11-14 V6 vs V8 for road racing, endurance racing, etc.

4871 Views 15 Replies 5 Participants Last post by Siber Express, Nov 18, 2019

DudeStang

Discussion Starter · Nov 4, 2019 (Edited)

So I've seen the V6 vs. V8 conversation play out ad nauseum when it comes to modding/forced induction/trying to make good power. I understand that bang for buck, because of all the things you'd have to upgrade, it usually ends up making more sense to upgrade to a GT as opposed to throwing money at a V6. What I'm wondering is, for doing something like road course racing or even endurance racing, does anyone here have any experience running a V6 Mustang (thinking of the 11-14 but other model years, or the ecoboost S550s would be interesting to hear about) in this type of series or any other similar type or racing.

I've seen some 11-14 base Mustangs at autocross events and they seemed to do pretty well for the most part, at least compared to other similar class cars but I'm wondering if the money saved buying a V6, specifically for weekend road course racing, would make sense.

-300 HP seems more than sufficient for getting started in road racing and I would imagine there's at least some weight savings to be found in the GT vs the base, assuming options are equal.
-You can find a number of 11-14 base Mustangs with decent mileage in the $10-11k range, some even cheaper. The cheapest 11-14 GTs start around $15k but that's only a few (with under 100k miles) and you start to see a lot more for $17k and up (I'm basing this on some quick autotrader searches). Perhaps the money saved on the price of the car could go towards tires, brake pads, and initial suspension mods
-the unknowns for me are brakes and suspension - I need to do some more googling because I'm not sure how different the base is from the GT

Open to hearing reasons why I'm wrong or (hopefully) partially right.

TL;DR: If one was looking for a RWD car with decent power for an affordable price, specifically for doing road racing, an 11-14 V6 seems like a pretty decent, slightly more economical option.

I have a GT that I'm planning on keeping for the foreseeable future but I'm interested in buying a weekend racer that I am less paranoid about driving at the limit. For a long time, I've considered SN95/New Edge Stangs and maybe some early model S197s but have been considering the newer V6 option and wanted to get some thoughts from other Mustang folks. Thanks.

EDIT: mods, if this needs to be moved to another sub-forum, please feel free to do so. In retrospect, I'm thinking maybe this should be in the track sub-forum. Thanks.

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1 - 16 of 16 Posts

Siber Express

· #2 · Nov 4, 2019

2

I bought my V6 as a Mountain car, better balanced than the GT and truthfully there are not to many people that have kept up on 4 wheels when and if I ever pushed it up on the Skyway or Dragon.
My car has been leveled .7/1.2 and does have Brembo fronts and 13-14 GT500 rears.
The couple of times I autocross it it even beat the RT Chargers and Challengers as well as the rear wheel drive V6 cars. Only thing that got me was the Subie and I think he was lying about being under 400 HP.
BTW mine was a Performance Package to start with so I had upgraded front and rear sway bars and Lower control arms to start with and is sitting on Koni Sports and Vogtland GT springs.

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straybullitt

· #3 · Nov 6, 2019

Get a V8!
Just don't drive it at it's limits until you feel comfortable.... It won't take long.

I like my New Edge Bullitt because it is inexpensive and relatively light. It could use some more power though.
I've actually been toying around with the idea of getting a full-fledged, legitimate, vintage race car, rather than spending more money on the Mustang.

Whatever you decide, your very first "modification" should be either the stickiest street tires that are available, or a set of racing slicks. I highly recommend the latter.... A set of Hoosiers will make any car feel like a race car!

DudeStang

Discussion Starter · #4 · Nov 7, 2019

straybullitt said:
Get a V8!
Just don't drive it at it's limits until you feel comfortable.... It won't take long.

I like my New Edge Bullitt because it is inexpensive and relatively light. It could use some more power though.
I've actually been toying around with the idea of getting a full-fledged, legitimate, vintage race car, rather than spending more money on the Mustang.

Whatever you decide, your very first "modification" should be either the stickiest street tires that are available, or a set of racing slicks. I highly recommend the latter.... A set of Hoosiers will make any car feel like a race car!

I already have a 2014 GT....I'm trying to weigh to possibility of going with another Mustang for a car that I'm more willing to beat the piss out of on track days.

straybullitt

· #5 · Nov 7, 2019

I understand.
I just think that you will be disappointed with the V6 after a while. Especially since you already own a GT. Nothing against the Cyclone powered cars.... It is a great engine.

straybullitt

· #6 · Nov 7, 2019

Siber Express said:
I bought my V6 as a Mountain car, better balanced than the GT and truthfully there are not to many people that have kept up on 4 wheels when and if I ever pushed it up on the Skyway or Dragon.
My car has been leveled .7/1.2 and does have Brembo fronts and 13-14 GT500 rears.
The couple of times I autocross it it even beat the RT Chargers and Challengers as well as the rear wheel drive V6 cars. Only thing that got me was the Subie and I think he was lying about being under 400 HP.
BTW mine was a Performance Package to start with so I had upgraded front and rear sway bars and Lower control arms to start with and is sitting on Koni Sports and Vogtland GT springs.

