2014 ABS hydraulic schematic (ABS bleed) - Mustang Evolution

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Old 06-12-2018, 06:04 AM   #1
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2014 ABS hydraulic schematic (ABS bleed)

I have the 2011 shop manual, has no schematic. I've looked at 100's of schematics from all kinds of cars, but am unsure if there is anything besides the the inlet/isolation and outlet/dump valve on our cars due to traction control. I know there is a pump, but also unsure of there is an accumulator and where in the circuit it is.

I bought AutoEnginuity to bleed my ABS, which is very soft after brembo swap, even after 3 full bleeds (and going out on road and getting ABS to kick in before 2 of them). It did not appear that MC went dry (took avery long time to get one of the banjo's back in though), but I am also going to pull that and bleed it first. I can feel brake pedal bottom out on floor if I push hard enough (brakes still work just OK, but pedal travel is huge)

Anyway, AI does not have an "ABS bleed procedure", it allows you to manually switch the pump on or off and seperately switch the state of each valve. Would like to see schematic in case there is something unqiue.

My thought was leave both valves open using pressure bleeder, then crack bleeder, then close bleeder. Turn on ABS pump and then crack bleeder again. Any thoughts on a bleed procedure??
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:22 AM   #2
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On a side note, when you're doing the bleedings, are you doing them manually where someone pushes down on the pedal to push the fluid? If so, going past about 3/4 pedal travel can damage the diaphragm in the MC and may explain your soft pedal - lack of hydraulic pressure rather than air bubbles. By all means, continue with the ABS bleed, as i dont want to encourage you to spend money on a new MC, but something to keep in the back of your mind.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:21 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
On a side note, when you're doing the bleedings, are you doing them manually where someone pushes down on the pedal to push the fluid? If so, going past about 3/4 pedal travel can damage the diaphragm in the MC and may explain your soft pedal - lack of hydraulic pressure rather than air bubbles. By all means, continue with the ABS bleed, as i dont want to encourage you to spend money on a new MC, but something to keep in the back of your mind.
I've had it to the floor a bunch of times. As mentioned, it will go to a solid stop, if I push down hard enough right now. I usually have the woman do the pedal part for manual bleeding (which will be tough to get here to only push 3/4th's of travel), but the pressure bleeder typically runs fluid through the system without touching brake pedal (it just seems to move much more fluid, faster if you also pump the brakes).

Anyway, hate to remove MC, bleed it, then run whole normal and ABS bleeding procedures, just to find out MC is no good.

What is the issue with MC, the bore not machined all the way?? Lets say you lose a hydraulic line when the car gets older. Pedal would surely be at or close to the floor (always was when I'd lose a line, especially if you lost front disks on a disk/drum setup). Does that mean if it ever happens, you have to replace MC also?
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:39 PM   #4
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I believe the issue isnt air getting in and damaging the MC, it's over extending the diaphragm when bleeding. I have never experienced this, nor known anyone who has, just a tidbit i picked up along the way... been way too long to remember when or where, maybe just disregard it until whatever you're currently trying doesnt work.
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:52 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
I believe the issue isnt air getting in and damaging the MC, it's over extending the diaphragm when bleeding. I have never experienced this, nor known anyone who has, just a tidbit i picked up along the way... been way too long to remember when or where, maybe just disregard it until whatever you're currently trying doesnt work.
Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that it was the air doing the damage, I was envsioning a spool type valve with O-rings that run into a poorly finished end of the ID in MC body, if you fully extended travel ( I have a cheaper 4 post lift that trashed the seals by running it to the very end of travel once, substantially past the top set of locks, so now I am more careful about how high I go near that top set of locks).

But if there is some kind of diaphram that has limited travel, then that would be a different story. I hate to go through all this with even the remote chance of MC damage. Since I have to take MC out to bleed it, might as well go new just in case. I always thought at least part of the reason MC's needed to be bench bled was that you may not get the full stroke to get all the air out if it is in the car (besides it taking forever to get air from MC completely out of brake lines doing manual bleeding, which would take forever).

The other issue is brake fluid isn't cheap. I was planning on trying this beast on a road course next fall (hence the brembo swap), so I am swapping out to Motul 600 and have spent over $150 on brake fluid already. I am going to switch back to Ford fluid for now, until I get this sorted, but even that is not too cheap.
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14 GT-Roush Phs 3, VMP 93 tune, Whiteline Sway Bars, Roush U/L Rear Control Arms, Street 18 X 9/10 Bullits with 295/255 NT05/555's-Track 18 X 8/10 Bullit's on 305/35R18 MT ET STR SS and 235/50ZR-18 Michelin PSS, 11.29 @ 125.43
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Old 06-13-2018, 06:01 AM   #6
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Yeah, Motul is awfully proud of their small $24 bottle haha...
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:13 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Yeah, Motul is awfully proud of their small $24 bottle haha...
Been getting it here.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/181857283017

So a little better price, but I've gone through 9 bottles already, with all these bleeds.
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14 GT-Roush Phs 3, VMP 93 tune, Whiteline Sway Bars, Roush U/L Rear Control Arms, Street 18 X 9/10 Bullits with 295/255 NT05/555's-Track 18 X 8/10 Bullit's on 305/35R18 MT ET STR SS and 235/50ZR-18 Michelin PSS, 11.29 @ 125.43
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:07 AM   #8
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Damn ... that's a good deal, i may need to get me some.
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Old 08-11-2018, 04:38 AM   #9
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So an update on this.

