Ford vs. Toyota: Who Will Claim #1

[OsirisGuy]

Sarah A. Webster: Ford, Toyota in a close race to No. 1 | Detroit Free Press | Freep.com

Quote: Posted: Aug. 16, 2009 Ford, Toyota in a close race to No. 1 BY SARAH A. WEBSTER FREE PRESS AUTOMOTIVE EDITOR Toyota vs. Ford. Start getting used to the sound of that, because it's the new battle of titans in the auto industry. For years, we've all watched and wondered when Toyota would surpass GM as the world's largest automaker. That moment came and went earlier this year. In the meantime, the world got stuck in economic quicksand, forcing GM, Chrysler and dozens of suppliers into bankruptcy. The auto industry now emerging from that mess is, in many ways, an unfamiliar one -- especially considering how Ford's star is rising while Toyota's is falling. Toyota's soul-searching Make no mistake, there's trouble in Toyota City. The Japanese automaker has lost more than $4.8 billion over the past year. Toyota's critical U.S. sales are down 34% -- worse than the industry's 32% decline. As such, Toyota has lost a half point of market share this year, selling 16.3% of the new cars and trucks in America. Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda, the grandson of the company's founder, is now soul-searching about the company's back-to-basics strategy, while calling for $9.5 billion in cuts. Toyota even warned that it might not be profitable again until 2011. During a recent visit to Detroit, Japanese journalist Tomohiro Machiyama lamented to me how Toyota was suffering through its first Detroit-like spell of restructuring. Gains without taxpayer rescue By contrast, Ford already has endured years of cost-cutting and soul-searching, and it's starting to stand tall again. All without emergency tax dollars. Ford's U.S. sales are down by 28.5% this year, but that better-than-industry performance helped it pick up nearly a point of U.S. market share this year, for 15.5% of all sales. The truck leader is turning out passenger cars that are tops not just in quality but in styling and innovation, too. Ford's performance led it to post a profit of $2.3 billion in the second quarter, albeit mostly because of onetime accounting gains. But Ford is now in the black, earning $834 million through the first half. And unlike Toyota, which has lost top executives in recent years, the psychic momentum at Ford seems to be on the rise. While Ford isn't ready to celebrate, there's optimism in Dearborn, and more importantly, traffic in Ford's showrooms. Toyota-Ford nearly equal in U.S. At the end of July, just 7,284 vehicle sales this year stood between Toyota (945,321) and Ford (938,037) in the United States. Globally, Ford (5.5 million) has a longer way to go to catch up with Toyota (8.97 million), where Volkswagen (6.2 million) is also a major player. But more than any other American brand, Ford has the promise to be a world leader. No single GM or Chrysler brand has the global cachet that Ford brings to the showroom. The Toyota brand has long promised quality, but that promise means less when the number of problems per vehicle has leveled out among rivals. Ford today seems to stand for what Toyota and other automakers are hoping for: A comeback.

[SpectorV]

good to hear

[DarkShadow]

That's really very interesting, good find. I for one, am proud to own two Fords.

[SpectorV]

+1 I get tired of people thinking ford cars are POS's they seem astounded when I tell them out of my 3 mustangs none have ever had any thing major wrong with them and that their quality is as good if not better than Toyota... they seem to not believe me (brain washed)

[SVTCOBRA]

Good Ive always stood behind Ford and defended them, now all I need to know is how to buy Ford stock to support them even more. I am also glad to say I drive a Ford and that is all I will ever buy.

[OsirisGuy]

The 70's and 80's were bad times for all car manufacturers and that attitude has continued into the 21st century. It's a shame that people still think this way. Ford, Chrysler, GM are all trying to be top notch again but aren't given a chance.

It's nice to see actual numbers that will help disprove the idea that foreign is better.

Go Ford

[lowflyn]

Yupp...Ford makes some great vehicles that are finally starting to get their recognition.

My mom bought a new Taurus a few months ago and is constantly asked what car that is because they can't believe it's a Ford. She calls it Ford's greatest secret.

[SpectorV]

the taurus has a great interor as well and options that you usually dont fine but on a full luxury car not a hybrid type luxury style car

[Otlaw80]

Quote: Originally Posted by OsirisGuy ... Ford, Chrysler, GM are all trying to be top notch again but aren't given a chance. It's nice to see actual numbers that will help disprove the idea that foreign is better. Go Ford

You can thank our government and the media , in part, for the lack of a chance. How many times have you heard our "great" leader talk about the troubles of the "Big Three" american automakers, and how they need to reorganize to make quality vehicles like toyota and honda, etc. Makes me sick. Very few things in the political world get me so worked up as this does. Not to mention the tax breaks the government gives to factories if they import a certain percentage of things from outside the US. ??? WTF is that all about.

