2015 01:29 PM

I've heard 500 H.P. is the Max for a stock block.
The 08 is OK...Has about the same H.P. (Stock) as the 94 did (Kinda Built)
What I really want is a 67-68 Fastback with a Coyote Motor & Suspension.
Now that would be Bomb !!!

olerodder 12-16-2015 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellish Horse (Post 2319827)
I've heard 500 H.P. is the Max for a stock block.
The 08 is OK...Has about the same H.P. (Stock) as the 94 did (Kinda Built)
What I really want is a 67-68 Fastback with a Coyote Motor & Suspension.
Now that would be Bomb !!!

Not sure if you are talking about 351w blocks.......the late 71 to early 74 351w OE block if prep'd correctly will hold 650hp without an issue.......it's the later blocks that are safe at 500hp...........again, if prep'd correctly.....and are not real candidates for reliable HP levels over that...........my 97 Cobra was great at 300rwhp and when the supercharger was mounted on top and I tried to run 12psi...........ring lands started to come apart..............if you are going to build a Mod motor around stock rods/pistons........you can expect issues if want max HP....again...........IMHO.

scottydsntknow 12-16-2015 02:39 PM

Way too many stock blocked 302 based strokers out there. They'll do the "level 20" treatment or whatever with the girdle and screw in freeze plugs and then sit there in shock when their 550hp supercharged setup is in a neat little pile on the ground (held together by said girdle) after a WOT pull.


Pushrod = Strong rotating assembly and weak block


Modluar = Strong as HELL block and weak rotating assembly (except the Termi)


Coyote = Strong everything with the Boss (Roadrunner) rods and pistons good for 800 supposedly.

lowflyn 12-16-2015 05:06 PM

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12...e040f01739.jpg

Off to the machine shop.

Everything matches what I was told. Stock bore, tsw pistons, etc. Looked fine and measured fine but we'll find out after bb&t takes a look.

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olerodder 12-16-2015 06:55 PM

Where you able to tell what the taper was?

lowflyn 12-16-2015 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olerodder (Post 2319914)
Where you able to tell what the taper was?

My micrometer wasn't good enough to really get a true number. BB&T should call this week with how it looks.

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scottydsntknow 12-16-2015 09:35 PM

Pic is bringing back memories...

ab_mach1 12-16-2015 10:24 PM

Building new motor for 7up
 
I'm following [emoji106]🏼 I love foxbody's lol.

+1 on TW 170 heads, but if you are really tight with a great machine shop, maybe getting a set of GT40 heads squared up will be your best option.

Do you have any plans for the engine bay, like setting up for show, like remove some emissions, wire tuck, etc?


...this is Azure BTW, I changed my member name.

lowflyn 12-17-2015 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcodemach1 (Post 2319975)
I'm following [emoji106]🏼 I love foxbody's lol.

+1 on TW 170 heads, but if you are really tight with a great machine shop, maybe getting a set of GT40 heads squared up will be your best option.

Do you have any plans for the engine bay, like setting up for show, like remove some emissions, wire tuck, etc?


...this is Azure BTW, I changed my member name.

Just going for a clean stock look. I'll spend several hours with degreaser and a pressure washer after pulling the motor.

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olerodder 12-17-2015 09:34 AM

Here is a flow chart of the OE Ford heads....interesting reading.

"Head to Head" - Flow Testing Small Block Ford Cylinder Heads - AFR, Brodix, Canfield, Edelbrock, Trick Flow, GT40 - FordMuscle

and although this Stan Weiss is a little outdated it even gives flow on the Coyote along with most other SBF, BBF and Mod motors.

Stan Weiss' - Cylinder Head Flow Data at 28 Inches of Water -- DFW / FLW Flow Files for use with Engine Simulation Software

lowflyn 12-23-2015 02:59 PM

Think I lucked up. Just came across a guy selling a running longblock with gt40 heads, E cam, all accessories for $500. Might come out cheaper than I thought.

Still building on the block currently at machine shop. Just plan on selling all extra items.

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scottydsntknow 12-23-2015 06:22 PM

Might be a good deal for sure. I'd be very wary but if its good then jump on it.

lowflyn 12-23-2015 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottydsntknow (Post 2321731)
Might be a good deal for sure. I'd be very wary but if its good then jump on it.

Teenage kid totalled his fox. Parting all that is left. Should be picking through what I want shortly. Will most likely resell what I can't use

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scottydsntknow 12-23-2015 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowflyn (Post 2321746)
Teenage kid totalled his fox. Parting all that is left. Should be picking through what I want shortly. Will most likely resell what I can't use

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Teenage kid in a fox... that was me... I should probably have totaled mine a few times too TBTH.

It might be worth it it might not. Problem is you don't know who built it and wth is going on with it other than "it runs".

lowflyn 12-23-2015 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottydsntknow (Post 2321754)
Teenage kid in a fox... that was me... I should probably have totaled mine a few times too TBTH.

It might be worth it it might not. Problem is you don't know who built it and wth is going on with it other than "it runs".

I'm buying it for heads, exhaust and suspension. Worth the asking price for that. I'll sell the shortblock and intakes plus any accessories I don't need

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07:18 PM

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