I can't remember, what is the top speed limited to on a Cyclone with the stock drive shaft Siber?

Siber Express

· #7 · Nov 7, 2019

straybullitt said:
I can't remember, what is the top speed limited to on a Cyclone with the stock drive shaft Siber?

Can't tell you that, but the Speed limiter was set on the V6 to the stock 17 inch tires at 116.
I don't have a Speed limiter since I don't have the 17 tires or the driveshaft that came in the car :whistling:

peterj46

· #8 · Nov 8, 2019

DudeStang said:
So I've seen the V6 vs. V8 conversation play out ad nauseum when it comes to modding/forced induction/trying to make good power. I understand that bang for buck, because of all the things you'd have to upgrade, it usually ends up making more sense to upgrade to a GT as opposed to throwing money at a V6. What I'm wondering is, for doing something like road course racing or even endurance racing, does anyone here have any experience running a V6 Mustang (thinking of the 11-14 but other model years, or the ecoboost S550s would be interesting to hear about) in this type of series or any other similar type or racing.

I've seen some 11-14 base Mustangs at autocross events and they seemed to do pretty well for the most part, at least compared to other similar class cars but I'm wondering if the money saved buying a V6, specifically for weekend road course racing, would make sense.

-300 HP seems more than sufficient for getting started in road racing and I would imagine there's at least some weight savings to be found in the GT vs the base, assuming options are equal.
-You can find a number of 11-14 base Mustangs with decent mileage in the $10-11k range, some even cheaper. The cheapest 11-14 GTs start around $15k but that's only a few (with under 100k miles) and you start to see a lot more for $17k and up (I'm basing this on some quick autotrader searches). Perhaps the money saved on the price of the car could go towards tires, brake pads, and initial suspension mods
-the unknowns for me are brakes and suspension - I need to do some more googling because I'm not sure how different the base is from the GT

Open to hearing reasons why I'm wrong or (hopefully) partially right.

TL;DR: If one was looking for a RWD car with decent power for an affordable price, specifically for doing road racing, an 11-14 V6 seems like a pretty decent, slightly more economical option.

I have a GT that I'm planning on keeping for the foreseeable future but I'm interested in buying a weekend racer that I am less paranoid about driving at the limit. For a long time, I've considered SN95/New Edge Stangs and maybe some early model S197s but have been considering the newer V6 option and wanted to get some thoughts from other Mustang folks. Thanks.

EDIT: mods, if this needs to be moved to another sub-forum, please feel free to do so. In retrospect, I'm thinking maybe this should be in the track sub-forum. Thanks.

Road racing may be different, but SCCA puts all late model Mustangs in the same stock class. That means 305 HP 6s, GTs, Boss 302s, and the gamut of IRS Mustangs as well. At least as of two years ago, the last we ran SCCA autocross with our 2014 V6 with performance package. My wife and I were consistent back makers - but it sure was fun.

straybullitt

· #9 · Nov 8, 2019 (Edited)

peterj46 said:
Road racing may be different, but SCCA puts all late model Mustangs in the same stock class. That means 305 HP 6s, GTs, Boss 302s, and the gamut of IRS Mustangs as well. At least as of two years ago, the last we ran SCCA autocross with our 2014 V6 with performance package. My wife and I were consistent back makers - but it sure was fun.

Yes. The SCCA puts similar cars with widely varying horsepower ratings into the same classes.
I've found that horsepower isn't necessarily an advantage for many drivers....On a autocross course anyway.
The fastest cars don't even have a horsepower number that would be particularly impressive by today's standard... They are usually the lightest cars with a decent horsepower-to-weight ratio.
In the autocross series that I used to race in, there used to be 3 or 4 Manx-style, Volkswagen-powered dune buggies that were FAST! And they were a lot of fun to watch!

A person can go out and have a heck of a lot of fun in just about anything. Doesn't matter if you are fast or not. It's just fun to go out and blast around. :thumb:

The main reason for me recommending the GT, to the OP, is he mentioned doing some track events, endurance racing in particular, that requires higher speeds, and increased safety equipment requirements than autocross/solo does. In my mind, if you are going to spend thousands of dollars to prepare a car for wheel-to-wheel track racing, it is better to do it to a car that you won't ''outgrow" for a while.
Not sure if that level of racing is what he had in mind, though.

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DudeStang

Discussion Starter · #10 · Nov 12, 2019

straybullitt said:
I understand.
I just think that you will be disappointed with the V6 after a while. Especially since you already own a GT. Nothing against the Cyclone powered cars.... It is a great engine.