[upton7]

I'm one of the few ford, chevy, dodge fans I don't just dislike foriegn cars like toyota i have a passion for hating them nothing pisses me off more than when someone buys a foreign car. I don't care what company is number one as long as it is AMERICAN.
(If offended F*** YOU)

[MonteCitan]

Quote: Originally Posted by upton7 I'm one of the few ford, chevy, dodge fans I don't just dislike foriegn cars like toyota i have a passion for hating them nothing pisses me off more than when someone buys a foreign car. I don't care what company is number one as long as it is AMERICAN. (If offended F*** YOU)

Such blind hate aimed towards every import company..

I say just HONDA

[upton7]

Quote: Originally Posted by MonteCitan Such blind hate aimed towards every import company.. I say just HONDA

blind?

[wiarumas]

Quote: Originally Posted by upton7 I'm one of the few ford, chevy, dodge fans I don't just dislike foriegn cars like toyota i have a passion for hating them nothing pisses me off more than when someone buys a foreign car. I don't care what company is number one as long as it is AMERICAN. (If offended F*** YOU)

rubbish.

most foreign cars are made here in america. all those car companies you listed... ford, chevy dodge... those made equally if not more in other countries. its because in order for american companies to stay competitive in pricing due to unions, they need to outsource to cheap labor countries. meanwhile, car companies like honda are mostly made in places like ohio.

[upton7]

No they are assembled in america and the money goes over there

point dog

[DarkShadow]

Quote: Originally Posted by upton7 I'm one of the few ford, chevy, dodge fans I don't just dislike foriegn cars like toyota i have a passion for hating them nothing pisses me off more than when someone buys a foreign car. I don't care what company is number one as long as it is AMERICAN. (If offended F*** YOU)

...

Do you have any idea how many Mexicans...IN MEXICO your car employed for several hours on the assembly line?

Quote: Originally Posted by upton7 No they are assembled in america and the money goes over there point dog

No...the point of people being upset about outsourcing labor is the money AND MORE IMPORTANTLY JOBS stay "over there".

We will use Japan as an example since we are talking about Toyota. Japan should be pissed about having it's home brand car companies employing thousands of Americans rather than Japanese. Just like we are pissed that our home brands are built in other countries.

It's the jobs, not the money because effectively when labor and employment is what sucks up the majority of profit on anything assembled, it means whatever country owns the labor is getting the most money and economic boost out of it.

[SpectorV]

its all about profit, make no mistake. If they knew they could make 400% more profit by moving all of their factories out of America... they would.

[Greywolf]

+1. And faster than you could ever hope to clear that 1/4 mile in ANYONE's mustang

[SVTCOBRA]

Quote: Originally Posted by upton7 I'm one of the few ford, chevy, dodge fans I don't just dislike foriegn cars like toyota i have a passion for hating them nothing pisses me off more than when someone buys a foreign car. I don't care what company is number one as long as it is AMERICAN. (If offended F*** YOU)

I couldnt agree with you more .Youll have to kill me before Ill buy a foreign car, it is just the way I am wired.

[SaleenFiend]

Makes me proud to Bleed Ford Blue

[MonteCitan]

Quote: Originally Posted by upton7 blind?

Yes, blind

You hate the corporation as the 'money' goes overseas. But you don't think about what that money that 'goes overseas' does. It doesn't just stay there, yes it helps THEIR economy, but it helps ours as well

I'm not judging you, just about to present an argument that I can back up.. And trust me, I used to feel the same way back when I was about 19-20, wrenching on Fords - then went to college, minored in business, etc etc..

Read this through and consider it before simply dismissing this post or continuing to hate imports and their owners just because of the vehicles they wish to drive.

Using Toyota as an example also, since it seems to be the common theme:

Yes. Toyota has a majority of their company based in Japan, the majority of vehicle design is completed there and every lexus/scion vehicle (except RX) is built there but each of their major markets (Europe/China/US/etc) is their own cost center, with a LOT of the capital staying in those markets. (IE: how dealers work.. They buy from the manufacturer and resell.. In this case, each cost center buys from the manufacturer, then distributes them to the direct resellers)

The distribution network for imported Toyotas is EXTENSIVE with thousands employed at the ports, accessory install centers and railheads/distribution networks around the country

In the US example, over 6k american citizens are employed and work at the main HQ alone. Those are DIRECT employees, not counting thousands at the 13 regions (toyota)/4 areas (lexus) across the country, nor the thousands employed at plants/design centers/etc.. These are all US citizens and working for Toyota. Let me branch it out further

There are over 1500 Toyota/Lexus/Scion dealerships across the country, many of those employing over a hundred people, THOUSANDS of jobs created there.