Never did get the Autoingenuity to work correctly to bleed the ABS.
Discussed it with the guy who writes the code (and he supposedly
worked for Ford for 15 years prior) and the best he could do for me
was to tell me to manually input a 2015 escape, at which point I
could run the ABS pump, but still not control any of the valves.
My 14 was "really" left over, and we surmise Ford switched to a 15
CAN module on the ABS, late in the 14 Stang run.

So I switched gears and got an Autel bi-directional scan tool for $1100.
Unlike the Autoingenuity, it has an ABS bleed procedure (instead of just
control of the pump and valves separately), which works fine. Ran this twice
and re-bled, with no change. I have 30 days to return this, not sure if I will
keep it or not. At least for that money, it will work on almost any car I or my
extended family owns (Autoingenuity is much less money, but you have
to buy each manufacturer seperately)

Friend found online that when bleeding rear brakes, you should actuate
emerg brake 5 times before bleeding.

http://luxjo.supermotors.net/MUSTANG.../IMG950189.jpg
http://luxjo.supermotors.net/MUSTANG.../IMG950190.jpg

So I tried that, no difference.

I also found a note in the 2011 Stang factory shop manual about MC damage
if actuating it dry, but I'm 99% sure I never ran reservoir dry (hence I
should not even be having this bleeding issue at all).

So I turned my attention to the MC anyway, as it was suggested
extended travel of MC could damage it internally (nothing about this in
the factory shop manual bleed procedure, but who knows). I made two plugs
to insert after removing brake lines and two fittings with lines to do a MC bleed,
before trying the plugs. Have not had a chance to mess with MC yet, but
hope to get to it this week.

So I'm a couple grand into this Brembo swap now, and I
really wish I had never touched the brakes. The stock brakes
were pretty horrible, I even had it at the dealer for them
to bleed them (as I felt even new they had too much pedal
travel), but they told me that is the way they are and many others
have confirmed the stock brakes are really not all that great.

I know a girl @ work that has a low mileage 13 Boss. I am going
to drive that across the parking lot next time she brings it in
to get an idea of how these brakes should feel. I still think doubling
the caliper piston area and doing nothing to the booster/MC, should increase
pedal travel significantly, but was told by several that a big increase in caliper stiffness
makes up for that, and Ford used the same MC on all 14 stangs, including
GT500.

Interesting that Ford uses the same MC on all 15+ stangs.

https://www.tascaparts.com/oem-parts...hoCJvsQAvD_BwE

and the stock GT 4 pistons that come on 15+, are monsters
compared to the 14 and down brembos.

http://luxjo.supermotors.net/MUSTANG...S/IMG_1562.JPG

Point being, that the difference between caliper piston area, between
15 up V6 (which uses 14 down GT 2 piston) and and 15 up GT 4 piston
is an even bigger jump, yet Ford still uses same MC on all 15's (actually,
just checked and they do change master on 6 piston Brembos). I've
driven stock 15+ 4 piston non Brembos and those brakes are
absolutely phenomenal.
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86 Capri, turbo, 3.27's-12.66 @ 107.75
14 GT-Roush Phs 3, VMP 93 tune, Whiteline Sway Bars, Roush U/L Rear Control Arms, Street 18 X 9/10 Bullits with 295/255 NT05/555's-Track 18 X 8/10 Bullit's on 305/35R18 MT ET STR SS and 235/50ZR-18 Michelin PSS, 11.29 @ 125.43
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Old 04-08-2019, 05:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
I believe the issue isnt air getting in and damaging the MC, it's over extending the diaphragm when bleeding. I have never experienced this, nor known anyone who has, just a tidbit i picked up along the way... been way too long to remember when or where, maybe just disregard it until whatever you're currently trying doesnt work.
Just to put this myth to bed. I swapped MC for a new one just in
case. MC uses internal O-rings, two for primary and secondary
each. There is no way to cause damage to these O-rings by
bottoming out MC. Here's some pics. (I also briefly swapped in
an S550 PP MC to try it out, so some of the pics are S197 MC
vs that S550 PP MC).

The pistons go spring end in first. You can see there is nothing on
the other end of piston to damage any seal. It's smooth and uniform all
the way. The primary seals are so far in, you can't damage them from secondary piston
(or vice versa, I always forget which is which).



Better view of pistons. Oddly, S550 PP MC is much longer overall VS
S197 MC.




Hard to see, but seals are down in there. I pulled a couple out
just to see them.



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86 Capri, turbo, 3.27's-12.66 @ 107.75
14 GT-Roush Phs 3, VMP 93 tune, Whiteline Sway Bars, Roush U/L Rear Control Arms, Street 18 X 9/10 Bullits with 295/255 NT05/555's-Track 18 X 8/10 Bullit's on 305/35R18 MT ET STR SS and 235/50ZR-18 Michelin PSS, 11.29 @ 125.43
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