I understand your point and it's definitely something I would take into consideration but my thought process is that going with a V6, which has comparable (or more) power to older model V8 Mustangs, I might get more bang for the buck while enjoying newer car reliability (in theory), better fuel consumption, and by spending less on the car itself initially, would be able to have more money for track days, tires, and suspension mods.

peterj46 said:
Road racing may be different, but SCCA puts all late model Mustangs in the same stock class. That means 305 HP 6s, GTs, Boss 302s, and the gamut of IRS Mustangs as well. At least as of two years ago, the last we ran SCCA autocross with our 2014 V6 with performance package. My wife and I were consistent back makers - but it sure was fun.

Thanks for raising this. I remember there being base model Mustangs in my class in SCCA in autocross a few years ago. Taking this into consideration, I think one question I should be asking is how reliable is the cyclone engine in stock or slightly modded form. I'll have to do some searching to see if there are V6 Mustangs keeping up with V8 Mustangs in various racing series.

straybullitt said:
Yes. The SCCA puts similar cars with widely varying horsepower ratings into the same classes.
I've found that horsepower isn't necessarily an advantage for many drivers....On a autocross course anyway.
The fastest cars don't even have a horsepower number that would be particularly impressive by today's standard... They are usually the lightest cars with a decent horsepower-to-weight ratio.
In the autocross series that I used to race in, there used to be 3 or 4 Manx-style, Volkswagen-powered dune buggies that were FAST! And they were a lot of fun to watch!

A person can go out and have a heck of a lot of fun in just about anything. Doesn't matter if you are fast or not. It's just fun to go out and blast around. :thumb:

The main reason for me recommending the GT, to the OP, is he mentioned doing some track events, endurance racing in particular, that requires higher speeds, and increased safety equipment requirements than autocross/solo does. In my mind, if you are going to spend thousands of dollars to prepare a car for wheel-to-wheel track racing, it is better to do it to a car that you won't ''outgrow" for a while.
Not sure if that level of racing is what he had in mind, though.

Again, I understand and appreciate your points. Your comments about just going out and having fun are pretty much in line with how I try to think about racing...I don't necessarily need the fastest car because I'm not the most experienced driver. The better value I can get out of whichever car I pick for a weekend racer, the more actual seat time and practice I can get.

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Siber Express

· #11 · Nov 12, 2019

Car and Driver in 2011 had the Mustang GT and the V6 in its Lightning Lap at VIR, the GT ran a 3:08.6 vs the V6 that ran 3:12.5 Bouncing off of the Speed Limiter down the back stretch. Even though it was against the Speed Limiter the V6 still beat the times of the 2010 Mustang GT by almost a full second.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23319884/lightning-lap-times-historical-data/

David Young

· #12 · Nov 13, 2019

Siber Express said:
Car and Driver in 2011 had the Mustang GT and the V6 in its Lightning Lap at VIR, the GT ran a 3:08.6 vs the V6 that ran 3:12.5 Bouncing off of the Speed Limiter down the back stretch. Even though it was against the Speed Limiter the V6 still beat the times of the 2010 Mustang GT by almost a full second.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23319884/lightning-lap-times-historical-data/

This is why 'I' believe Ford put the speed limiter on the v6, because it would have beat or have been too close to the GT times in many races like this. Just my opinion

DudeStang

Discussion Starter · #13 · Nov 13, 2019

Siber Express said:
Car and Driver in 2011 had the Mustang GT and the V6 in its Lightning Lap at VIR, the GT ran a 3:08.6 vs the V6 that ran 3:12.5 Bouncing off of the Speed Limiter down the back stretch. Even though it was against the Speed Limiter the V6 still beat the times of the 2010 Mustang GT by almost a full second.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23319884/lightning-lap-times-historical-data/

Interesting...thanks for sharing.

straybullitt

· #14 · Nov 15, 2019

DudeStang said:
Thanks for raising this. I remember there being base model Mustangs in my class in SCCA in autocross a few years ago. Taking this into consideration, I think one question I should be asking is how reliable is the cyclone engine in stock or slightly modded form. I'll have to do some searching to see if there are V6 Mustangs keeping up with V8 Mustangs in various racing series.

I would think that the Cyclone should be as reliable as any other engine. Maybe more so. The only problems, that I have ever heard, seem to be minor things like the water pump.... Maybe some of the other members who actually own one can elaborate.

DudeStang

Discussion Starter · #15 · Nov 18, 2019

straybullitt said:
I would think that the Cyclone should be as reliable as any other engine. Maybe more so. The only problems, that I have ever heard, seem to be minor things like the water pump.... Maybe some of the other members who actually own one can elaborate.

More specifically, I guess I was thinking in terms of how well they hold up under abuse but yeah, I should probably do some digging on the V6 specific forums or sub-forums.

Siber Express

· #16 · Nov 18, 2019

Mines holding up well for being a mostly corner carving mountain car. 72,000 and not a problem.

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