Camry was recently listed as the 'Most American Vehicle' due to the majority of the vehicle's parts being sourced from US parts manufacturers. The car is even built in the US. Right there are thousands more employed indirectly by Toyota. The "all american truck," the F150, was lower on the list of US parts %age wise.

With the recent downturn in the economy.. Ford, GM and chrysler dumped american employees in droves - closing factories that were sitting idle, not building cars because they weren't moving from the car lots.. Toyota kept all their permanent employees, and instead of firing them, instead took the opportunity to train them, they spent their PAID days doing community service in their factories hometowns, improving quality of life, without losing their jobs.


Foreign cars aren't junk, neither are the companies. Your car was built in another country, the funds you used to purchase your car (or the original buyer if you bought used) went to Detroit, yes. But what did detroit do? They simply invested as much, or more of their income overseas, just as Toyota is doing with us.

Think of income you get. Yes you set some aside for future use, but for the most part you buy housing, food, and clothing, essentials needed for day-to-day survival, or in many cases improvement in your quality of life. In a corporation, there is the day to day survival costs AND the improvement of the operation of the company, and the quality of products delivered.. Income at a corporation turns back into the market, just as your income does, regardless of the home market.

/end rant

[MonteCitan]

And for what its worth, I was a ford tech for years, I haven't been without a ford product for more than 3 months in over 8 years now..

[upton7]

Who designs those vehicles?

(and over 50%-75% of my money goes toward vehicles if that mattered in your post.)

[MonteCitan]

Quote: Originally Posted by upton7 Who designs those vehicles? (and over 50%-75% of my money goes toward vehicles if that mattered in your post.)

More americans than you think work on design and support for Toyota products.

And that's cool about where your cash goes, I spend a lot on cars, too.

There are a lot of Ford, GM and Chrysler products that are designed overseas then have modified designs for N/A market (namely the best selling focus.. the fusion is based on an overseas engineered platform, the camaro is as well, no? the G8.. the list goes on and on..)

[upton7]

where do u get this info

[Otlaw80]

I'm not gonna quote, but thank you monte. That was very well explained. I learned something. I still don't like foreign cars, but not for the reason of money and such. Just cause i don't like them and they are usually a pain in the ass to fix and in my experience usually more expensive

[upton7]

I appreciate you trying to educate me and now i have a better understanding if all u said was true but nothing can change my love for american and hate for foreign. to your credit this post was the most respect i have ever shown for a foreign car.

[MonteCitan]

Quote: Originally Posted by upton7 I appreciate you trying to educate me and now i have a better understanding if all u said was true but nothing can change my love for american and hate for foreign. to your credit this post was the most respect i have ever shown for a foreign car.

I'm not trying to change your love for American cars, nor sway your opinion on Foreign.. I still own two American cars, no? I'm not 'trying to educate' you, either - I just happen to do a lot of research for my work.. So I'm sharing a little knowledge is all..

It's a global economy.. Money spent one place ends up in another..

And for reference, a few quickies:

GM Zeta platform - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The CD-3 platform is used for the Fusion, which iirc was first developed (in Japan) and used by Mazda in the Mazda 6 which was released several years before the fusion

Pontiac Vibe is a Toyota Matrix (though NUMMI is being shut down as GM backed out)

It's been widely known that the contour, then Focus were developed mostly in Europe (esp. the platform)

[OsirisGuy]

They took err jobs!

[DarkShadow]

Quote: Originally Posted by OsirisGuy They took err jobs!

Dey terk err derbs!

[bbunt302]

Quote: Originally Posted by DarkShadow Dey terk err derbs!

Deh tuk ur gurvs!

[SpectorV]

Dh o r vs!

[upton7]

lol

[OsirisGuy]

rabble rabble rabble

[wiarumas]

Globalization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[n8r]

Quote: Originally Posted by OsirisGuy They took err jobs!

Quote: Originally Posted by DarkShadow Dey terk err derbs!

Quote: Originally Posted by bbunt302 Deh tuk ur gurvs!

Quote: Originally Posted by SpectorV Dh o r vs!

Haha just saw that for the first time last night. Awesome.